Giving The D A Pass

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

48 minutes ago, Kwai San said:

 

Nefarious but well thought out.....sure you aren't BB formerly of Roch???

 

May as well take lessons from the best.

 

It seems every year there's one player who was an active participant throughout training camp and pre-season, all of a sudden 2 days before roster cut down day are reported injured and on IR.  Last year was Hodgins though think he did actually have surgery, in 2019 the mystery injury was to J Croom.  Maybe Pegula's daughter  hurt him too much.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Lv-Bills said:

Two things I'm kind of perplexed at that have happened over the course of the offseason. 

 

#1  Somewhere last year, and over the last month or so, Bills fans turned Matt Milano into Derrick Brooks.  I don't get it.  I'm glad we got Milano back.  He adds to our team and the unit is definitely better with him in the lineup.  But man, his legend grew 1000 fold over the season.  He's a nice linebacker, but he's nowhere near what everyone is making him out to be.  I was much happier we got him back AFTER we saw the Williams and Feliciano signings.  I think those two O lineman were much more important to the Bills than Milano.   Having all three is wonderful though.  But man, the kids legend grew exponentially with fans.  Saw many "insider" articles calling him one of the guys in the league that will be "overpaid" this free agency not matching what he's actually worth (much less).  However, insider articles also aren't worth much more than message board fodder these days, as there are many informed fans that have just as good of opinions as many insiders. 

 

#2  The same thing is happening with Star.  This was a guy that almost everyone thought was underachieving on the field two years ago.  There were countless articles that actually used him as an example as a player that would opt out of the 2020 Covid season because he/they thought were almost certain to get cut.  So, here's another guy's legend that has somehow blown up and turned in to this mythical beast that held together the Bills run defense.  Not really true.  Star was OK 2 years ago.  Again, he was criticized often, and many thought he was way overpaid.   Now, all of a sudden, his absence was why the Bills struggled.  Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson had more to do with our line than anything Star did.  I know these guys have play roles, and Star's role was different than Lawson and Phillips, but the Bills defensive line had a few guys that wreaked havoc and caused disruption in the backfield.  Mainly from Phillips and Lawson.  That helped set up the defense to create long down and distance at key times that benefitted how they were able to force passing situations, thus teams not running on us as much.   We let both go.  I wish we could have kept Phillips somehow.  Not saying we don't need Star, but man, I'm not sure how his legend has gotten so big all of a sudden.  

 

Glad we have all of these guys back.  We are better with them, than without them.  However, we have a lot to do on defense.  

 

Ever heard the saying "you never know what you've got 'til it's gone"?

[John from Riverside]

I was dissapointed in our D last season......not gonna lie.

 

Just not enough plays.....not enough turnovers

 

You could make the case that our schedule was much tougher last year.....but really hope we see a resurgence this year.

[NewEra]

5 hours ago, Boxcar said:

That's fair enough, my larger point was just that you can't make a snap judgment based on one game while throwing out all the others. This was not and is not a bad defense, even if they had a bad game when it mattered most and against a top 3 offense.

I hear ya.  I think the sentiment is that our defense needs to improve if we want to beat the Chiefs.....which we may have to do in order to win the super bowl.  In the first game, we took away the pass and they ran the ball at will (will a bum OL).  Second game, we were completely embarrassed and rarely had a defender within a few yards of their wide open receivers.  Maybe it was coaching?  Maybe it was our coaches not trusting out player.  Idk, but something has to change.  If it doesn’t, and we have the same result vs the chiefs (in two possible games), the owners should seek answers and someone/some people will lose their job.  Beating the chiefs = McBs job.....and so far through this offseason, we haven’t closed the gap at all imo.  While our defense wasn’t “bad” last year, it wasn’t “good enough” and has to improve.  Maybe a change in scheme/ game plan will be enough? Idk...... but a head should roll if the result is similar to last years games vs K.C. imo.  Idk who..... but someone

[The Firebaugh Kid]

7 hours ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Did you think the D played well against the Colts ? 

Good point

[Doc]

Here's a name for you: DT Alim McNeill, NC State.

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

I do like Shelvin. He's a monster and can clog the middle and eventually take over for Star.

[Solomon Grundy]

23 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Oliver has not lived up to his draft status.  Edmunds regressed badly. Even White had a few games where he struggled. Despite whatever win rate means the D-line was not affecting the opposing QB much and to compensate Frazier blitzed more than he ever has. H. Phillips did not look good coming off injury and was outplayed by journeyman Zimmerman. 

Star will help but they need more talent up front. There is not one front 7 Bills defender that wpuld start for Tampa. That doesn't mean all 7 ate bad. But they need at least one true difference maker and a NT to develop from this draft.  And they need to see solid improvement from Edmunds, Epenesa, and Oliver. 

I really believe that Geno Atkins would make Oliver a better player. I've seen Oliver be a millisecond late on a couple of sacks/QB hits last season. Having another disruptive force next to him may help compensate the loss of time. I believe Atkins would help the pass rush period. Hughes and AJ/Addison were able to rush from the edge only to have QBs step up in pocket and either escape or complete pass. Go back and watch the Arizona game and see how many times Murray escaped up the middle. The problem with the pass rush was no interior push. 

[Lv-Bills]

On 3/23/2021 at 1:27 PM, Doc said:

 

Ever heard the saying "you never know what you've got 'til it's gone"?

Indeed I have.  I put that saying right under, "seeing is believing".  I remember vividly what I saw.  And it was mediocre.  Not bad.  Not great.  We need help on defense.

[Doc]

42 minutes ago, Lv-Bills said:

Indeed I have.  I put that saying right under, "seeing is believing".  I remember vividly what I saw.  And it was mediocre.  Not bad.  Not great.  We need help on defense.

 

I'd like to see the only true 1T on the team be back and his effect on the defense.  Not see a bunch of 3-techs/DEs being played out of position there in his place.  But as I've been saying, they need to find a 1T to eventually replace Star if not hedge their bets against decline this year.  Meanwhile releasing Milano (which you seemed to be suggesting above) only creates a hole.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Doc

[Brennan Huff]

On 3/22/2021 at 9:59 PM, Boxcar said:

Yeah, judging a defense based on one game is not a very good idea.

Does KC need to vastly improve on offense after scoring 0 touchdowns in the SB?

 

No. They don't. I honestly can't believe the number of people who judge an entire defense based on one game, especially a game that directly followed them holding the Ravens to 3 points.

 

I mean, it was the most important game of the season...

[Arm of Harm]

3 hours ago, Brennan Huff said:

I mean, it was the most important game of the season...

 

There's that. And, there's the fact that two weeks earlier the defense played poorly against the Colts. The Colts game could have been a lot worse than it was, except that the Colts offense kept shooting itself in the foot. The fourth and goal being one example of that. The Colts offense did plenty of damage to the Bills defense, but you got the feeling that with better execution on their part, a higher level of play, the potential was there for them to have ripped the Bills defense to shreds. The Bills defense encountered that higher level of opponent play two weeks later.

 

The one postseason game in which the Bills defense played well was in very windy conditions, against a running quarterback. I give the defense credit for their effort against the Ravens, and especially the pick 6. But I'd like to see the defense play well against a good passing attack in the postseason.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Arm of Harm

[CEN-CAL17]

In the beginning the defense couldn’t do a thing to stop the run..... on top of that there was no real pass rush threat. The defense could produce pressure at times but no real threat teams were worried about.

 

I don’t see much change this year. I’m hoping the Bills are more stout against the run, but I see our pass defense being about the same. Team leader in sacks will be around 6-7 maybe.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 3/22/2021 at 9:56 PM, Thurman#1 said:

No reason to think so. They were an elite D in 2019, with Star and substantially the same best players.

 

Shaq Lawson and Jordan Phillips say "Hi"

 

 

[Boxcar]

16 hours ago, Brennan Huff said:

I mean, it was the most important game of the season...

Why does that matter? It doesn't, at all. You can say it would be nice if the defense improved in pass rush or whatever but saying there needs to be serious questions raised about the defense because of one game makes no sense.

 

It's like expecting the Bills to beat the Dolphins by 30 points from now on because of what happened in week 17. No, Dolphins D had a bad game at a very important spot. It doesn't erase what they were able to do the rest of the year.

[Lv-Bills]

17 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I'd like to see the only true 1T on the team be back and his effect on the defense.  Not see a bunch of 3-techs/DEs being played out of position there in his place.  But as I've been saying, they need to find a 1T to eventually replace Star if not hedge their bets against decline this year.  Meanwhile releasing Milano (which you seemed to be suggesting above) only creates a hole.

No, once again, I'm glad Milano is back.  Not overly joyed by any means, but he's a decent player.  He's not this legend that somehow he's garnered since becoming a free agent.  However, if he would have been back without those two offensive lineman, particularly Williams, I would have been perplexed.  Money would have been better spent on Williams.  But somehow Beane created money nobody thought we had and got them all.  Big win.  We still need physical play at LB.  We need a Klein type of player but with some type of flexibility, coordination and non-stiffness of the body.  Even Klein had a nice stretch last year, and turned things around nicely.  He even made a great impact for a few games.  But, he's still a weakness.  He's too stiff, rigid, and horrible in space, where most of the NFL is played.  He's awesome as a backup, or situational type player, but he's not an answer to cure this defense.  

 

Star wasn't that good two years ago.  Period.  He was brought up in almost everything said about the Bills as one player that was likely to get cut in 2020.  He's not the answer.  He's being made into something he wasn't, just because the defense was very mediocre last year and people are trying to act like he was the reason.  Phillips and Lawson were the disruptors on the Bills defense in 2019.  They missed them, and their play in the opposing teams backfield, way more than Star.  I can't believe people forgot how much Star was criticized.  Matter of fact, if I remember correctly, even the reports from Carolina weren't all that great when we picked him up.  Hopefully we draft pretty heavy on the defensive front 7 and get lucky and find a really good player or two.  Star is nice to have as a rotational guy, but this team needs some physicality and nastiness somewhere on it's front 7.  They lost a lot of  that physicality and energy when Lawson and Phillips left.

 

Oh well.  I get all sides to the argument.   Here's hoping Beane crushes the draft and finds some help on defense.  I think he will.  Together, they will all function better for sure.  

Edited March 29, 2021 by Lv-Bills

[Arm of Harm]

7 hours ago, Boxcar said:

Why does that matter? It doesn't, at all. You can say it would be nice if the defense improved in pass rush or whatever but saying there needs to be serious questions raised about the defense because of one game makes no sense.

 

It's like expecting the Bills to beat the Dolphins by 30 points from now on because of what happened in week 17. No, Dolphins D had a bad game at a very important spot. It doesn't erase what they were able to do the rest of the year.

 

It wasn't just one game.

 

In the first game against the Dolphins, the defense looked soft. Vulnerable to the pass. Easily exploited. It did a lot better job in the second game against the Dolphins. But, it's easy to turn in an "improved effort" against the pass when you're facing Tua instead of Fitzpatrick.

 

You could counter that argument by pointing out that early in the year when the defense was struggling you had guys like Milano out with injury, or guys like Edmunds playing with injured shoulders. Those guys came back from their injuries and the defense improved. Fine. I'll give you that.

 

But how many good quarterbacks did the defense play well against during the stretch where it looked good? Maybe one or two.

 

Then in the playoffs the defense faced the Colts. The defense looked outmatched and out-coached. The Colts did more to stop themselves than the Bills defense did to stop them. As Andy Reid watched the film of that Colts game, do you think he saw weaknesses for his Chiefs offense to exploit? How good a job do you think he did in exploiting the weaknesses he saw?

 

In the postseason the Bills defense faced two good passing quarterbacks, and turned in zero good performances against those two players. Those two bad performances are enough to counterbalance the small number of good performances the defense had against good passing quarterbacks during the regular season. This defense has shown itself to be vulnerable and weak against a good passing attack, it's a serious concern, and should be addressed during the draft if the right player is there.

[Boxcar]

2 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

 

It wasn't just one game.

 

In the first game against the Dolphins, the defense looked soft. Vulnerable to the pass. Easily exploited. It did a lot better job in the second game against the Dolphins. But, it's easy to turn in an "improved effort" against the pass when you're facing Tua instead of Fitzpatrick.

 

You could counter that argument by pointing out that early in the year when the defense was struggling you had guys like Milano out with injury, or guys like Edmunds playing with injured shoulders. Those guys came back from their injuries and the defense improved. Fine. I'll give you that.

 

But how many good quarterbacks did the defense play well against during the stretch where it looked good? Maybe one or two.

 

Then in the playoffs the defense faced the Colts. The defense looked outmatched and out-coached. The Colts did more to stop themselves than the Bills defense did to stop them. As Andy Reid watched the film of that Colts game, do you think he saw weaknesses for his Chiefs offense to exploit? How good a job do you think he did in exploiting the weaknesses he saw?

 

In the postseason the Bills defense faced two good passing quarterbacks, and turned in zero good performances against those two players. Those two bad performances are enough to counterbalance the small number of good performances the defense had against good passing quarterbacks during the regular season. This defense has shown itself to be vulnerable and weak against a good passing attack, it's a serious concern, and should be addressed during the draft if the right player is there.

Lol ok.

 

If you ignore all the games where the defense was good, they sucked. You win.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Every time I read the thread title I think it's going to be a critique on ECDA Flynn and his staff's conviction rate.

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

 

It wasn't just one game.

 

In the first game against the Dolphins, the defense looked soft. Vulnerable to the pass. Easily exploited. It did a lot better job in the second game against the Dolphins. But, it's easy to turn in an "improved effort" against the pass when you're facing Tua instead of Fitzpatrick.

 

You could counter that argument by pointing out that early in the year when the defense was struggling you had guys like Milano out with injury, or guys like Edmunds playing with injured shoulders. Those guys came back from their injuries and the defense improved. Fine. I'll give you that.

 

But how many good quarterbacks did the defense play well against during the stretch where it looked good? Maybe one or two.

 

Then in the playoffs the defense faced the Colts. The defense looked outmatched and out-coached. The Colts did more to stop themselves than the Bills defense did to stop them. As Andy Reid watched the film of that Colts game, do you think he saw weaknesses for his Chiefs offense to exploit? How good a job do you think he did in exploiting the weaknesses he saw?

 

In the postseason the Bills defense faced two good passing quarterbacks, and turned in zero good performances against those two players. Those two bad performances are enough to counterbalance the small number of good performances the defense had against good passing quarterbacks during the regular season. This defense has shown itself to be vulnerable and weak against a good passing attack, it's a serious concern, and should be addressed during the draft if the right player is there.

 

 

Yeah, it wasn't just one game. It was a lot of the beginning of the season. But the last ten games or so they were good, very good actually.

 

In the last ten games, if their per game stats on points and yards were pro-rated out to 16 games, they'd have been 8th in yards allowed per game and 5th in points allowed per game. That's not great, but it's very good.

 

How many good QBs did they play when the defense was playing well later in the season? Russ Wilson, Kyler Murray, Justin Herbert and Roethlisberger. Which is 4 out of 10, and 40% is probably about how many teams in the NFL have good quarterbacks, so these are fairly normal numbers.

 

The defense didn't look great against the Colts but the Colts have a terrific offense. Holding the Colts to 24 points and 340 yards was a good solid game, well below the Colts averages. And the D ended up winning the game that day, as the Colts got the ball at the 14 with 2:30 left on the clock, plenty when a field goal would have tied it, and the D systematically strangled them on that drive.

 

Yes, they were outmatched by the Chiefs offense. You do realize that pretty much the  whole rest of the league was too, right? You didn't have to be a bad defense to have the Chiefs perform well against you.

 

The defense was very good. Not great. They certainly need to work on being better - as does every person, every coach and every unit really - if they want to compete for a championship. But they were very good after those first six games where we had injury problems and problems with the new guys meshing and learning to deal with not having a space eater as well.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Thurman#1