Honest discussion about racism (non political)

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Why do you choose abrasive language aimed at shutting me up rather than addressing the substance of my posts? 

 

Enough already.... Oh come on... Thanks for the lack of discussion...

 

You've already made up your mind that you are right and I am wrong and are using juvenile behavior to try to shut me down. 

 

Not appreciated.

I’m obviously not shutting you down because here you are. You simply want people to agree with you. Which is fine but I’m as a certifiable non racist I’m not going to. I believe in the genuine good nature of people as a whole and have run into very very few real haters of any color. So I’m not buying this systemic nonsense. That would require more total haters than I’ve come across in my considerable decades of experience. Sorry you don’t like hearing that, but someone has to say it.

[Chef Jim]

3 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

My grandpa fought in WWII and used his zero down VA loan to buy a house for around 15k. He passed away in the 90's, but my grandma kept on trucking. When she passed away about 10 years ago, we sold the house for over 200k. Money in our pockets that my grandparents were able to leave us in the 2010's. 

 

As I've pointed out, the value of home equity that middle and working class white families were able to pass on to future generations that they bought with federally subsidized mortgages is over 1 trillion dollars in total.

 

Black families were systematically denied access to these programs that lasted over 40 years after WWII, and as a result were denied the ability to pass on equity to future generations. 

 

But the discrimination in housing policy and practice doesn't end in the 20th century. They continue to this very day. 

 

 

Dicrimination is found in everything against every race, creed, color, sex and age.  I likely would have a harder time getting many jobs than most black people.   

[Motorin']

20 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m obviously not shutting you down because here you are. You simply want people to agree with you. Which is fine but I’m as a certifiable non racist I’m not going to. I believe in the genuine good nature of people as a whole and have run into very very few real haters of any color. So I’m not buying this systemic nonsense. That would require more total haters than I’ve come across in my considerable decades of experience. Sorry you don’t like hearing that, but someone has to say it.

 

Hate in the individual isn't required for the system work unfairly. 

 

Algorithms can execute discriminatory policies without the capacity to feel, let alone hate. 

 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Dicrimination is found in everything against every race, creed, color, sex and age.  I likely would have a harder time getting many jobs than most black people.   

 

I mean, you can tell yourself that. There's virtually no evidence to back that up. If there is I'd love to read it. 

[Chef Jim]

4 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

I mean, you can tell yourself that. There's virtually no evidence to back that up. If there is I'd love to read it. 

There are plenty of stats out there.  Much of it is anecdotal just as a lot of racism in hiring practices  is.  
 

If you don’t think age discrimination is a big thing can’t help you. 

[Motorin']

Just now, Chef Jim said:

There are plenty of stats out there.  Much of it is anecdotal just as a lot of racism in hiring practices  is.  
 

If you don’t think age discrimination is a big thing can’t help you. 

 

Oh I have no doubt age discrimination is real. I didn't realize you where calling yourself old.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

17 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Hate in the individual isn't required for the system work unfairly. 

 

Algorithms can execute discriminatory policies without the capacity to feel, let alone hate. 

I’m never going to try and stop you from looking for unfairness. You seem bent on looking for it in everything but  I’m going to remain steadfast in my belief in the goodness of people. I see that goodness displayed all around me on a daily basis. I wish you nothing the best in your quest so long as you don’t trample on the millions of innocent people in your pursuit. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

 

It's not necessarily an either or situation. If we are strictly talking about breaking out of poverty, absolutely having a two parent household plays a huge role in most cases. 

 

There is big a difference between breaking out of poverty, and traversing the massive wealth gap created from hundreds of years of unpaid slavery, a hundred years of segregation and discrimination followed by 50 years of attempts to root out the remnants of discrimination. 

 

 

Yeah I think we are aligned, it’s just I’m suggesting it is by far the main cause of inequity. Lingering impact from the horrible things allowed to happen in the past I suggest, are a minimally impactful red herring. 

[SoCal Deek]

I work with a number of really successful black people. They don’t allow any of this negativity narrative to dictate their pursuit of happiness. 

[JaCrispy]

2 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Hate in the individual isn't required for the system work unfairly. 

 

Algorithms can execute discriminatory policies without the capacity to feel, let alone hate. 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, you can tell yourself that. There's virtually no evidence to back that up. If there is I'd love to read it. 

But if we are talking about systems that create inequality as racist, what about within certain ethnic groups, themselves?  Not all black people produce the same outcome...and you can go on down the line with every ethnic group in every culture...

 

Heck, even siblings within a family don’t have the same outcome...so I don’t understand how it’s racist if different races don’t have the same outcome, if you can’t even produce an equal outcome within races, or even families...

 

Furthermore, what if people don’t want the same outcomes? People have all sorts of different preferences, passions, and needs...who is to say I even want the same thing as my white American friend? So how is that racist if I choose something different that contributes to an unequal outcome?

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, JaCrispy said:

But if we are talking about systems that create inequality as racist, what about within certain ethnic groups, themselves?  Not all black people produce the same outcome...and you can go on down the line with every ethnic group in every culture...

 

Heck, even siblings within a family don’t have the same outcome...so I don’t understand how it’s racist if different races don’t have the same outcome, if you can’t even produce an equal outcome within races, or even families...

 

Furthermore, what if people don’t want the same outcomes? People have all sorts of different preferences, passions, and needs...who is to say I even want the same thing as my white American friend? So how is that racist if I choose something different that contributes to an unequal outcome?

 

This is happening all over the country: 

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/21/998536881/a-black-woman-says-she-had-to-hide-her-race-to-get-a-fair-home-appraisal

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

 

This is happening all over the country: 

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/21/998536881/a-black-woman-says-she-had-to-hide-her-race-to-get-a-fair-home-appraisal

Why is it all the “proof” is singular examples? BY DEFINITION that’s not systemic.

 

thix topic continues to be a number of reasonable questioners and nobody who can articulate answers. 
 

gawd people see a race war being spurred by political elite?!!? 

[Motorin']

38 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Why is it all the “proof” is singular examples? BY DEFINITION that’s not systemic.

 

thix topic continues to be a number of reasonable questioners and nobody who can articulate answers. 
 

gawd people see a race war being spurred by political elite?!!? 

 

This is another response that seems committed to ignoring 99% of what has been presented so that you can say you are right, I am wrong. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Motorin'

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

8 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

This is another response that seems committed to ignoring 99% of what has been presented so that you can say you are right, I am wrong. 

Not my objective, just trying to point out the neo race war is ill founded and not bent on solving anything. It’s just politicians  attempting to control the libs minds. We can line up poc that decoded this narrative for days to educate you. 

[Motorin']

Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Not my objective, just trying to point out the neo race war is ill founded and not bent on solving anything. It’s just politicians  attempting to control the libs minds. We can line up poc that decoded this narrative for days to educate you. 

 

No thanks. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

 

This is another response that seems committed to ignoring 99% of what has been presented so that you can say you are right, I am wrong. 

News flash: you are wrong. You don’t want to hear it,  but you are.

[WideNine]

History has a tendency to repeat itself - unfortunately.

 

The Rochester Riots - by McKelvey (City historian 50's-60's)

 

This is an interesting bit of WNY history. It is interesting to note the challenges that arose with the influx of black residents and how the city of Rochester tried to meet those challenges and how those efforts often fell short - you get the distinct feeling "we have been here before".

 

This one section below from the author in particular should grab our attention as historical deja vu:

 

"A series of loosely related incidents shattered the community's apathy. The trouble started in August 1962 when Rufus Fairwell, a 28-year old *****, suffered two fractured vertebrae in a struggle with two police men who attempted to arrest him as he closed the service station at which he was employed.

 

Alleging that Fairwell had refused to identify himself and then had resisted arrest, the officers had taken him forcibly to headquarters, where as Fairwell claimed he was further beaten and mal treated.

 

Popular indignation mounted when the grand jury cleared both Fairwell and the two policemen of assault charges." 

 

 

I had written about a 7 page manifesto that dove into human nature, tribalism, the importance of finishing education to close achievement and wealth gaps, the positive impact that male role models play in children finishing school, police reform... 

 

Even I thought it was a bit too much reading and reference material to inflict on you folks - and coming from me that is saying something.

 

 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

7 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Why is it all the “proof” is singular examples? BY DEFINITION that’s not systemic.

 

thix topic continues to be a number of reasonable questioners and nobody who can articulate answers. 
 

gawd people see a race war being spurred by political elite?!!? 

What I object to is the term systemic.  It appears to be a subjective and anecdotal conclusion that lacks any quantification or numerical identification.  Like "systemic racism".  Does that mean at least 51% of people are racist?  And what are the traits and actions of these people that are considered racist?  Can somebody outline them?  Are they actions, thoughts, words, something else?

The term "systemic" implies some widespread problem of some observable condition that exists above some threshold value vs. the total population.  When I press people for examples of systemic racism all I ever seem to get are historical references.  But nothing from present day that is quantifiable and validates the belief. 

 

And while there are certainly individual acts and instances of race motivated bad behavior the idea its systemic or epidemic seems absurd in today's society as the numbers just don't add up.  It all comes down to if you can't quantify it how can you know or say its systemic?  

Edited June 28, 2021 by All_Pro_Bills

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

What I object to is the term systemic.  It appears to be a subjective and anecdotal conclusion that lacks any quantification or numerical identification.  Like "systemic racism".  Does that mean at least 51% of people are racist?  And what are the traits and actions of these people that are considered racist?  Can somebody outline them?  Are they actions, thoughts, words, something else?

The term "systemic" implies some widespread problem of some observable condition that exists above some threshold value vs. the total population.  When I press people for examples of systemic racism all I ever seem to get are historical references.  But nothing from present day that is quantifiable and validates the belief. 

 

And while there are certainly individual acts and instances of race motivated bad behavior the idea its systemic or epidemic seems absurd in today's society as the numbers just don't add up.  It all comes down to if you can't quantify it how can you know or say its systemic?  

That’s to me the real frustration of this whole systemic boogie man. It’s blaming everyone and no one at the same time and as a result frames a problem without a solution. 
 

The naive that mean well miss that this narrative is a divisive political instrument.
 

The power mongers are happy to ignite a race war if polarization rallies up the votes they need. 

8 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

No thanks. 

exactly- please try immersing yourself in diversity and stop letting politicians tell you how your world works. See it with your own eyes. Ask and learn. Stop believing cheap flimsy narratives.  Free you mind, and the rest will follow. 

[Tiberius]

16 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

Dicrimination is found in everything against every race, creed, color, sex and age.  I likely would have a harder time getting many jobs than most black people.   

You would? Why is that? Are you oppressed? 

2 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

What I object to is the term systemic.  It appears to be a subjective and anecdotal conclusion that lacks any quantification or numerical identification.  Like "systemic racism".  Does that mean at least 51% of people are racist?  And what are the traits and actions of these people that are considered racist?  Can somebody outline them?  Are they actions, thoughts, words, something else?

The term "systemic" implies some widespread problem of some observable condition that exists above some threshold value vs. the total population.  When I press people for examples of systemic racism all I ever seem to get are historical references.  But nothing from present day that is quantifiable and validates the belief. 

 

And while there are certainly individual acts and instances of race motivated bad behavior the idea its systemic or epidemic seems absurd in today's society as the numbers just don't add up.  It all comes down to if you can't quantify it how can you know or say its systemic?  

You have to admit that slavery and Jim Crow were systems, right? And those systems relied or were supported by racism, right? 

[Westside]

24 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

You would? Why is that? Are you oppressed? 

You have to admit that slavery and Jim Crow were systems, right? And those systems relied or were supported by racism, right? 

You have to admit that you are a product of white privilege. You’ve had opportunities handed to you based solely on the color of your skin. 
You have benefited greatly from your racist upbringing, yet you refuse to admit it. Are you suffering from white guilt?