Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tiberius]

26 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Rule number one is don't believe your own propaganda.  If you want to believe Ukraine is "winning" then be my guest.  Reality I expect is much different.  But that aside, the fundamental problem with your view here is the US has no strategic interest in Ukraine outside of a desire of some actors inside our government intent on containing or weakening Russia.  As Loydd Austin admitted.  Focusing on Russia is a major policy error out of Washington.  As the major threat is China.  If threats against the US Speaker of the House don't make that clear, then I expect nothing will.  In my opinion obsessing over Russia and close to ignoring China is perhaps the biggest policy error committed by Washington in the history of the nation.  It ignores the most vital interests and the biggest threat.    

 

What targeting Russia has resulted in is a 2 on 1 arrangement with China and Russia vs. the US.  Biden attempted, and failed, to alter this arrangement by meeting with Chinese leadership and pleading his case with Xi.  But the Chinese know the game too.  They clearly see the US as the number one threat to their ambitions, not Russia. Xi was not receptive to an arrangement with Biden and the US against Russia.  Now we're odd-man-out in the game.  Being the odd-man-out is a clear disadvantage.    

 

A strategic alternative of a policy of engaging with Russia would have put the US in a position to contain China or at a minimum exert more leverage.  I believe Russia would have been receptive to such an arrangement, establishing a 2 on 1 deal with the US vs. China.  For very little of any significance.  Getting Russia, OPEC, other producers to act against China or at least present the capacity to do so to Bejing.  And save Europe from social and economic disaster caused by sanctions.  Along with other consequences such as food shortages and higher prices.  And facilitating a peaceful resolution and avoiding conflict in Ukraine.  Such an arrangement would have left China as odd-man-out.  But at this point it's an opportunity lost.   

 

      

 

The good thing is Putin's military is being smashed all up. 

 

Alternitive? You mean just let Russia murder the nation of Ukraine and perform genocide? No. Putin is losing 

[L Ron Burgundy]

So anyone see the castration video?  Probably the #1 thing I regret looking at online ever.  And it's definitely not the first time it happened.   The Ukrainians should take the gloves off now.  They've mostly followed the rules of war thus far.   Unreal.   Stuff like this keeps coming out I wonder if other countries won't step in.

 

I highly doubt Russia will make any attempt to arrest the scum that are doing those things.

[Tiberius]

Ships carrying grain have cleared the port at Odessa. God speed to the brave crews manning those ships

 

 

https://www.axios.com/2022/08/01/first-ukraine-grain-ship-departs-odessa-turkey-says

 

A ship carrying grain left Ukraine's port of Odesa on the Black Sea on Monday.

Why it matters: The Sierra Leone-flagged cargo ship the Razoni is the first vessel to leave a Ukrainian port under an agreement between Ukraine and Russia, which was brokered by the United Nations with the help of Turkey.

Russian military blockades of Ukrainian ports have worsened a growing global food crisis, particularly in African countries, Axios' Dave Lawler notes.

Details: The Razoni is carrying more than 26,000 tons of corn and was due to arrive in Turkish territorial waters on Tuesday before "proceeding to its final destination in Tripoli, Lebanon," according to a UN statement.

Ukrainian Infrastructure Minister Oleksandr Kubrakov tweeted that the Razoni is the first such ship to leave Odessa since Russia's military began its invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24.

What they're saying: A spokesperson for UN Secretary-General António Guterres in a statement welcomed the departure of the first vessel to leave Ukraine under the Black Sea Grain Initiative signed in Istanbul last month.

[Big Blitz]

 

 

The Left doesn't want you to know their definition of democracy.  

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

The Left doesn't want you to know their definition of democracy.  

Its all conditional on the result rather than the means and methods of democracy.  That would be when they win its all good.  When they lose democracy is at risk. 

 

So they are therefore obligated to break any and all rules, ethical and moral limits, cheat as required, in order to win the election, in order to protect democracy, democracy must be suspended.  All while rationalizing and blaming and finger pointing and saying the other guys are doing what they doing.  But the liberals do it in the pursuit of "good", their opposition in the pursuit of "evil" and "hate". 

 

Its quite a fantasy they've created but I think the rest of the country has had enough of this crap.  

[Big Blitz]

There never was a "war" or fiery ordeal 

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[JDHillFan]

12 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

There never was a "war" or fiery ordeal 

 

 

Tiberius declaring the NYT to be Putin stooges any minute now. That is, if he’s consistent. 

[Tiberius]

39 minutes ago, JDHillFan said:

Tiberius declaring the NYT to be Putin stooges any minute now. That is, if he’s consistent. 

No, but sort of wondering how Biden threw anyone under the bus there. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, JDHillFan said:

Tiberius declaring the NYT to be Putin stooges any minute now. That is, if he’s consistent. 

 

He doesn't need to. The quoted article is an op-ed, not a news story. The big red "Opinion" caption gives it away. 

[BillStime]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

No, but sort of wondering how Biden threw anyone under the bus there. 

 

Jordan told them so, duh.

 

Catch up Tibs

[Tiberius]

 

[JDHillFan]

1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

He doesn't need to. The quoted article is an op-ed, not a news story. The big red "Opinion" caption gives it away. 

Wow. I had no idea Tom Friedman was an opinion columnist or that the “Paper of Record” printed such writing. Thanks for the good info!

 

Is that the same Tom Friedman that Biden summoned to the White House for an off the record lunch? I think it might be because there is also a big red “Opinion” caption on this article. 
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/opinion/biden-trump-republicans-democrats.html

[B-Man]

QUESTION ASKED: Why Is the White House Quietly Griping about Zelensky Now?

 

Which Biden administration official is leaking to the New York Times’ Tom Friedman that the White House doesn’t trust Volodymyr Zelensky?

 

The timing could not be worse. Dear reader: The Ukraine war is not over. And privately, U.S. officials are a lot more concerned about Ukraine’s leadership than they are letting on. There is deep mistrust between the White House and Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky — considerably more than has been reported.

 

And there is funny business going on in Kyiv. On July 17, Zelensky fired his country’s prosecutor general and the leader of its domestic intelligence agency — the most significant shake-up in his government since the Russian invasion in February. It would be the equivalent of Biden firing Merrick Garland and Bill Burns on the same day. But I have still not seen any reporting that convincingly explains what that was all about. It is as if we don’t want to look too closely under the hood in Kyiv for fear of what corruption or antics we might see, when we have invested so much there. (More on the dangers of that another day.)

 

Your mileage may vary, but I see two possible motives here.

 

Possibility one is that the Biden administration just wants the Ukraine-Russia war to end, and Zelensky isn’t playing ball, so the administration is getting ready to leave Zelensky hanging out to dry.

 

Possibility two is that the administration foresees the Ukraine-Russia war going badly, and is preparing to use Zelensky as a scapegoat. They’re laying the groundwork to argue, “we did everything we could to help the Ukrainians defend themselves, but in the end, they were too incompetent, too corrupt, and too beset by infighting.”

 

 

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/why-is-the-white-house-quietly-griping-about-zelensky-now/

 

 

 

[PetermansRedemption]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

QUESTION ASKED: Why Is the White House Quietly Griping about Zelensky Now?

 

Which Biden administration official is leaking to the New York Times’ Tom Friedman that the White House doesn’t trust Volodymyr Zelensky?

 

The timing could not be worse. Dear reader: The Ukraine war is not over. And privately, U.S. officials are a lot more concerned about Ukraine’s leadership than they are letting on. There is deep mistrust between the White House and Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky — considerably more than has been reported.

 

And there is funny business going on in Kyiv. On July 17, Zelensky fired his country’s prosecutor general and the leader of its domestic intelligence agency — the most significant shake-up in his government since the Russian invasion in February. It would be the equivalent of Biden firing Merrick Garland and Bill Burns on the same day. But I have still not seen any reporting that convincingly explains what that was all about. It is as if we don’t want to look too closely under the hood in Kyiv for fear of what corruption or antics we might see, when we have invested so much there. (More on the dangers of that another day.)

 

Your mileage may vary, but I see two possible motives here.

 

Possibility one is that the Biden administration just wants the Ukraine-Russia war to end, and Zelensky isn’t playing ball, so the administration is getting ready to leave Zelensky hanging out to dry.

 

Possibility two is that the administration foresees the Ukraine-Russia war going badly, and is preparing to use Zelensky as a scapegoat. They’re laying the groundwork to argue, “we did everything we could to help the Ukrainians defend themselves, but in the end, they were too incompetent, too corrupt, and too beset by infighting.”

 

 

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/why-is-the-white-house-quietly-griping-about-zelensky-now/

 

 

 

Shocking that we couldn't trust a country that grades extremely poorly on the corruption index. For 2021 Ukraine ranked 122, barely ahead of the enemy of Democracy itself, Russia, which ranks 136.

Edited August 3, 2022 by PetermansRedemption

[SoCal Deek]

I’ll say it again: where are the world’s diplomats? These two sides have punched themselves silly for six months. Enough already! It’s way past time for the adults to step in and break this up. 

[meazza]

5 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ll say it again: where are the world’s diplomats? These two sides have punched themselves silly for six months. Enough already! It’s way past time for the adults to step in and break this up. 

 

You mean like when Russia agreed to let grain shipments go through via an agreement and yet still decided to bomb the port where the grain was passing?

 

This feels like an Israel - Palestine discussion in which everyone is harping on Israel to stop retaliating to rocket fire.  

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, meazza said:

 

You mean like when Russia agreed to let grain shipments go through via an agreement and yet still decided to bomb the port where the grain was passing?

 

This feels like an Israel - Palestine discussion in which everyone is harping on Israel to stop retaliating to rocket fire.  

I'm trying to understand your comment....but I have to say that I don't. 

[meazza]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

I'm trying to understand your comment....but I have to say that I don't. 

 

My point is that the Ukranians will be easier to control but there is no guarantee that the Russians will abide to any agreement.  

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, meazza said:

 

My point is that the Ukranians will be easier to control but there is no guarantee that the Russians will abide to any agreement.  

 

 

Thanks....and I think everyone would agree with you there. But that doesn't mean that it isn't time for some serious diplomacy. What's the alternative?  Just keep bombing and killing, bombing and killing? I sure hope not.