The end of excuses for defensive draft picks

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

11 hours ago, DCofNC said:

White was not a Beane pick and that could have been Maholmes, so let’s take a look at that.  Signing a RT, drafting a starting LB and a kicker would not save your job.  
 

If they hadn’t gotten lucky as hell with Allen, they are already out the door.  Ask Mitch Turbiski how things went in Chicago after his failed third year.  The Bills were that close to being in the same spot.  Luckily, Allen turned the corner, Mitch didn’t.  

"Lucky as hell" with Allen? LOL. They scouted the hell out of that pick and nailed it. 

At the end of the day, you sound like a loser who bet against the franchise and is making excuses. All I have to say is "scoreboard". Look at the W's and L's. These guys are nailing it. 

[DCofNC]

24 minutes ago, Bob Chandler's Hands said:

"Lucky as hell" with Allen? LOL. They scouted the hell out of that pick and nailed it. 

At the end of the day, you sound like a loser who bet against the franchise and is making excuses. All I have to say is "scoreboard". Look at the W's and L's. These guys are nailing it. 

They hit on one pick, the scoreboard says otherwise.  But you go on being a homer. 3 drafts, one impact player from all of them. One.  

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is the list we should really be looking at if we are talking where does Edmunds fit in this market. got rid of the 3-4 edge rushers. 

Well done, this was my thinking too.  These guys are paid to rush the passer.  He belongs in the MLB pay scale conversation.  To me he’s not as valuable as Milano, so the discussion starts there. 

The next question is, with the contract that’s coming for JA, is there room for $20+ M a year in LBs who aren’t real difference makers?  To this point, Edmunds is slightly above replacement level player and we are acting like he deserves to be paid top 5 at his position.  Absolutely, unequivocally, he is not worth that.  He is rivaling Clowney for most over rated player by fans and announcers alike because of his draft analysis.  They were calling him the next LT,  the only reason to bring him and Taylor up in the same conversation is to ask if LT is filing a defamation suit against ESPN for mentioning him in comparison to this guy.  He’s a hell of an athlete, but he’s not a great football player.  He has next to nothing in terms of instincts or feel for the game.  Good qbs manipulate him so easily in coverage it’s a joke, he can’t shed blockers coming north/south and he can’t stay with TEs in coverage, so what exactly is it that he does to justify his hype?  Paul Posluzney all over again.  Go let somebody else pay you, we can do as well or better for far less.

Edited April 20, 2021 by DCofNC

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

19 hours ago, NewEra said:

2

 

19 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

That's what I thought (and was afraid of).

 

So Edmunds will cost us $14.791M in 2022 if we trigger his 5th year option. Cap should be back up next year so I'm not too worried about that, but that number does make it a more interesting decision for Beane.

Incorrect. He was selected to one pro bowl. And played in another as an alternate which doesn’t count for these purposes. His 5th year option would be 12.7 million 

[NewEra]

13 minutes ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

 

Incorrect. He was selected to one pro bowl. And played in another as an alternate which doesn’t count for these purposes. His 5th year option would be 12.7 million 

I mean, it’s not incorrect. He’s made 2 pro bowls.  That was the question

 

I’m glad that it doesn’t count for these purposes.

 

[K-9]

14 minutes ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

 

Incorrect. He was selected to one pro bowl. And played in another as an alternate which doesn’t count for these purposes. His 5th year option would be 12.7 million 

Yep. It’s pretty standard language in contracts around the league. That’s not to say that some players don’t have other language regarding selection as a pro bowl alternate, they might. But I’d bet that’s the exception to the rule. 

[DrDawkinstein]

16 minutes ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

 

Incorrect. He was selected to one pro bowl. And played in another as an alternate which doesn’t count for these purposes. His 5th year option would be 12.7 million 

 

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

I mean, it’s not incorrect. He’s made 2 pro bowls.  That was the question

 

I’m glad that it doesn’t count for these purposes.

 

 

Yeah, I wasnt sure how the selected vs alternate worked either.

 

@Rock-A-Bye Beasley, I'd be interested if you had a link or something explaining that. I appreciate the info, but this stuff gets so ridiculously complicated, I'd like to see it explained.

Thanks!

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

2 hours ago, DCofNC said:

They hit on one pick, the scoreboard says otherwise.  But you go on being a homer. 3 drafts, one impact player from all of them. One.  

There is only one scoreboard that counts! It's called winning football games. 

10-6, 13-3...

We'll see how 2021 goes, shall we?

 

I've been with this team and the NFL for 40+ years now. I get to be a homer if I want but in this case the burden of proof falls on the guy calling the front office inept while they put together a winner on the field. 

[DCofNC]

2 hours ago, Bob Chandler's Hands said:

There is only one scoreboard that counts! It's called winning football games. 

10-6, 13-3...

We'll see how 2021 goes, shall we?

 

I've been with this team and the NFL for 40+ years now. I get to be a homer if I want but in this case the burden of proof falls on the guy calling the front office inept while they put together a winner on the field. 

You are choosing to ignore the actual argument here.  They hit on the QB and as has been said, he is carrying the underwhelming D that has had multiple top picks spent on it, with zero impact players.  If you can’t see it, there’s no point in debating anything here anyway.

[colin]

as far as i am concerned, edmunds is better than cunningham, so even if the latter's contract was a bit inflated, based on cap going up and such, he's worth in that context pretty reasonably.

 

 

[Just Joshin']

On 4/19/2021 at 2:24 PM, eball said:

I think you and @FireChans should go out for coffee. 

Have you ever seen them together?  Maybe same person.

[YattaOkasan]

6 hours ago, Bob Chandler's Hands said:

There is only one scoreboard that counts! It's called winning football games. 

10-6, 13-3...

We'll see how 2021 goes, shall we?

 

I've been with this team and the NFL for 40+ years now. I get to be a homer if I want but in this case the burden of proof falls on the guy calling the front office inept while they put together a winner on the field. 

I would say Taron, Teller, singeltary, and Davis were all hits. Ed is also very close. Beane likes to take high ceiling players in the first. It’s probably more surprising Josh peaked so quickly rather than others haven’t. Happy to give the 1st round picks more time to develop. 

[Tcali]

12 hours ago, GreggTX said:

That goes double for Edmunds and Oliver. They were 1st round picks. As such, they should not be using the excuse that they need to have a better 1-Tech or DE's to play better. They should be the ones elevating the performance of the people around them.

right on the money Gregg.As soon as that excuse comes up you probably  have a dud.

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

6 hours ago, DCofNC said:

You are choosing to ignore the actual argument here.  They hit on the QB and as has been said, he is carrying the underwhelming D that has had multiple top picks spent on it, with zero impact players.  If you can’t see it, there’s no point in debating anything here anyway.

No, I understand your point. You are more interested in style than results. Got it. 

[Orlando Tim]

On 4/19/2021 at 2:29 PM, Playoff Win said:

This past season a number of drafted players on defense didn’t perform up to expectations. 
 

Ed Oliver. Excuse: was playing out of position at one tech.

Harrison Phillips. Excuse: was recovering from injury. 
Tremaine Edmunds. Excuse #1: was compensating for bad DL play. Excuse #2: was too young.

A.J. Epenesa. Excuse: was a rookie. 
 

Most of the above excuses are pretty solid. That said, they all go away this season. By the end of the year we should know what we have or don’t have with all four players. 

Epenesa had no training camp and was an avg end by end of season, Edmunds went to the pro bowl with a bum shoulder for 6 games, Phillips was recovering from a huge injury. All played as expected considering situation. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

12 hours ago, billsfan_34 said:

Edmunds is an OLB, all day every day. That is one of the issues and he played hurt for a big chunk of the season without Milano next to him.

Sadly McD does not seem to agree.  

[Paup 1995MVP]

On 4/19/2021 at 6:40 PM, Ya Digg? said:

Wait, you’re seriously saying he wouldn’t get on the field over Sam Rogers or John Holacek?? Yikes! Putting that aside doe just a second, you can’t compare older linebackers to now. Most linebackers from the 80’s and 90’s wouldn’t be able to play in today’s game-they weren’t fast enough or athletic enough. I understand that you’re voicing your displeasure about Edmunds and I love a good hyperbole too, just seems a bit too far out there 

I agree Ya Digg that the game is much different today then it was 25-30 years ago.  Holacek was a thumper.  Old school hard nosed traditional LB.  Rogers was good in what he did also.  Were they super athletic?  Not really.  However, they were very good (not great) playing their positions in that era.  I don't think that Edmunds is good at playing his position in this era.  I know I am hard on him.  But when you are playing in the middle of your defense, you need to be if not a special player, at least pretty dam good.  London Fletcher was that guy when he roamed the middle for the Rams Bills and Redskins.  Not a HOF but a dam good anchor for the defense.  I want Edmunds to be approaching that level this year, in the way he plays and leads.  I would not give him the 5th year option.  However, if he plays lights out (a big question mark) we can potentially sign him long term after the season.  I think Beaner agrees w me.  (time will tell)

[billsfan_34]

On 4/20/2021 at 10:38 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

Sadly McD does not seem to agree.  

Nope- oh well 

[TheFunPolice]

Epenesa was pretty solid in the second half of the season I thought...

 

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Hmmm... I got completely flamed for posting a thread asking if Ed Oliver was in danger of being in BUST territory and how he isn't playing close to his draft position. I guess it's about who ya know...😒

On 4/19/2021 at 2:29 PM, Playoff Win said:

This past season a number of drafted players on defense didn’t perform up to expectations. 
 

Ed Oliver. Excuse: was playing out of position at one tech.

Harrison Phillips. Excuse: was recovering from injury. 
Tremaine Edmunds. Excuse #1: was compensating for bad DL play. Excuse #2: was too young.

A.J. Epenesa. Excuse: was a rookie. 
 

Most of the above excuses are pretty solid. That said, they all go away this season. By the end of the year we should know what we have or don’t have with all four players. 

 

This "out of position" crap had been going on since his Houston days. Football players produce. Now if he was playing Safety I would understand.

[Rocket94]

On 4/19/2021 at 1:29 PM, Playoff Win said:

This past season a number of drafted players on defense didn’t perform up to expectations. 
 

Ed Oliver. Excuse: was playing out of position at one tech.

Harrison Phillips. Excuse: was recovering from injury. 
Tremaine Edmunds. Excuse #1: was compensating for bad DL play. Excuse #2: was too young.

A.J. Epenesa. Excuse: was a rookie. 
 

Most of the above excuses are pretty solid. That said, they all go away this season. By the end of the year we should know what we have or don’t have with all four players. 

Thank you!