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The end of excuses for defensive draft picks


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1   Khalil Mack  CHI  OLB                    $23,500,000

2  Von Miller     DEN  OLB                  $19,016,667

3  Bobby Wagner   SEA   ILB             $18,000,000

4   Shaquil Barrett   TB   OLB            $17,000,000

5   C.J. Mosley   NYJ   ILB                 $17,000,000

6   Bud Dupree   TEN   OLB             $16,500,000

7  Za'Darius Smith   GB   OLB         $16,500,000

8   Chandler Jones   ARI   OLB        $16,500,000

9   Leonard Floyd   LAR   OLB         $16,000,000

10 Zach Cunningham HOU ILB       $14,500,000

11   Deion Jones   ATL  ILB              $14,250,000

12   Myles Jack JAC  ILB                 $14,250,000

13   Robert Quinn    CHI  OLB         $14,000,000

14   Matt Judon    NE      OLB          $13,625,000

15  Shaq Thompson  CAR  ILB        $13,608,250

16  Whitney Mercilus  HOU  OLB    $13,500,000

17  Preston Smith  GB  OLB            $13,000,000

18  Jason Pierre-Paul  TB  OLB      $12,500,000

19  Lavonte David  TB  OLB            $12,500,000

20  Cory Littleton  LV  ILB               $11,750,000

21  Jaylon Smith  DAL  ILB              $11,403,500

22  Joe Schobert  JAC  ILB             $10,750,000

23  Matt Milano  BUF  OLB              $10,375,000

24  Blake Martinez  NYG  ILB          $10,250,000

25  Benardrick McKinney MIA ILB  $10,000,000

26  Eric Kendricks  MIN  ILB            $10,000,000

27  Jamie Collins  DET  OLB           $10,000,000

28  Demario Davis  NO  OLB          $9,000,000

29  Anthony Hitchens KC ILB        $9,000,000

30  Dont'a Hightower  NE  ILB       $8,875,000

31  Chase Young  WAS OLB          $8,640,899

32  Anthony Barr  MIN  OLB          $8,635,000

33  Jordan Hicks  ARI  ILB             $8,500,000

34  Devin White  TB  ILB               $7,328,954

35  Danny Trevathan  CHI ILB      $7,250,000

36  Nick Kwiatkoski  LV  OLB        $7,000,000

37  Bradley Chubb  DEN  OLB      $6,817,810

38  Devon Kennard  ARI  OLB       $6,666,667

39  Samson Ebukam  SF  OLB       $6,000,000

40  Haason Reddick  CAR  OLB    $6,000,000

41  A.J. Klein  BUF  OLB                 $6,000,000

42  Kyle Van Noy   NE     ILB          $6,000,000

43  Jarrad Davis  NYJ  ILB             $5,500,000

44  Tyus Bowser  BAL  OLB           $5,500,000

45  Jayon Brown   TEN  ILB           $5,300,000

46  Isaiah Simmons  ARI  OLB        $5,166,014

47  Devin Bush   PIT  ILB                $4,717,941

48  Roquan Smith  CHI  ILB            $4,619,292

49  Nicholas Morrow  LV  OLB        $4,500,000

50  Rashan Gary  GB  OLB              $3,969,328

51  Tyler Matakevich  BUF  ILB       $3,575,000

52  Kevin Pierre-Louis  HOU OLB   $3,500,000

53  Brian Burns  CAR  OLB             $3,385,046

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That goes double for Edmunds and Oliver. They were 1st round picks. As such, they should not be using the excuse that they need to have a better 1-Tech or DE's to play better. They should be the ones elevating the performance of the people around them.

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4 hours ago, just1hugheser said:

 

Isn't it based on a combinaiton of circumstances, time, and subjective opinion?

 

 

No, not particularly. It's more about motivation. A reason doesn't have a motivation. It's just an explanation or cause.

 

Whereas the purpose of an excuse is to justify a mistake or problem or fault.

 

People without much of an argument generally refer to reasons as excuses. Not about themselves, of course, but about people they don't like.

 

 

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1 hour ago, GreggTX said:

That goes double for Edmunds and Oliver. They were 1st round picks. As such, they should not be using the excuse that they need to have a better 1-Tech or DE's to play better. They should be the ones elevating the performance of the people around them.

 

 

Could you just real quick find a quotation from Edmunds or Oliver blaming problems on anything? We can wait. If you find a quotation like that, your post will have a tiny little something behind it. But you won't. And it doesn't.

 

It isn't Edmunds or Oliver making excuses. It's sensible football people, none of whom play for the Bills. And noting that teams are way way more complex than you're pretending here is only acknowledging reality and understanding what happens on the field.

 

Would you make the same argument about how badly Mahomes played in the Super Bowl? I mean, he was a first-round pick. According to your logic he didn't need better OL play to win that game. He should have elevated the performance of the people around him, including that OL.

 

The idea is dumb. Even the best players in the league need the people around them to play well if they're going to maximize performance. That's why they're called football "teams."

Edited by Thurman#1
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2 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Am I the only person in the universe who thought Oliver was one of our best players last season?

 

No, Brandon Beane did too. He said the numbers are not indicative of how well Ed played. I thought he played really well at times and not well enough at others. It is consistency with Ed Oliver for me. The talent is undeniable and pops off the tape. Just gotta get more consistent. Down in and down out. 

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3 hours ago, just1hugheser said:

1   Khalil Mack  CHI  OLB                    $23,500,000

2  Von Miller     DEN  OLB                  $19,016,667

3  Bobby Wagner   SEA   ILB             $18,000,000

4   Shaquil Barrett   TB   OLB            $17,000,000

5   C.J. Mosley   NYJ   ILB                 $17,000,000

6   Bud Dupree   TEN   OLB             $16,500,000

7  Za'Darius Smith   GB   OLB         $16,500,000

8   Chandler Jones   ARI   OLB        $16,500,000

9   Leonard Floyd   LAR   OLB         $16,000,000

10 Zach Cunningham HOU ILB       $14,500,000

11   Deion Jones   ATL  ILB              $14,250,000

12   Myles Jack JAC  ILB                 $14,250,000

13   Robert Quinn    CHI  OLB         $14,000,000

14   Matt Judon    NE      OLB          $13,625,000

15  Shaq Thompson  CAR  ILB        $13,608,250

16  Whitney Mercilus  HOU  OLB    $13,500,000

17  Preston Smith  GB  OLB            $13,000,000

18  Jason Pierre-Paul  TB  OLB      $12,500,000

19  Lavonte David  TB  OLB            $12,500,000

20  Cory Littleton  LV  ILB               $11,750,000

21  Jaylon Smith  DAL  ILB              $11,403,500

22  Joe Schobert  JAC  ILB             $10,750,000

23  Matt Milano  BUF  OLB              $10,375,000

24  Blake Martinez  NYG  ILB          $10,250,000

25  Benardrick McKinney MIA ILB  $10,000,000

26  Eric Kendricks  MIN  ILB            $10,000,000

27  Jamie Collins  DET  OLB           $10,000,000

28  Demario Davis  NO  OLB          $9,000,000

29  Anthony Hitchens KC ILB        $9,000,000

30  Dont'a Hightower  NE  ILB       $8,875,000

31  Chase Young  WAS OLB          $8,640,899

32  Anthony Barr  MIN  OLB          $8,635,000

33  Jordan Hicks  ARI  ILB             $8,500,000

34  Devin White  TB  ILB               $7,328,954

35  Danny Trevathan  CHI ILB      $7,250,000

36  Nick Kwiatkoski  LV  OLB        $7,000,000

37  Bradley Chubb  DEN  OLB      $6,817,810

38  Devon Kennard  ARI  OLB       $6,666,667

39  Samson Ebukam  SF  OLB       $6,000,000

40  Haason Reddick  CAR  OLB    $6,000,000

41  A.J. Klein  BUF  OLB                 $6,000,000

42  Kyle Van Noy   NE     ILB          $6,000,000

43  Jarrad Davis  NYJ  ILB             $5,500,000

44  Tyus Bowser  BAL  OLB           $5,500,000

45  Jayon Brown   TEN  ILB           $5,300,000

46  Isaiah Simmons  ARI  OLB        $5,166,014

47  Devin Bush   PIT  ILB                $4,717,941

48  Roquan Smith  CHI  ILB            $4,619,292

49  Nicholas Morrow  LV  OLB        $4,500,000

50  Rashan Gary  GB  OLB              $3,969,328

51  Tyler Matakevich  BUF  ILB       $3,575,000

52  Kevin Pierre-Louis  HOU OLB   $3,500,000

53  Brian Burns  CAR  OLB             $3,385,046

 

That is the list we should really be looking at if we are talking where does Edmunds fit in this market. got rid of the 3-4 edge rushers. 

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1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is the list we should really be looking at if we are talking where does Edmunds fit in this market. got rid of the 3-4 edge rushers. 

That CJ Mosley contract should be chalked up to blatant Jets stupidity and not seriously considered. :thumbsup:

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20 minutes ago, H2o said:

That CJ Mosley contract should be chalked up to blatant Jets stupidity and not seriously considered. :thumbsup:

 

The Zach Cunningham one isn't much better. He is a slightly above average inside 'backer. A solid starter, but no more than that. Edmunds's numbers actually compare pretty favourably to in a lot of areas. 

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3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Zach Cunningham one isn't much better. He is a slightly above average inside 'backer. A solid starter, but no more than that. Edmunds's numbers actually compare pretty favourably to in a lot of areas. 

Right now he's between that #10 and #21 range if we are talking long term. If the light switch completely comes on and the young man starts living up to his potential then it could end up being more. He'll definitely want more $$$ than Milano. Even with the hefty price tag I think the Bills pick up the 5th year option and go from there. 

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12 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

Those are all fair points that I agree with. You made a great point about Reggie White type players. It’s understandable what they want Epenesa to be, it just worries me to ask that much from a young player. A second draft choice is a big investment in someone you want to completely change. It’s like getting married with the expectation the person completely changes themselves after the wedding. Why didn’t they just go after someone who fit what they wanted ? 

Apart from the TE situation, I think this regime has been great with the offense. I’m not sure what they’re trying to build on defense. I still believe that McD is a phenomenal defensive coach. I’d love to see what he could do with less awkward fits on defense. 

Agree.  I've been quite outspoken that they need to draft a true edge player and/or move Edmunds to Edge.  The kid from Carolina Obada is intriguing. 6-5 and 265 and had 5.5 sacks last year.  Quite a few on here feel CB#2 is more of a need.  I get that and they may be correct, but I'm higher on Wallace than others.  I feel more pass rush helps the secondary more than adding another CB.  Epenesa developing, a rookie edge, moving Oliver back to 3-tech all the time, and developing the successor to Star should be the plan for the DL this year. 

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59 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No, Brandon Beane did too. He said the numbers are not indicative of how well Ed played. I thought he played really well at times and not well enough at others. It is consistency with Ed Oliver for me. The talent is undeniable and pops off the tape. Just gotta get more consistent. Down in and down out. 

This is spot on.  He really flashed at times.  Hughes was still the best DL by far but Oliver played well at times too.  Nowhere near a top 10 draft pick status but that is what he will always be compared against.  You would want a top 10 pick in the conversation as top 3 or 4 in the league at their position.  I'm not sure he is top 10 in the conference yet but he had his moments last year.  DT's take a while to develop.  I think we will see what Oliver's ceiling will look like this year.  I'm thinking 8 sacks, a handful of tackles for loss, and two forced fumbles.  

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I think we need a better and more informed analysis on these players performances - there is a ton of Couch Coaching/GM people saying that those 4 players are bad/underperforming while those who actually work directly in the league or have experience playing/coaching at the NFL level suggest they are all doing just fine. Just throwing my 2 cents out here - but if nothing else the players you've mentioned are solid starters - just simply not HOF to Elite. While - yes - you would like for higher draft picks to produce better numbers - it is certainly not a total failure for them to be drafted and producing at the level they are doing so. 

 

More to the point - we are in an interesting position this year for the draft that I would imagine is extremely envious (or the saying "it's a good problem to have") in which, we are solely looking for that ELITE talent - virtually regardless of position - to upgrade solid starters because there are no true holes on the team. The only reason we are in this position is because we have - since the new Coach/GM dynamic was put in place - drafted very well (players are contributing and still on the team taking meaningful snaps while at least producing). 

 

It's fascinating how quickly people on the board have forgotten how bad we were at drafting, across all rounds, for the majority of needs, for SOOOOOO long.

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1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Am I the only person in the universe who thought Oliver was one of our best players last season?

You have company, but there doesn’t seem to be a lot of us. I get the impression that unless a player is constantly making eye popping plays, then people are missing the subtleties of the game. How many times does a guy make a great play simply because the players around him did their job? I submit it happens far more than we often know. 

Edited by K-9
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19 hours ago, Playoff Win said:

This past season a number of drafted players on defense didn’t perform up to expectations. 
 

Ed Oliver. Excuse: was playing out of position at one tech.

Harrison Phillips. Excuse: was recovering from injury. 
Tremaine Edmunds. Excuse #1: was compensating for bad DL play. Excuse #2: was too young.

A.J. Epenesa. Excuse: was a rookie. 
 

Most of the above excuses are pretty solid. That said, they all go away this season. By the end of the year we should know what we have or don’t have with all four players. 

This couldn't go into the "why can't Beane get the defense right" thread?

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18 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Good OP!

As for Edmunds he played terribly against Baltimore and KC when he was supposedly fully healed. I am rooting for him because if he was truly a ProBowl level player he can anchor the defense for another 5-7 years. 

I just have not seen it. I have been critical of him for a while now.  To be fair I watched a 2020 highlight film and he did have a real nice goal line stop on a running play last year. I think it was San Fran or Denver game( I missed them both). Other than that I don't recall any significant plays he made all year.

Oliver has flashed. DTs take time to develop. Still think he can be a 8-10 sack guy from the interior.

Epenesa also flashed.

Harrison is just not good enough. He was a penetrating DT at Stanford not a guy that took on double teams. He may be a training camp cut if they draft 1-tech DT.

Edmunds is an OLB, all day every day. That is one of the issues and he played hurt for a big chunk of the season without Milano next to him.

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