A Lot of Bills stars Were at OTA's But 1 Star Was Not .

[TBBills]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Since when?

A few days ago, Bills tweeted him in his uniform.

[Doc]

Sanders was there today.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think Lotulelei mattered in Carolina but I thought his play kinda fell off in B'lo, for whatever reason.

 

 

Since when?

 

 

His play dropped off in 2017 in Carolina.    That looked like bad timing with him hitting UFA.    The perception was that he was looking at a $3M-$4M per year aav kinda' short term deal.    Which made the $50M 5 year contract he got even more astonishing and harkens to @GunnerBill point about Beane having a blind spot for certain declining vets in UFA.    His meager gross numbers are worse in Buffalo but he's also played A LOT less snaps per game.

[Putin]

6 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

My hope for Sanders is that Josh's arm rejuvenates him for this year.

His career started with Big Ben and Manning in the first 6 years and then for the past 5 he has had to catch balls from

Lynch, Siemian, Osweiler, Keenum, Flacco, Garoppolo, Hill and a declining Brees.  That's a pretty bad list.

 

I'm hoping he is pumped up to catch passes from Allen and win another ring this year.

Amen 🙏🏻 to that brother !!!!

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Didn't Tyson dismantle the guy he faced in the fight that was set up? How is this a good example?

 

No he ended up fighting and getting the decision against another 50 something in an exhibition after people theorized that he might be a heavyweight title contender based on that short video.

 

 

But if Star doesn't work out..........get this guy on the phone Beane.........look at the feet on that 1 tech........the camera don't lie amirite?   He might not make plays either but it's been said that all he does is win.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think Lotulelei mattered in Carolina but I thought his play kinda fell off in B'lo, for whatever reason.

 

 

 

Perhaps a bit. If you think it was really significant, I just disagree. It sure didn't look to me like a coincidence that we were quite a bit worse last year against the run, as YPA clearly shows.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

13 hours ago, TBBills said:

He is here.

 

Good.

[Thurman#1]

19 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

I rewatched the condensed Cowboys game on Game Pass.  30 minutes to see a nice win wasn’t exactly a chore. Star had two really nice plays that game, including his best as a Bill - the INT of Dak on a screen.  He also knocked down a pass at the line.  I can see why those plays would lead you to chose that game.

 

But the problem is that the rest of it looked like everything else I’ve seen.  He played 35 defensive snaps (46%) and 3 on specials.  He was double teamed on run plays only once where he was moved out of his gap and the RB went through it easily.  He drew no other doubles on runs, was easily handled by one blocker and made no impact outside of the two plays mentioned.

 

There were several pass plays where a second blocker engaged him, but he never pushed the pocket.  It just looked like the extra OL was just picking him up because he had no one else to block.  Star had a great and a really good play in that game, but it’s really a reach to say those are indicative of his contribution to the Bills.  In two seasons that was his lone INT and he has one other pass defended to go along with two sacks.  But again, those are not what he’s supposed to be here for.  His job is supposed to be drawing double teams and clogging up the middle.  He has failed at that main aspect so far.  It looks like he’s got one season left to show he can change that. 

 

 

Can no longer say which games they were, and it's fair enough to say he's had different games and teams have defended him and the Bills differently.

 

But in 2019 I read all these people arguing that he wasn't getting doubled much and that he was getting pushed back a lot, and I went and watched four of the most recent games at that time on the All-22. Took me a long time to go through slowly, repeatedly and very carefully. And on run plays anywhere through the middle he was doubled way more than half the time. He absolutely did have a few bad plays. But overall was pushed back rarely and did the job of clogging up the middle very well indeed.

 

He really has not failed at it. I suppose you could say, "Hey, you only watched four games," and that's true enough. But it's really basically only a group of Bills fans saying this stuff about Star not getting it done. Around the league there's really no significant Star sucks group outside Buffalo. They're saying it hurt us that he was gone and if he hasn't regressed it will help a lot that he returns. And for good reason. No, he's not elite, or even close. But yeah, he really is a good space eater, and that's what McDermott needs out of a two-down 1-tech.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

You literally jumped into this thread to argue against the correlation between obesity and illness.    

 

An association that is understood to be common sense.

 

You couldn't comprehend the broad scope of arguing that NFL players were exempt from obesity related health concerns.........for example something like 3% of the NFL being of samoan descent........mostly big lineman.....40x the general population % in the US.........and that samoans have some of the highest rates of heart disease and diabetes in the world.

 

I'm just throwing some dirt on your dead argument.    You've earned it.

 

 

Folks, so you see that he's again utterly mis-stating Royale's point. Royale was not arguing against correlation between obesity and illness. He's arguing correctly that you are taking data from a society-wide sample and wrongly arguing that it proves something about an extremely small, specific and rare group of people.

 

Badol's keeps putting forward this completely unsupported idea that he can show correlation not between obesity and illness as Badol keeps saying, but specifically between active NFL linemen being overweight and illness. There is no evidence of that.

 

It's amazing how you manage it, Badol, but you do ... you consistently misunderstand what he says and then follow that up by unsuccessfully attempting to argue something that's not closely connected to what he argued, and then claiming victory when you've not addressed his argument. 

 

The figures brought up by RichRiderBills still don't disprove his point. They do prove that more DLs who were active long ago have died from heart problems than expected. But the study doesn't address what they did after their careers, which is one of several unaddressed key variables. Even back then some guys after they finished their careers cut down their calories, got their appetites, their physiques and their health under control ... and some didn't. 

 

Nobody argues - least of all myself or Royale - that a guy like Fridge Perry, who is now beyond morbidly obese and was in a wheelchair last I saw, is not going to be likely to have health and heart problems because he used to exercise a lot when he played football. Everyone understands that the poor guy has a bad quality of life and is unhealthy and that that will very likely have serious consequences in terms of his cardiovascular health.

 

But there have also been plenty of guys like Alan Page who appears happy, healthy and slender after working hard for 20 years to pack on enough functional weight to (sensationally) play DL in the NFL.

 

Of course, living the rest of your life after football as an obese, inactive person is likely to have bad consequences. Nobody argues this, and yet Badol keeps pretending we are. The question is whether guys like Page, like Matt Birk, like Eric Wood, like Marshal Yanda, like Joe Thomas, like David Carter, like Brad Culpepper, like Golic, like Roger Brown, whether the group of guys like that who spend a decade or more eating voraciously in order to approach their ideal playing weights as very large tough linemen but then change to a healthier lifestyle, can be healthy. 

 

Badol argues that being an active NFL lineman will lead to large percentages of them  being unhealthy because of what they did as active players. And he simply can't prove or even strongly indicate that.

 

There simply is no proof that that guys who lead the NFL lifestyle can't be wildly healthy as long as they don't live the next 30 years of their life doing little or no exercise and eating too much. It's impossible to say whether playing DL in the NFL makes you unhealthy or whether the type of guy who becomes good enough at playing DL in the NFL is likely to have enough other risk factors - unhealthy habits after playing days end - that more of them end up having health problems than average.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

 

16 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He can, but to me Diggs is your most talented receiver so you want the flexibility to use him in every possible way. I don't want Stefon Diggs running deep routes to open things up for lesser players to get the ball underneath. It is the Sammy Watkins decoy argument all over again. If Diggs is going deep a lot they need to be throwing deep to him a lot and that isn't really the staple of the offense. I really want a #2 or #3 guy who can go deep, be a legit threat deep on occasion but run routes sometimes as a decoy to release Stef. We didn't have that much last year because Brown was injured so we are not "losing" anything as such, but I thought that was the chance to add to the weaponry much more so than Emmanuel Sanders playing a kind of "Stefon Diggs visited by the ghost of Christmas future" on the other side of the field. 

 

I saw lots of the Saints last year. He is in decline. Not fall off a cliff bad. He could still come here and put up 650-700 yards and have 4 or 5 touchdowns, but his style means those are going to be touches that Diggs or Beasley got last year. It isn't a different dimension that I think a healthy John Brown last year would have brought or a player in that mould would bring. 

 

 

 

I wanted a guy on the other side who was a real deep threat. Not just a deep threat, but a guy who made teams worry about him going deep.

 

I am a bit depressed that you see decline in Sanders. I really haven't watched much of him. Hope it was an injury or something.

 

Teams aren't as likely to play as much two-deep against us this year as they did last, I'd guess. We might see more variations of coverage.

 

It'll be interesting to see how the Bills counter if teams start shortening the field in this way. Perhaps they'll start giving Marquez Stevenson some snaps as a gadget guy/deep threat.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Thurman#1

[BarleyNY]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Can no longer say which games they were, and it's fair enough to say he's had different games and teams have defended him and the Bills differently.

 

But in 2019 I read all these people arguing that he wasn't getting doubled much and that he was getting pushed back a lot, and I went and watched four of the most recent games at that time on the All-22. Took me a long time to go through slowly, repeatedly and very carefully. And on run plays anywhere through the middle he was doubled way more than half the time. He absolutely did have a few bad plays. But overall was pushed back rarely and did the job of clogging up the middle very well indeed.

 

He really has not failed at it. I suppose you could say, "Hey, you only watched four games," and that's true enough. But it's really basically only a group of Bills fans saying this stuff about Star not getting it done. Around the league there's really no significant Star sucks group outside Buffalo. They're saying it hurt us that he was gone and if he hasn't regressed it will help a lot that he returns. And for good reason. No, he's not elite, or even close. But yeah, he really is a good space eater, and that's what McDermott needs out of a two-down 1-tech.

I guess I will believe it when I see it.  I can’t imagine how he’d look so different game to game, but we have a bunch of new ones to watch this year.  In the meantime feel free to point out games he did well in and I’ll give them a look.  

[Royale with Cheese]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Folks, so you see that he's again utterly mis-stating Royale's point. Royale was not arguing against correlation between obesity and illness. He's arguing correctly that you are taking data from a society-wide sample and wrongly arguing that it proves something about an extremely small, specific and rare group of people.

 

Badol's keeps putting forward this completely unsupported idea that he can show correlation not between obesity and illness as Badol keeps saying, but specifically between active NFL linemen being overweight and illness. There is no evidence of that.

 

It's amazing how you manage it, Badol, but you do ... you consistently misunderstand what he says and then follow that up by unsuccessfully attempting to argue something that's not closely connected to what he argued, and then claiming victory when you've not addressed his argument. 

 

The figures brought up by RichRiderBills still don't disprove his point. They do prove that more DLs who were active long ago have died from heart problems than expected. But the study doesn't address what they did after their careers, which is one of several unaddressed key variables. Even back then some guys after they finished their careers cut down their calories, got their appetites, their physiques and their health under control ... and some didn't. 

 

Nobody argues - least of all myself or Royale - that a guy like Fridge Perry, who is now beyond morbidly obese and was in a wheelchair last I saw, is not going to be likely to have health and heart problems because he used to exercise a lot when he played football. Everyone understands that the poor guy has a bad quality of life and is unhealthy and that that will very likely have serious consequences in terms of his cardiovascular health.

 

But there have also been plenty of guys like Alan Page who appears happy, healthy and slender after working hard for 20 years to pack on enough functional weight to (sensationally) play DL in the NFL.

 

Of course, living the rest of your life after football as an obese, inactive person is likely to have bad consequences. Nobody argues this, and yet Badol keeps pretending we are. The question is whether guys like Page, like Matt Birk, like Eric Wood, like Marshal Yanda, like Joe Thomas, like David Carter, like Brad Culpepper, like Golic, like Roger Brown, whether the group of guys like that who spend a decade or more eating voraciously in order to approach their ideal playing weights as very large tough linemen but then change to a healthier lifestyle, can be healthy. 

 

Badol argues that being an active NFL lineman will lead to large percentages of them  being unhealthy because of what they did as active players. And he simply can't prove or even strongly indicate that.

 

There simply is no proof that that guys who lead the NFL lifestyle can't be wildly healthy as long as they don't live the next 30 years of their life doing little or no exercise and eating too much. It's impossible to say whether playing DL in the NFL makes you unhealthy or whether the type of guy who becomes good enough at playing DL in the NFL is likely to have enough other risk factors - unhealthy habits after playing days end - that more of them end up having health problems than average.

 

 

 

 

 

It's why I stopped responding to him.  He's being disingenuous at this point because it's not difficult to understand what I'm saying. 

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Folks, so you see that he's again utterly mis-stating Royale's point. Royale was not arguing against correlation between obesity and illness. He's arguing correctly that you are taking data from a society-wide sample and wrongly arguing that it proves something about an extremely small, specific and rare group of people.

 

Badol's keeps putting forward this completely unsupported idea that he can show correlation not between obesity and illness as Badol keeps saying, but specifically between active NFL linemen being overweight and illness. There is no evidence of that.

 

 

 

Entirely incorrect.......and intentionally misleading.

 

I simply stated the medically accepted correlation between obesity and illness..........and that 300# NFL lineman are going to be clinically obese by definition.

 

Both common sense.

 

@Royale with Cheese  then demanded proof that all NFL 300# lineman had underlying medical conditions.

 

That's just internet douchebaggery...........a straw man..........I never claimed that.

 

But also,  it's not MY job to prove that obese NFL players are exempt from that which is medically accepted as true.   

 

Royale thought he could just point out that NFL players have to train to play the game to prove they aren't at risk for health problems due to their obesity........but as he stumbled and bumbled his way to finding out.......the question of whether it's fair to compare the general population to obese NFL players is too complex to argue against effectively. 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

On 6/2/2021 at 9:00 AM, BarleyNY said:

I rewatched the condensed Cowboys game on Game Pass.  30 minutes to see a nice win wasn’t exactly a chore. Star had two really nice plays that game, including his best as a Bill - the INT of Dak on a screen.  He also knocked down a pass at the line.  I can see why those plays would lead you to chose that game.

 

But the problem is that the rest of it looked like everything else I’ve seen.  He played 35 defensive snaps (46%) and 3 on specials.  He was double teamed on run plays only once where he was moved out of his gap and the RB went through it easily.  He drew no other doubles on runs, was easily handled by one blocker and made no impact outside of the two plays mentioned.

 

There were several pass plays where a second blocker engaged him, but he never pushed the pocket.  It just looked like the extra OL was just picking him up because he had no one else to block.  Star had a great and a really good play in that game, but it’s really a reach to say those are indicative of his contribution to the Bills.  In two seasons that was his lone INT and he has one other pass defended to go along with two sacks.  But again, those are not what he’s supposed to be here for.  His job is supposed to be drawing double teams and clogging up the middle.  He has failed at that main aspect so far.  It looks like he’s got one season left to show he can change that. 

 

 

I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to accept the FACT that he hasn't been consistently "drawing double teams and clogging up the middle".

 

I know some people don't want to pay for gamepass and don't record the games..........but c'mon.........there are plenty of people here arguing that he is a force in the middle who have plenty of access to the recordings.    They just don't seem to want to know.

 

They'd rather scream at PFF for giving him very poor grades for his individual work.

[Patrick Duffy]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

No he ended up fighting and getting the decision against another 50 something in an exhibition after people theorized that he might be a heavyweight title contender based on that short video.

 

 

But if Star doesn't work out..........get this guy on the phone Beane.........look at the feet on that 1 tech........the camera don't lie amirite?   He might not make plays either but it's been said that all he does is win.

 

 

Now that guy I'd say is at higher risk of heart/health problems. Doubt he would work out...🤪

[Patrick Duffy]

35 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to accept the FACT that he hasn't been consistently "drawing double teams and clogging up the middle".

 

I know some people don't want to pay for gamepass and don't record the games..........but c'mon.........there are plenty of people here arguing that he is a force in the middle who have plenty of access to the recordings.    They just don't seem to want to know.

 

They'd rather scream at PFF for giving him very poor grades for his individual work.

Well I'm with you on this...Not saying he doesn't ever draw double teams but it's definitely not as much as some make it out to be. I don't dislike Star or anything like that, to me only thing is the amount of $$ he is getting. I just think he's not worth that much.

 

But anyways.....hopefully he will surprise coming off missing a season. Will see soon enough.

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to accept the FACT that he hasn't been consistently "drawing double teams and clogging up the middle".

 

I know some people don't want to pay for gamepass and don't record the games..........but c'mon.........there are plenty of people here arguing that he is a force in the middle who have plenty of access to the recordings.    They just don't seem to want to know.

 

They'd rather scream at PFF for giving him very poor grades for his individual work.

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=875

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=917

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=970

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1002

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1047

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1831

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1928

 

Timestamped times Lotulelei was blocked by more than one offensive lineman vs Cowboys on Thanksgiving. This is with over 12 minutes left in the second quarter.

[flaz]

34 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=875

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=917

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=970

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1002

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1047

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1831

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1928

 

Timestamped times Lotulelei was blocked by more than one offensive lineman vs Cowboys on Thanksgiving. This is with over 12 minutes left in the second quarter.

 

Yah but......

 

[BADOLBILZ]

30 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=875

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=917

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=970

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1002

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1047

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1831

https://youtu.be/zRl3W7xWTUs?t=1928

 

Timestamped times Lotulelei was blocked by more than one offensive lineman vs Cowboys on Thanksgiving. This is with over 12 minutes left in the second quarter.

 

As I said......I'm aware he gets some doubles.........regardless of what practice squad level DT is on the field they will draw their share of doubles at 1 tech.

 

I explained that for you and anyone who doesn't understand the importance of the ALIGNMENT in that equation.

 

What % of double teams drawn do you expect for a guy with a $10M AAV who averages about a tackle per game and doesn't make any impact behind the LOS?

 

The problem with your take is the assertion that in the "less than 50%" of plays where he isn't doubled he does a good job of beating his man and making plays.    If they go out of their way to give attention to another DL then it becomes his responsibility to make plays.   Which he OBVIOUSLY does not do.

7 minutes ago, flaz said:

 

Yah but......

 

He played 35 defensive snaps (46%) and 3 on specials.  He was double teamed on run plays only once where he was moved out of his gap and the RB went through it easily.  He drew no other doubles on runs, was easily handled by one blocker and made no impact outside of the two plays mentioned.

 

There were several pass plays where a second blocker engaged him, but he never pushed the pocket.  It just looked like the extra OL was just picking him up because he had no one else to block. 

 

 

FIFY........courtesy of @BarleyNY

 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

As I said......I'm aware he gets some doubles.........regardless of what practice squad level DT is on the field they will draw their share of doubles at 1 tech.

 

I explained that for you and anyone who doesn't understand the importance of the ALIGNMENT in that equation.

 

What % of double teams drawn do you expect for a guy with a $10M AAV who averages about a tackle per game and doesn't make any impact behind the LOS?

 

The problem with your take is the assertion that in the "less than 50%" of plays where he isn't doubled he does a good job of beating his man and making plays.    If they go out of their way to give attention to another DL then it becomes his responsibility to make plays.   Which he OBVIOUSLY does not do.

The guy you quoted and seemed to agree with said he was doubled like three times the whole game. That's mostly what I was responding to.

 

And the bolded is wrong. When Lotulelei got injured they tried Kyle Peko iirc and he just got obliterated. They tried a few different guys at 1tech this season and what happened was they couldn't win 1v1 or anchor vs a double team and the extra olineman just went downfield and picked up Edmunds. There aren't a lot of guys willing or able to do what Lotulelei does but I am tired of arguing that.