Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Magox]

There is so much propaganda and disinformation from both sides it’s hard to know what is true or not, specially so war time propaganda.

 

With that said, it’s pretty clear Russia miscalculated.  They thought this was going to be a Crimea Redux, where they would roll in and it would be a lay down within a few days.   Not only did they miscalculate their Military efforts but they underestimated the response by the rest of the world and now their economy is in tatters.   
 

It will take a decade for them to recover.

[Big Blitz]

6 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Who is the Left in this example? The UN? The pentagon?  The rest of the known world outside of Russia?  

 

Olivia Dalton.  And every Psaki presser.  The Left is using this accusation (disinformation) ad nauseam since Covid and its by design.   

 

 

6 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

 

Do you think Lavrovs claims about US biowarfare in Ukraine are credible?

 

 

Speaking of Covid.  If I believe our government deliberately lied about Covid for 2 years (everyone but President DeSantis) then I pretty much no longer trust anything they say.  

 

In its moment when the leaders of the free world (and this includes Trump who I believe was boxed in and knew this was being used to defeat him) had their moment to actually stand up for freedom and liberty, it cowered and hid - deliberately or out of fear.  Both are disgusting.  

[716er]

33 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

Olivia Dalton.  And every Psaki presser.  The Left is using this accusation (disinformation) ad nauseam since Covid and its by design.   

 

 

 

 

Speaking of Covid.  If I believe our government deliberately lied about Covid for 2 years (everyone but President DeSantis) then I pretty much no longer trust anything they say.  

 

In its moment when the leaders of the free world (and this includes Trump who I believe was boxed in and knew this was being used to defeat him) had their moment to actually stand up for freedom and liberty, it cowered and hid - deliberately or out of fear.  Both are disgusting.  

Do you think Lavrovs claims about biowarfare are credible? I think that was the question.

 

Havent seen a dodge like that since Eddie Robinson whiffed on Pennington.

[Tiberius]

14 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

I'd be very reticent to throw the "war criminal" charge out.

Pandora's box.

It will be unavoidable when he uses chemical weapons 

[sherpa]

9 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

It will be unavoidable when he uses chemical weapons 

 

What I am referring to is the use of conventional weapons as a war crime charge, which has been brought in this thread.

Specifically, the use of cluster bombs.

Those have a valuable effect against a number of things.

Though the mention of them as a war crime if used in populated areas, that definition is hazy, and whoever would decide what was a civilian area would be highly prejudiced.

"War crimes" seems to be the common complaint about a week into any engagement.

[Westside]

1 minute ago, sherpa said:

 

What I am referring to is the use of conventional weapons as a war crime charge, which has been brought in this thread.

Specifically, the use of cluster bombs.

Those have a valuable effect against a number of things.

Though the mention of them as a war crime if used in populated areas, that definition is hazy, and whoever would decide what was a civilian area would be highly prejudiced.

"War crimes" seems to be the common complaint about a week into any engagement.

Yeah, but it makes them sound more “evil” when you call them that. It’s all about the feelz.

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, sherpa said:

 

What I am referring to is the use of conventional weapons as a war crime charge, which has been brought in this thread.

Specifically, the use of cluster bombs.

Those have a valuable effect against a number of things.

Though the mention of them as a war crime if used in populated areas, that definition is hazy, and whoever would decide what was a civilian area would be highly prejudiced.

"War crimes" seems to be the common complaint about a week into any engagement.

Bombarding civilian areas for terror is a war crime, imo. But I get for diplomatic reasons, especially trying to stop this war, why it might be held back. But using chemical weapons, especially with whole world watching, it will be unavoidable to call a duck, a duck. 

Just now, Westside said:

Yeah, but it makes them sound more “evil” when you call them that. It’s all about the feelz.

You don't think Putin is a war criminal? 

[Westside]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Bombarding civilian areas for terror is a war crime, imo. But I get for diplomatic reasons, especially trying to stop this war, why it might be held back. But using chemical weapons, especially with whole world watching, it will be unavoidable to call a duck, a duck. 

You don't think Putin is a war criminal? 

You and Putin are guilty of the same kind of propaganda. He wants to eliminate by any way possible Ukrainians. 
You want to eliminate anyone who disagrees with you. Even fellow democrats. You both share the same ideology. 
Are you a war criminal?

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Bombarding civilian areas for terror is a war crime, imo. But I get for diplomatic reasons, especially trying to stop this war, why it might be held back. But using chemical weapons, especially with whole world watching, it will be unavoidable to call a duck, a duck. 

You don't think Putin is a war criminal? 

Tibs…you and I often disagree but on this I believe you’re correct. The Russian invasion has been horrific in that there doesn’t seem to be a Ukrainian army to attack so instead Russia is just slamming rockets into apartment buildings. I’m not sure that we’ve ever seen anything like that. Typically, the attacking force claims that the enemy is using these buildings as a shield to hide their military. But Ukraine doesn’t appear to have an organized military. To quote Irv….what a mess!

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, Westside said:

You and Putin are guilty of the same kind of propaganda. He wants to eliminate by any way possible Ukrainians. 
You want to eliminate anyone who disagrees with you. Even fellow democrats. You both share the same ideology. 
Are you a war criminal?

LOL!!! 

[John Adams]

4 minutes ago, Westside said:

You and Putin are guilty of the same kind of propaganda. He wants to eliminate by any way possible Ukrainians. 
You want to eliminate anyone who disagrees with you. Even fellow democrats. You both share the same ideology. 
Are you a war criminal?

 

Finally a reasonable voice. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

But Ukraine doesn’t appear to have an organized military. To quote Irv….what a mess!

 

Huh, what makes you think the Ukrainians don't have an "organized military"?

 

 

[sherpa]

20 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Bombarding civilian areas for terror is a war crime, imo.  

You don't think Putin is a war criminal? 

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

You use the terms "civilian areas," and "for terror."

Who gets to make those judgements, because in the last two decades or so, I've seen that "opinion" thrown around in just about every conflict.

 

Regarding Putin, he has already murdered and attempted to murder dissidents.

He is pretty much guilty of everything.

[SoCal Deek]

7 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Huh, what makes you think the Ukrainians don't have an "organized military"?

 

 

Sheesh…I’m sure they have one but we certainly haven’t seen it in action. Have you? 

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

You use the terms "civilian areas," and "for terror."

Who gets to make those judgements, because in the last two decades or so, I've seen that "opinion" thrown around in just about every conflict.

 

Regarding Putin, he has already murdered and attempted to murder dissidents.

He is pretty much guilty of everything.

Well, I'm making the judgement. He is bombarding civilian areas to terrorize the people. He's allowing "cease fires" and then shelling the places. Bombing schools, hospitals and residential areas, especially in a war of imperial conquest, is a war crime. The whole war is really a crime, but the wasting of civilians is another level. 

 

Who will judge him on a larger level? Probably no one. He will hide behind his nukes. 

 

I realize that Nuremberg was ex post facto law, but I don't care. Not many people do. 

 

Chemical warfare against helpless civilians will simply make it impossible for leaders not to label him a war criminal 

[T master]

22 hours ago, BillStime said:

 

If Trump were POTUS - Ukraine would not exist today.

 

 

If he was president Putin wouldn't have invaded because the US would have been producing & selling more oil to our EU allies rather than asking all the other communist countries to sell us their oil plus Trump has balls & knows how to be a stronger leader than what is in there now .

 

This bumbling idiot doesn't have a clue & Putin along with China watched as he totally screwed up the with drawl from Afghanistan not to mention how his people screwed up the submarine deal .

 

Then they will still be watching how he handles our now energy crisis which he has created he doesn't have brains enough to just go back to what was being done before he took office this num nuts thinks electric is the solution & when hep all the regulations back on drilling & fracking he totally screwed th eAmerican people which has been proven by watching gas prices increase ever since he took office .

 

Which intern has weakened the US economy world wide but you will never see or admit these stupid actions of this administration & like them will try to blame it all on Putin because you can't see the forest for the tree's but it was set in motion a little over a year ago Putin is going to help push it even higher with his actions .

[Jauronimo]

2 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

Olivia Dalton.  And every Psaki presser.  The Left is using this accusation (disinformation) ad nauseam since Covid and its by design.   

 

 

 

 

Speaking of Covid.  If I believe our government deliberately lied about Covid for 2 years (everyone but President DeSantis) then I pretty much no longer trust anything they say.  

 

In its moment when the leaders of the free world (and this includes Trump who I believe was boxed in and knew this was being used to defeat him) had their moment to actually stand up for freedom and liberty, it cowered and hid - deliberately or out of fear.  Both are disgusting.  

No one was speaking of Covid. Holy conflation.

1 hour ago, T master said:

 

If he was president Putin wouldn't have invaded because the US would have been producing & selling more oil to our EU allies rather than asking all the other communist countries to sell us their oil plus Trump has balls & knows how to be a stronger leader than what is in there now .

 

This bumbling idiot doesn't have a clue & Putin along with China watched as he totally screwed up the with drawl from Afghanistan not to mention how his people screwed up the submarine deal .

 

Then they will still be watching how he handles our now energy crisis which he has created he doesn't have brains enough to just go back to what was being done before he took office this num nuts thinks electric is the solution & when hep all the regulations back on drilling & fracking he totally screwed th eAmerican people which has been proven by watching gas prices increase ever since he took office .

 

Which intern has weakened the US economy world wide but you will never see or admit these stupid actions of this administration & like them will try to blame it all on Putin because you can't see the forest for the tree's but it was set in motion a little over a year ago Putin is going to help push it even higher with his actions .

Yeah, all those LNG exports to europe would mean the EU wouldnt need russian gas somehow preventing a war to make sure Russia doesnt have the EU and NATO at their doorstep....

[Coffeesforclosers]

6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Sheesh…I’m sure they have one but we certainly haven’t seen it in action. Have you? 

 

Well, what are you looking for as proof?

 

The war was supposed to be over in 96 hours, we're on day 16 and the Russians have lost over a thousand vehicles alone.  They still haven't taken any major cities.  That's pretty strong evidence that "organized" resistance is happening.

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Sheesh…I’m sure they have one but we certainly haven’t seen it in action. Have you? 

Do you think civilian militias are operating drones, flying jets, and launching counter attacks against the Russian convoys?  Yeah, I've seen it.

 

When faced with a force 10x your size you aren't going to roll out your tanks to face the enemy head on unless you have Putin level military acumen.  Ukrainian military is ambushing the Russians at every turn.

[dpberr]

9 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Do you think Lavrovs claims about US biowarfare in Ukraine are credible?

 

Yes, but he's throwing stones from a glass house. Every country in the world is playing with this crap, and that's why you'll never get a straight answer on the origins of Covid.