Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tiberius]

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

On 5/9/2022 at 10:39 PM, PetermansRedemption said:

How much is too much? Do we just keep giving to Ukraine until Putin leaves. I understand an initial round of weapons, but an indefinite check seems awfully fiscally irresponsible. 

If there's one thing the Washington war machine is great at its exaggerating and producing lots of melodrama associated with the threat assessments they provide to the public through the various media outlets.  Which pump it up to the max.  All kinds of dangers posed by all kinds of players and countries out to harm "American interests"  I recall the hype around the dangers that Saddam's Iraq provided as the "world's 4th largest army".  How'd that go exactly? 

 

I think that's the case here with Russia.  Does the true threat posed by Russia as demonstrated by their disastrous performance in Ukraine justify all the defense spending, troops in Europe or even NATO itself?  The U.S. spends over $800B and Russia about 10% of that.  And as demonstrated in combat our weapons systems and military branches are superior to anything they've shown to date.  It seems unimaginable that Russia which can't even handle Ukraine has any capability to muster any sizable opposition to NATO or even American forces on their own.  Their weapons and tactics appear to be obsolete, their military is poorly trained and unmotivated, their chain of command, organization, and troop discipline seems non-existent, and even being right next door to Ukraine their logistics operations with troops and supplies are dysfunctional.  

 

Now I'm not downplaying the real death and suffering Russia has imposed on Ukraine and its people but that hardly equates to an existential threat to the United States.  And while lots of people are pounding the table about the virtues of protecting democracy everywhere the hard truth is, moral and ethical arguments aside, that whatever the outcome here there will be no material impact to life in America thousands of miles away across the Atlantic. 

 

And Finland and Sweden joining NATO seems like piling on.  Is Russia a threat to them?  It seems ridiculous that Russia would have aspirations or plans of invading Europe in some kind of massive assault.  The belief they could somehow succeed in occupying, controlling, and ruling over Western Europe is comical.  But if you want to spend $800B plus on weapons and other systems and personnel and project power across the planet you have to justify it by identifying enemies, real, imagined, and exaggerated.  It also doesn't hurt to beat the patriotic drum when necessary to garner lots of support and marginalize dissenters.  

[Big Blitz]

I was told there are no nazis in Ukraine 

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

I'm glad some Republicans went to Ukraine. Too bad there couldn't be a bi-partisan visit, but such are the times 

[Tiberius]

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

13 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

 

Now I'm not downplaying the real death and suffering Russia has imposed on Ukraine and its people but that hardly equates to an existential threat to the United States.  And while lots of people are pounding the table about the virtues of protecting democracy everywhere the hard truth is, moral and ethical arguments aside, that whatever the outcome here there will be no material impact to life in America thousands of miles away across the Atlantic. 

 

 

This is a logical, well written, and persuasive talking point.  Do you any actual evidence for it though?

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

 

This is where thinking moves into the realm of idiots.  Useful idiots.  An elected representative that exercises their Constitutional and democratic rights governing the rules, processes, and procedures of the Senate in order to question and scrutinize policy and spending decisions along with requesting the executive branch to demonstrate justification and oversight for such initiatives is NOT a traitor.  Dissent and criticism are not treason.  They're basic elements of the democratic process.  And they're not conditional on whether or not you or I or anyone else likes it or not.  Including this tool Jon Cooper.  If you check he's probably on the payroll of some big defense contractor or some think tank or lobby funded by them. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

12 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

This is where thinking moves into the realm of idiots.  Useful idiots.  An elected representative that exercises their Constitutional and democratic rights governing the rules, processes, and procedures of the Senate in order to question and scrutinize policy and spending decisions along with requesting the executive branch to demonstrate justification and oversight for such initiatives is NOT a traitor.  Dissent and criticism are not treason.  They're basic elements of the democratic process.  And they're not conditional on whether or not you or I or anyone else likes it or not.  Including this tool Jon Cooper.  If you check he's probably on the payroll of some big defense contractor or some think tank or lobby funded by them. 

Russia is thankful for his obstruction of the war effort. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Russia is thankful for his obstruction of the war effort. 

So you're good with determining what conversations and views are acceptable and which are unacceptable in America based on how those view might align in some way with perceived Russian interests?  

[Tiberius]

50 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So you're good with determining what conversations and views are acceptable and which are unacceptable in America based on how those view might align in some way with perceived Russian interests?  

Just calling it like it is 

[All_Pro_Bills]

11 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Just calling it like it is 

Like it is, is if the driver or objective of an action (like the need for fiscal accountability and open debate about defining goals and objectives) produces some hint or view expressed by war advocates that it might "help" Russia, then elected representatives and the public at-large should all keep their mouths shut and go along with the program.  That's very undemocratic.

[Tiberius]

 

[ALF]

McDonald's to leave Russia for good after 30 years

 

McDonald's has said it will permanently leave Russia after more than 30 years and has started to sell its restaurants.

The move comes after it temporarily closed its 850 outlets in March.

 

The fast food giant said it made the decision because of the "humanitarian crisis" and "unpredictable operating environment" caused by the Ukraine war.

 

The chain said its priorities included seeking to ensure its 62,000 employees in Russia continued to be paid until any sale was completed and that they had "future employment with any potential buyer".

McDonald's said it would write off a charge of up to $1.4bn (£1.1bn) to cover the exit from its investment.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61463876

 

Good , the Russian people can thank Putin

 

A comment to this article : NATO's top recruiter - Putin is employee of the month!

Edited May 17, 2022 by ALF

[Tiberius]

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

4 hours ago, ALF said:

McDonald's to leave Russia for good after 30 years

 

McDonald's has said it will permanently leave Russia after more than 30 years and has started to sell its restaurants.

The move comes after it temporarily closed its 850 outlets in March.

 

The fast food giant said it made the decision because of the "humanitarian crisis" and "unpredictable operating environment" caused by the Ukraine war.

 

The chain said its priorities included seeking to ensure its 62,000 employees in Russia continued to be paid until any sale was completed and that they had "future employment with any potential buyer".

McDonald's said it would write off a charge of up to $1.4bn (£1.1bn) to cover the exit from its investment.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61463876

 

Good , the Russian people can thank Putin

 

A comment to this article : NATO's top recruiter - Putin is employee of the month!

 

Not for nothing, I'd push to keep Mickey D's in Russia.  All they serve is heart disease, obesity and diabetes.

[Tenhigh]

On 5/15/2022 at 8:32 AM, Tiberius said:

 

What makes him a traitor?

[Tiberius]

Just now, Tenhigh said:

What makes him a traitor?

Giving Putin a helping hand 

[Tenhigh]

Just now, Tiberius said:

Giving Putin a helping hand 

I love you, Tibs, but this is just stupid, like Billstime Trump stupid.   

[Tiberius]

16 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

I love you, Tibs, but this is just stupid, like Billstime Trump stupid.   

Just the truth, that's all. 

 

And thanks for comparing me to Billstime  

[Tenhigh]

6 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Just the truth, that's all. 

 

And thanks for comparing me to Billstime  

Just to clarify your stance here, you are saying it's traitorous to require oversight of the billions of dollars in aid that the US is funneling into a country that was too corrupt to get into NATO?

And that guy is a bot, you shouldn't want to be compared to him.  I have SEEN you exercise independent thought in this very thread.