A government of the rich, by the rich, for the rich...

[WideNine]

Now don't get me wrong as I am pro-business and I like to feel that any American has a fair shake to succeed in this country, but many of our institutions have become almost too polluted by sub-systems setup to allow only a very few to gain unfair advantages over the vast majority of us.

 

Sure, I like to keep as much of my money as I can and when donating I decide where I think it will do the most good, but I pay more than my fair share of taxes.

 

How the richest Americans dodge paying taxes on their assets

 

A brief snip from this article that gets at the crux of the tax evasion practice. First understand that although I could hold billions of dollars worth of assets, until I cash out those assets they are not considered income even if those assets are growing exponentially. So if a multi-billionaire is restricted from cashing out how does he get access to all that money so he can purchase his (Bezos) 150 million dollar jet and 5.5 million dollar private hanger to house it, or his 417 foot superyacht?

 

"So how do megabillionaires pay their megabills while opting for $1 salaries and hanging onto their stock? According to public documents and experts, the answer for some is borrowing money — lots of it. For regular people, borrowing money is often something done out of necessity, say for a car or a home. But for the ultrawealthy, it can be a way to access billions without producing income, and thus, income tax."

 

...so you can secure billions in loan money using your assets as collateral, the bank is happy with their interest rate return, the billionaires are happy that they are only paying single digit interest on the money they are using for their lavish life styles, and the kicker is that the interest paid is also tax deductible. Why wouldn't it be😂

 

It seems bassackwards to me that folks that follow their conscience are subjected to the full brunt of our legal system, yet those whose empires grew driving on our roads, flying on our subsidized airlines, protected by our military and police, leveraging the intellectual commodities of the US workforce can scam and short-change the US tax system and are free to keep scamming.

 

But the Grand Ol' Party will put a stop to that scamming nonsense, or will they?

They are angry and are loading up on their pitch forks and torches, but not for the rich scamming the system.... get those whistle-blowers

 

 

OF COURSE..... we need to punish those whistle-blowers that dare shed light on how f'd up the system is, this is after-all the country where  white-collar criminals get pardoned yet the honest plebs who try to shed light on corruption are ignored when trying to follow formal whistle-blower protocols and are then sent to jail when they go to the press. Our nation's justice system is so often exposed as the theatre of the absurd.

 

I took an oath to protect American people and I could not stand by aimlessly when I saw corruption

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by WideNine

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Quote

..the Grand Ol' Party..

I agree with a lot of this, but if you think

this is a republicans only problem you are extremely naive. 
 

Bezos, Gates Soros and Buffet are staunch democrats and donated millions to various campaigns... ever wonder why these billionaires buy politicians, especially the ones that buy the party that claims they want to tax the ultra wealthy? Do you think these ueber rich they wish they could pay more taxes but can’t figure out how?? 
 

Wake up - the aristocracy ruling class of the wealthy and political elite is incestuous, corrupt and self serving. This is the only bipartisan game in town. 

[Orlando Tim]

It takes a special kind of stupid- naivety- to be aware of the taxation problem and think the Dems are the lesser problem. If you learned anything from the whistleblowers you have not paid attention for at least 40 years. The whistleblowers need to go to jail for breaking the law, the people are doing nothing illegal, they simply are using the system that our elected officials created. I hate our tax system but every time someone comes up with a better plan progressives lie about it.

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I agree with a lot of this, but if you think

this is a republicans only problem you are extremely naive. 
 

Bezos, Gates Soros and Buffet are staunch democrats and donated millions to various campaigns... ever wonder why these billionaires buy politicians, especially the ones that buy the party that claims they want to tax the ultra wealthy? Do you think these ueber rich they wish they could pay more taxes but can’t figure out how?? 
 

Wake up - the aristocracy ruling class of the wealthy and political elite is incestuous, corrupt and self serving. This is the only bipartisan game in town. 

 

No I don't think this is a GOP-only issue, but it is a fact that they do have the closest ties to the biggest corporate lobbying group in America.

 

The US Chamber of Commerce. 

 

The US Chamber of Commerce does the bulk of the lobbying for corporations to continue to erode taxation policies aimed at them and their CEO's.

 

Nor do I believe in Socialism -

that simply tossing money from here to there will solve societies many issues.

 

Never believed that taking money from the competent and handing it to the incompetent is a cure-all.

 

I do however believe that if the uber wealthy were forced to pay an equivalent percentage out of their billions like the rest of us pay, then maybe more roads and bridges get fixed, maybe there can be 2 classes with 12 kids each at your public school instead of one class with over 30....

 

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

No I don't think this is a GOP-only issue, but it is a fact that they do have the closest ties to the biggest corporate lobbying group in America.

 

The US Chamber of Commerce. 

 

The US Chamber of Commerce does the bulk of the lobbying for corporations to continue to erode taxation policies aimed at them and their CEO's.

 

Nor do I believe in Socialism -

that simply tossing money from here to there will solve societies many issues.

 

Never believed that taking money from the competent and handing it to the incompetent is a cure-all.

 

I do however believe that if the uber wealthy were forced to pay an equivalent percentage out of their billions like the rest of us pay, then maybe more roads and bridges get fixed, maybe there can be 2 classes with 12 kids each at your public school instead of one class with over 30....

 

 

 

How about the super wealthy just pay more of the trillions of dollars to the government than than the rest of us do, we pay less and the fed doesn’t get more? 
 

I hardly see how the federal government needs even more money to waste.  My state and local taxes cover most of my roads and my property tax pays for our schools. 
 

why people want to give even more money to the people wasting what they are already stealing from you while allowing their rich cronies to avoid paying is beyond me. 
 

lastly, what does the US CoC have to do with individual tax filling loopholes? 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[unbillievable]

The capital protestors broke 5 windows during their "riot", and it cost 1 million dollars to replace.

They spent 1 billion dollars on an Obamacare website that got completely scrapped.

Trump spent 10 Billion on a wall for a border that is not being enforced.

Obama threw 2 trillion towards infrastructure in his porkulus bill, that we are still trying to "fix" today.

Biden is also threatening to raise the budget to 7 trillion to pay for some of the stupidest programs known to humanity.

 

This government doesn't need more money to waste.

4 hours ago, WideNine said:

Never believed that taking money from the competent and handing it to the incompetent is a cure-all.

 

I do however believe that if the uber wealthy were forced to pay an equivalent percentage out of their billions like the rest of us pay, then maybe more roads and bridges get fixed, maybe there can be 2 classes with 12 kids each at your public school instead of one class with over 30....

They already pay a larger percentage of their income than most Americans; since almost half of the country pay 0%

 

What you really want is a cut of their WEALTH.

Edited June 11, 2021 by unbillievable

[oldmanfan]

The debate in this country needs to be about the role of the federal government.  Decide on that, then you know how much money you need to run it, then you set a tax rate that pays for it.

 

I am very fiscally conservative.  Get rid of half the cabinet departments to start, then focus the federal government on things only the federal government can do (infrastruture, defense, etc.).  Get rid of all loopholes in the tax structure, have a set corporation tax, and a flat tax for personal income.  

[SectionC3]

2 hours ago, unbillievable said:

The capital protestors broke 5 windows during their "riot", and it cost 1 million dollars to replace.

They spent 1 billion dollars on an Obamacare website that got completely scrapped.

Trump spent 10 Billion on a wall for a border that is not being enforced.

Obama threw 2 trillion towards infrastructure in his porkulus bill, that we are still trying to "fix" today.

Biden is also threatening to raise the budget to 7 trillion to pay for some of the stupidest programs known to humanity.

 

This government doesn't need more money to waste.

They already pay a larger percentage of their income than most Americans; since almost half of the country pay 0%

 

What you really want is a cut of their WEALTH.

 

You misspelled insurrectionists.  I think you meant to say the insurrectionists broke 5 windows, overtook the United States Capitol, catalyzed death, and repeatedly broke the law during their insurrection. 

[SoCal Deek]

58 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

The debate in this country needs to be about the role of the federal government.  Decide on that, then you know how much money you need to run it, then you set a tax rate that pays for it.

 

I am very fiscally conservative.  Get rid of half the cabinet departments to start, then focus the federal government on things only the federal government can do (infrastruture, defense, etc.).  Get rid of all loopholes in the tax structure, have a set corporation tax, and a flat tax for personal income.  

As usual...we agree! Well said, but apparently impossible to achieve. The OP makes many good points but his complaint shouldn’t be against the wealthy. It should be against Congress. Wealthy people are no different from anyone else. They too see no reason to give any more than the absolute minimum allowed by law to this wasteful bloated government. And why should they? No matter how much they toss on the pile, Congress spends even more than they toss.  I don’t blame the wealthy one bit. 

 

[SectionC3]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

The debate in this country needs to be about the role of the federal government.  Decide on that, then you know how much money you need to run it, then you set a tax rate that pays for it.

 

I am very fiscally conservative.  Get rid of half the cabinet departments to start, then focus the federal government on things only the federal government can do (infrastruture, defense, etc.).  Get rid of all loopholes in the tax structure, have a set corporation tax, and a flat tax for personal income.  

 

So you’re absurdly rich then, too?  Too much time hanging out with Steve Forbes if you believe in the flat tax theory.  Who does that benefit the most?  Rich folks.  Really, really, really rich folks.  To the detriment of most to the people who will read this message. 

[WideNine]

7 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

How about the super wealthy just pay more of the trillions of dollars to the government than than the rest of us do, we pay less and the fed doesn’t get more? 
 

I hardly see how the federal government needs even more money to waste.  My state and local taxes cover most of my roads and my property tax pays for our schools. 
 

why people want to give even more money to the people wasting what they are already stealing from you while allowing their rich cronies to avoid paying is beyond me. 
 

lastly, what does the US CoC have to do with individual tax filling loopholes? 

 

 

I can get behind more fiscally responsible gov spending and more of a shift to state funding with the uber wealthy paying more and my tax rate getting some relief.

 

Who wouldn't?

 

In case you were unaware the US Chamber of Commerce is not an arm of the US government.

 

It is a lobbying group that pushes agendas that result in corporations having broad influence in elections (recent blocking of campaign dark money transparency bill) and by proxy tax policies that favor corporations (and their CEOs) over equitable taxation.

 

That is why I mention them. It is related to why many politicians (all the rank and file GOP and probably good chunk of Dems) are not motivated to correct & enact equitable tax policy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

As usual...we agree! Well said, but apparently impossible to achieve. The OP makes many good points but his complaint shouldn’t be against the wealthy. It should be against Congress. Wealthy people are no different from anyone else. They too see no reason to give any more than the absolute minimum allowed by law to this wasteful bloated government. And why should they? No matter how much they toss on the pile, Congress spends even more than they toss.  I don’t blame the wealthy one bit. 

 

 

Truth.

 

You won't see me arguing that our government is fiscally sound with our money.

 

My other point was that these guys get to scam the government to the tune of billions of dollars while I have the IRS climbing up my ass making me prove that in 2016 my family used our HSA card just for prescription medicine.

 

The inequitable treatment chaps my ass too.

 

 

 

 

[WideNine]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

The debate in this country needs to be about the role of the federal government.  Decide on that, then you know how much money you need to run it, then you set a tax rate that pays for it.

 

I am very fiscally conservative.  Get rid of half the cabinet departments to start, then focus the federal government on things only the federal government can do (infrastruture, defense, etc.).  Get rid of all loopholes in the tax structure, have a set corporation tax, and a flat tax for personal income.  

 

Actually makes good sense to simplify the tax code, although that seemed to sail over a few heads in this thread.

 

Not sure if the flat tax is the answer, would have to research a bit more, but most folks know the axiom, "The more you overthink the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain".

 

The same holds true with tax policy, the more complex you make it the easier it is to find and exploit loopholes.

 

 

 

 

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, WideNine said:

 

Actually makes good sense to simplify the tax code, although that seemed to sail over a few heads in this thread.

 

Not sure if the flat tax is the answer, would have to research a bit more, but most folks know the axiom, "The more you overthink the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain".

 

The same holds true with tax policy, the more complex you make it the easier it is to find and exploit loopholes.

 

 

 

 

I’ll give you the thumbnail sketch on the flat tax.  Somebody who makes $50k/year in taxable income pays, say, 17% in tax on dollars 1 through 60,000.  Right now, it’s a graduated scale (kicks in at about 10% on dollars about 10,000 through around 40,000, then rises to 12% on dollars 40,001 and 60,000.  Or thereabouts.  I don’t have the tax code in front of me.).    

 

I use the 17% figure because I believe that’s what Steve Forbes proposed years and years ago.  Now, let’s examine what the person who makes $1m year would pay.  Under the current structure, their tax hit would be the same as yours on dollars 1 through 60,000.  Then, however, as income rises, the tax rate goes up, so they might pay 24% on dollars, say, 80,000 through 120,000 and then even more on dollars 120,000 and beyond.  Under the flat tax, they’d pay a straight 17% on everything.  

 

So who gets the tax cut in a flat tax world?  The rich guy, on the monies beyond your income.  And, your tax hit likely goes up to pay for it.  But if you think simplification is the preferable route, hey, that’s cool.  Feel free to give tax breaks to the rich and to jack up taxes on the working class and poor. 

[WideNine]

5 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

I’ll give you the thumbnail sketch on the flat tax.  Somebody who makes $50k/year in taxable income pays, say, 17% in tax on dollars 1 through 60,000.  Right now, it’s a graduated scale (kicks in at about 10% on dollars about 10,000 through around 40,000, then rises to 12% on dollars 40,001 and 60,000.  Or thereabouts.  I don’t have the tax code in front of me.).    

 

I use the 17% figure because I believe that’s what Steve Forbes proposed years and years ago.  Now, let’s examine what the person who makes $1m year would pay.  Under the current structure, their tax hit would be the same as yours on dollars 1 through 60,000.  Then, however, as income rises, the tax rate goes up, so they might pay 24% on dollars, say, 80,000 through 120,000 and then even more on dollars 120,000 and beyond.  Under the flat tax, they’d pay a straight 17% on everything.  

 

So who gets the tax cut in a flat tax world?  The rich guy, on the monies beyond your income.  And, your tax hit likely goes up to pay for it.  But if you think simplification is the preferable route, hey, that’s cool.  Feel free to give tax breaks to the rich and to jack up taxes on the working class and poor. 

 

That is if you believe the uber wealthy actually pay on a graduated percentage scale.

 

They don't.

 

If you read the original article from buzzfeed most currently pay 1% or lower against their wealth.

 

I do believe that we would have to fix the tax loopholes that allow the uber wealthy to access their billions (sans having it tagged as a source of income) first before figuring out what should be an equitable tax percentage against said income level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SectionC3]

50 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

That is if you believe the uber wealthy actually pay on a graduated percentage scale.

 

They don't.

 

If you read the original article from buzzfeed most currently pay 1% or lower against their wealth.

 

I do believe that we would have to fix the tax loopholes that allow the uber wealthy to access their billions (sans having it tagged as a source of income) first before figuring out what should be an equitable tax percentage against said income level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Loopholes and flat taxes are entirely different things. 

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, WideNine said:

 

That is if you believe the uber wealthy actually pay on a graduated percentage scale.

 

They don't.

 

If you read the original article from buzzfeed most currently pay 1% or lower against their wealth.

 

I do believe that we would have to fix the tax loopholes that allow the uber wealthy to access their billions (sans having it tagged as a source of income) first before figuring out what should be an equitable tax percentage against said income level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep, the current graduation is meant to form an additional barrier between upwardly mobile middle and wealthy elite who don’t pay taxes. And both parties support this structure…