1. Chiefs 2. Browns 3. Bills

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 5/7/2021 at 8:43 PM, Boxcar said:

Not people here, silly. I'm talking about pundits, like Keyshawn Johnson.

 

Er, isn't that the very premise of the OP for this entire thread?  That by virtue of last season's showing and the off-season's additions, the Browns have moved past the Bills and are now the premier challenger to KC in the AFC?

[Rochesterfan]

On 5/8/2021 at 2:07 AM, NewEra said:

Idk.....i watch the majority of the daily talk shows on YouTube and I haven’t seen anyone crown them anything other than the winners of the offseason.  Not many have the Browns inside the top 4.  Many don’t even have them too 6-7.  
 

the Browns are being talked about more than us and the majority of the teams because they made splashy signings as they had more cap room.  We didn’t add much of anything new except Breida and Sanders in FA other than resigning our players (which isn’t deemed as splashy, even though they are very important).  The browns had a splashy draft.  We added several long term pieces that will pay dividends, mostly down the road.

 

I totally agree with what you are saying.
 

The biggest issue is: the OP and original point was that the Browns by virtue of the off-season have supplanted the Bills and are right now #2 in the AFC.  The title of the thread is literally 1.) Chiefs 2.) Browns 3.) Bills.

 

So while I totally agree the pundits seem to have the Browns 5th in the AFC and Vegas have them 9th or so in SB odds - the original point of this thread seems to be focused on the Browns via the draft and FA signings - now being the second best AFC team.

 

I went through the rosters via position groups and do not see a huge advantage either way.  The best player on either team is Allen by a wide margin.  The second best player is either Diggs or Chubb.  Myles Garrett is the best Defensive player on either team for what that is worth.

 

My feeling is last year the Browns played the schedule that the Bills played 2 years ago - “easy path” and nearly screwed them selves up with a late season loss to the Jets.  They squeaked into the playoffs and then by virtue of catching a very depleted and dejected Pittsburgh team got a playoff win.  This year that cupcake schedule becomes the juggernaut schedule the Bills faced.  They will need to be better just to get a record near as good.

 

The Bills on the other hand played a juggernaut schedule with the most playoff teams in the out of the contenders and produced a better record and were a significantly better team.  That schedule should back off significantly this year and the team has now dealt with some degree of expectations.  They should be ready to go.

 

Talent wise the 2 teams are close, but the #1 difference is the best player is Josh by far and that supersedes any minor talent gap in other places.  The coaching is also better and more attuned to today’s NFL in Buffalo. 
 

 

 

 

[TBBills]

Browns had one of the easiest schedules last year. The best team they beat was the Colts, just about every other win was against below .500 teams. They also got lucky with an imploding Steelers who sat players to gift them an in.

Edited May 9, 2021 by TBBills

[Mr. WEO]

24 pages makes this one of the most successful troll job here in years.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I totally agree with what you are saying.
 

The biggest issue is: the OP and original point was that the Browns by virtue of the off-season have supplanted the Bills and are right now #2 in the AFC.  The title of the thread is literally 1.) Chiefs 2.) Browns 3.) Bills.

 

So while I totally agree the pundits seem to have the Browns 5th in the AFC and Vegas have them 9th or so in SB odds - the original point of this thread seems to be focused on the Browns via the draft and FA signings - now being the second best AFC team.

 

I went through the rosters via position groups and do not see a huge advantage either way.  The best player on either team is Allen by a wide margin.  The second best player is either Diggs or Chubb.  Myles Garrett is the best Defensive player on either team for what that is worth.

 

My feeling is last year the Browns played the schedule that the Bills played 2 years ago - “easy path” and nearly screwed them selves up with a late season loss to the Jets.  They squeaked into the playoffs and then by virtue of catching a very depleted and dejected Pittsburgh team got a playoff win.  This year that cupcake schedule becomes the juggernaut schedule the Bills faced.  They will need to be better just to get a record near as good.

 

The Bills on the other hand played a juggernaut schedule with the most playoff teams in the out of the contenders and produced a better record and were a significantly better team.  That schedule should back off significantly this year and the team has now dealt with some degree of expectations.  They should be ready to go.

 

Talent wise the 2 teams are close, but the #1 difference is the best player is Josh by far and that supersedes any minor talent gap in other places.  The coaching is also better and more attuned to today’s NFL in Buffalo. 
 

 

 

 

Yeah....that’s what the OP is saying.  The guy I was replying to is saying that’s what he hears from the national pundits.  I listen and watch a lot of the National pundits and that’s just not something that I’ve seen.  1 out of 1000 have the browns ahead of the Bills.  The best thing I’ve heard nationally is that they’ve  “won the offseason”.  I would agree that they’ve had a great offseason and they are right behind us in the AFC.  If we faced the browns in the playoffs, not many would be shocked if the browns came away the victor.  I predict Bills -2.5
 

I agree with the body of your post. Josh supersedes the slight advantage in talent the browns have over the Bills (imo).  I -also believe that Myles Garrett is also being slightly undervalued on this board. Maybe the best DE in the league, the sports 2nd most important position.  If he’s not the best edge pass rusher in the league he’s very close and definitely the most physically dominant, by a wide margin (with chase young on the rise)  He’s a generational pass rushing talent imo.  
meanwhile the Bills have 1 pretty good 32 year old DE and 236 other guys that might be good eventually.  I really hope we helped even out the browns sizable advantage in the trenches.  I’m sure the people under the stairs will come out of the woodwork to oppose that statement.

[Zerovoltz]

I'll take the team with the better QB when it's mostly a wash on the rest of the roster.  Even if you thnk Cleveland is deeper and has some spots where they are better than the Bills....its not near enough to be ranked over them...Allen gets you a LOT of points as he should.  1. KC. 2. Bills.  Period.

[gobills1212]

On 5/2/2021 at 1:25 PM, Inigo Montoya said:

The Chiefs entered the off season after getting man handled in the Super Bowl because their O-line had fallen apart.  They blew up their O-line and decided to rebuild.  On paper at least, they look to have improved the line.  They signed Joe Thuney to a 5 year $80 million contract and he will slide into the left guard position.  They then signed Kyle Long to a one year deal to step into the right guard position.  They resigned Mike Remmers to play right tackle and then traded with the Ravens for Orlando Brown to step in as their left tackle.  They signed Austin Blythe from the Rams to play center, and then drafted the 2nd ranked center, Creed Humphrey, to push Blythe and develop into their future center.  The only free agent they lost of any consequence was Sammy Watkins which should not slow them down much.

 

I think on the whole the O-line is upgraded and they kept the rest of the band together.  I don't see any reasonable argument to say the Chiefs shouldn't remain the #1 seed in the AFC heading into the 2021 season.

 

The Browns will leap frog us this season and be the primary threat to the Chiefs.   If you look at the playoffs last year, the Browns came within a fumbled football out of the endzone from beating the Chiefs.  The Bills by comparison didn't even make a game of it against the Chiefs.  The Browns' roster seems to match up better against the Chiefs, and that was before the Browns very impressive off season.

 

The defense was the weak side of the ball last season and the Browns attacked this off season with that in mind.  They snagged John Johnson the best free agent safety on the market to address a huge weakness and also added CB Troy Hill who will be an instant upgrade.  They brought in Clowney to stack opposite Miles Garrett on the D-line.  They then drafted CB Greg Newsome and LB Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah who should both start this season.  The Browns bring back their offense intact and Mayfield will have the benefit of playing in the same offense for the first time in his career.  OBJ will also be back this season.

 

The Bills did a great job of resigning their key free agents this year and also upgraded the backup QB position.  They brought in Sanders to replace Brown which could be an up grade and added Hollister to the TE room.  We all hope that having Star back will have a ripple effect on the D-line and result in better play across the entire line and allow our LB play to improve as well.  The entire team will benefit from another year of coaching and scheme stability and hopefully some of our young players like Oliver and Edmunds will take a step forward this year.

 

 

Overview   A lot is made of the Bills retaining their own talent, and I agree that Beane did a great job of maintaining a roster that made it to the AFC Championship game, but the uncomfortable truth is that the Chiefs maintained their roster too AND improved their O-Line.   The Browns also avoided any key free agency loses AND improved their defensive secondary and brought in Clowney on the D-line.  The Browns and Chiefs will also benefit from another year of coaching and scheme stability just like the Bills.

 

The off season isn't over yet, but the free agency period is winding down and the Draft is over.  Baring injuries, any changes to the rosters of the Chiefs, Browns, and Bills before opening weekend will likely just be on the margins before opening weekend.  When Andy Reid looks out across the AFC, I think he is probably more worried about what is going on in Cleveland than what is going on in Buffalo.  I think the Browns have improved enough this off season to move past us and become the primary threat to the Chiefs this year. 

 

At this point I'd rank the AFC;    1. Chiefs  2. Browns  3. Bills

Any attention is good attention,  am i right?!

[snowbelt_subie]

lots of triggered bills fans is understandable its a bills forum.  As a browns fan i dont think the browns have jumped the bills i feel like its a group of teams behind KS and they are all pretty even.

 

its KS and then Bills, Tenn, Cle, Indy and Balt Mia.  any of the teams in the second tier can win against each other depending on the matchup and the day they are all close enough.  

 

i see most posters saying the browns cant make the step due baker and and offense.  im not sure that they watched any browns games?   the browns had to outscore pretty much everyone because the D was so bad most of the year.  here are the points given up by the browns D

 

38-ravens

30- beng

20- wash

38- dal

23- indy

38- steelers

34- bengals

 

these 3 games were terrible weather high winds/ rain making the D seem better than it was neither offense could not throw the ball in these games

 

16- raiders

10- hou

17- eagles

 

now back to normal

 

25-jags

35- titans

47- ravens

6- giants (the only good game by the d all year)

23-jets

22- steelers backups

 

the browns D was rated around #20 in most categories and aided by 3 terrible weather games that helped the stats.  If the browns Defense can make the next step that is the thing that needs to happen for the browns to take the next step. 

 

as far as buffalo's defense they gave up 30 points only 3 times including the playoffs  the browns gave up over 30 8 time.

 

 

[Patrick Duffy]

On 5/9/2021 at 10:01 AM, TBBills said:

Browns had one of the easiest schedules last year. The best team they beat was the Colts, just about every other win was against below .500 teams. They also got lucky with an imploding Steelers who sat players to gift them an in.

Yeah that division for sure had one of the easier schedules. Steelers just seemed like a shell of themselves after that 1st loss to Washington. Went straight down hill from there it seemed. So not sure if Steelers sitting their players made too much difference.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, snowbelt_subie said:

lots of triggered bills fans is understandable its a bills forum.  As a browns fan i dont think the browns have jumped the bills i feel like its a group of teams behind KS and they are all pretty even.

 

its KS and then Bills, Tenn, Cle, Indy and Balt Mia.  any of the teams in the second tier can win against each other depending on the matchup and the day they are all close enough.  

 

i see most posters saying the browns cant make the step due baker and and offense.  im not sure that they watched any browns games?   the browns had to outscore pretty much everyone because the D was so bad most of the year.  here are the points given up by the browns D

 

38-ravens

30- beng

20- wash

38- dal

23- indy

38- steelers

34- bengals

 

these 3 games were terrible weather high winds/ rain making the D seem better than it was neither offense could not throw the ball in these games

 

16- raiders

10- hou

17- eagles

 

now back to normal

 

25-jags

35- titans

47- ravens

6- giants (the only good game by the d all year)

23-jets

22- steelers backups

 

the browns D was rated around #20 in most categories and aided by 3 terrible weather games that helped the stats.  If the browns Defense can make the next step that is the thing that needs to happen for the browns to take the next step. 

 

as far as buffalo's defense they gave up 30 points only 3 times including the playoffs  the browns gave up over 30 8 time.

 

 

Totally agree that the biggest question for the Browns is do all the offseason moves fix the back 7 on defense. 

 

The thing that puts the Bills second to only KC is we have the next best Quarterback and he is a tier minimum ahead of the other guys that potential AFC contenders have.

[snowbelt_subie]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Totally agree that the biggest question for the Browns is do all the offseason moves fix the back 7 on defense. 

 

The thing that puts the Bills second to only KC is we have the next best Quarterback and he is a tier minimum ahead of the other guys that potential AFC contenders have.

 

 

if your going on last years performance you are correct.   the problem is its a year to year league and we dont know how most the qbs will perform other than a handful of guys that have done it for 5+ years. 

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, snowbelt_subie said:

 

 

if your going on last years performance you are correct.   the problem is its a year to year league and we dont know how most the qbs will perform other than a handful of guys that have done it for 5+ years. 

 

Josh is legit man. And this is coming from someone who hated the pick. If you are banking on Josh regressing to bring the Bills back to the pack you are gonna be sorely disappointed. The possibility for the Bills to regress is that teams catch on them more schematically on offense and the NFL goes back to 2019 form in calling offensive line penalties, because we benefitted in pass pro from being able to get away with a fair bit more in 2020 than had been allowable previously.

[snowbelt_subie]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Josh is legit man. And this is coming from someone who hated the pick. If you are banking on Josh regressing to bring the Bills back to the pack you are gonna be sorely disappointed. The possibility for the Bills to regress is that teams catch on them more schematically on offense and the NFL goes back to 2019 form in calling offensive line penalties, because we benefitted in pass pro from being able to get away with a fair bit more in 2020 than had been allowable previously.

 

not necessarily regressing but you are right great success is hard to replicate QB production varies quite a bit for lots of reasons. josh had a good year last year but thinking he is just going to throw 40 tds and 10 int every year is a pipedream.  

 

defenses catch on they counter and then the offenses have to regroup.  that's why mahomes went from 50 tds to 26 tds.  Thats why wentz went from 33tds to 21 tds the next year.  lamar 36 to 26 tds. 

 

its not just plug in last years production the next year. josh will probably vary from 25 tds to 40 tds with 10-15 interceptions over his career per year and that's good. 

 

they will need to establish some sort of a running game or teams are going to really key in on stopping the passing game.

[GunnerBill]

32 minutes ago, snowbelt_subie said:

 

not necessarily regressing but you are right great success is hard to replicate QB production varies quite a bit for lots of reasons. josh had a good year last year but thinking he is just going to throw 40 tds and 10 int every year is a pipedream.  

 

defenses catch on they counter and then the offenses have to regroup.  that's why mahomes went from 50 tds to 26 tds.  Thats why wentz went from 33tds to 21 tds the next year.  lamar 36 to 26 tds. 

 

its not just plug in last years production the next year. josh will probably vary from 25 tds to 40 tds with 10-15 interceptions over his career per year and that's good. 

 

they will need to establish some sort of a running game or teams are going to really key in on stopping the passing game.

 

The numbers may fluctuate a bit. But Mahomes is the only guy he is comparable to there. Jackson's production was never going to be sustainable because his TD:Attempt number was crazy and there was an obvious and entirely predictable reversion to the mean. As for Wentz you are talking to the wrong guy I always said he was trash. Even his great year in Philly so much of his game was wrong that I just couldn't see him continuing to succeed.

 

I don't think Josh Allen is comparable to either of those cases. Yes the numbers might fluctuate but his performance levels are gonna be high for years to come. If you want to stop the Bills you are gonna have to have a better plan than hoping Josh is bad. He will be a top 5 Quarterback again in 2021. If you don't agree that's fine. Come back in February.

Edited May 10, 2021 by GunnerBill

[BillsFan692]

Baker Mayfield is a hobbit quarterback and quite frankly not fit to hold JA17's jock strap. 

But other than that, how is everyone doing?:P

Edited May 12, 2021 by BillsFan692

[snowbelt_subie]

19 minutes ago, BillsFan692 said:

Baker Mayfield is a hobbit quarterback and quite frankly not fit to hold JA17's jock strap. 

But other than that, how is everyone doing?:P

 

i mean he is 0-1 vs mayfield other than that he is better.  he just might not want to lose another game or 2 because mayfield might start to be his daddy. 

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

7 minutes ago, snowbelt_subie said:

 

i mean he is 0-1 vs mayfield other than that he is better.  he just might not want to lose another game or 2 because mayfield might start to be his daddy. 

We've got some really slanted homer posts by Bills fans, but this takes the homer trophy!  Mayfield is a good QB at times and will win some games.  Allen is an elite QB that put it all together last season.  He is a physical freak of nature and now his decision making, understanding of the game,  and mechanics have all caught up to his arm talent.  

[snowbelt_subie]

8 minutes ago, chknwing334 said:

We've got some really slanted homer posts by Bills fans, but this takes the homer trophy!  Mayfield is a good QB at times and will win some games.  Allen is an elite QB that put it all together last season.  He is a physical freak of nature and now his decision making, understanding of the game,  and mechanics have all caught up to his arm talent.  

 

so if he loses another game or 2 to Mayfield you don't think this will be a "thing" it will be.  it wont mater who you think is more talented. 

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

21 minutes ago, snowbelt_subie said:

 

so if he loses another game or 2 to Mayfield you don't think this will be a "thing" it will be.  it wont mater who you think is more talented. 

No.  I don't think a game from two years ago has set the stage for Mayfield potentially becoming "Josh's daddy."   A game where Mayfield threw for 238 yards while Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt averaged 6 YPC.  Mayfield is nobody's daddy.  Annoying uncle maybe.

Edited May 12, 2021 by chknwing334

[Patrick Duffy]

On 5/10/2021 at 3:51 PM, snowbelt_subie said:

 

 

if your going on last years performance you are correct.   the problem is its a year to year league and we dont know how most the qbs will perform other than a handful of guys that have done it for 5+ years. 

That has some truth to it. I look at this though, each year Allen has went above and beyond with improvement. 2018-Bills had worst WR's and horrible OL in the NFL. 2019-Got some help with Bease/Brown, showed good improvement. 2020- Add Diggs with Bease/Brown and better OL and Allen was on fire.

 

Not only that, Allen and co. will once again be in the same system with Daboll. So I don't think he will take a step back much if any at all. I think there's a better chance of more improvement than there is a step back. And that will be scary for opposing teams.