Giving The D A Pass

[Simon Says]

9 hours ago, Doc said:

I agree that the Bills were counting on Star when they signed everyone only to see him opt-out on the cusp of training camp.  And while he should help the defense, he'll likely be gone after the year.  A replacement needs to be found sooner rather than later.

Star is under contract thru 2023. I think there is an out after 22,with a significant dead cap hit 

[Mr. WEO]

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No reason to think so. They were an elite D in 2019, with Star and substantially the same best players.

 

The OP is dead right on this ... without him the DL is athletic but small and could be pushed around. With him in there getting the doubles, they don't look so small anymore and everyone else gets a lot more single blocks. There was a ripple effect that we saw in 2019 that was not there last year.

 

Star's not a great player, but he's a guy who does his one thing very well.

My point is who knows if he can play at this point.  He's been sitting around since Jan 2020.

[Fan in Chicago]

8 hours ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

The D played well. Except against KC. I still blame that game on coaching.  It's like Dick Jauron took over for a game. 

Did you think the D played well against the Colts ? 

[NewEra]

9 hours ago, Boxcar said:

Yeah, judging a defense based on one game is not a very good idea.

Does KC need to vastly improve on offense after scoring 0 touchdowns in the SB?

 

No. They don't. I honestly can't believe the number of people who judge an entire defense based on one game, especially a game that directly followed them holding the Ravens to 3 points.

 

We weren’t missing an entire starting unit on D. 
 

We can’t compare the KC offensive situation to our D situation as they were missing their entire starting OL and players were playing out of position.  Not even close to a good comparison imo.   And if you look at what KC did.....they’re replacing their entire OL
 

that said, I don’t think we have to make massive changes.  Adding a sufficient 1Tech, an upgrade at pass rush and a better defensive scheme vs KC (and tight ends in general) could put us back in the top 10 or higher.

 

 

[TheBeaneBandit]

6 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

It’s a popular opinion, but every time I zeroed in on Star, he was fighting a single team stalemate. That’s pretty much what happens to him every down - he won’t push the pocket, but he doesn’t lose ground either. He’s just kinda there. There was a stretch of about 3 games or so where he started to actually show on the field, but aside from that he’s mostly invisible, unless he’s getting completely turned around as Adrian Peterson runs through his gap. Aside from offensive design, double teams are reserved for players who demand that sort of respect (ie Aaron Donald). Star isn’t one of those players unfortunately.

So true. Shaq Mason single blocks him all day very effectively which when NE commits to the run they always hammer us. I've said it before a young 1tech is just as important of a draft pick as edge rusher this draft. I like the Florida and LSU prospects best so far. Slaton could really be a monster imo.

[Boxcar]

27 minutes ago, NewEra said:

We weren’t missing an entire starting unit on D. 
 

We can’t compare the KC offensive situation to our D situation as they were missing their entire starting OL and players were playing out of position.  Not even close to a good comparison imo.   And if you look at what KC did.....they’re replacing their entire OL
 

that said, I don’t think we have to make massive changes.  Adding a sufficient 1Tech, an upgrade at pass rush and a better defensive scheme vs KC (and tight ends in general) could put us back in the top 10 or higher.

 

 

That's fair enough, my larger point was just that you can't make a snap judgment based on one game while throwing out all the others. This was not and is not a bad defense, even if they had a bad game when it mattered most and against a top 3 offense.

[oldmanfan]

I feel they will pick up a vet FA pass rusher once the dust settles.  And I see them drafting a 1 technique DT.  I also think Phillips should be better at the 1 with more time post ACL surgery.

[Boxcar]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

I feel they will pick up a vet FA pass rusher once the dust settles.  And I see them drafting a 1 technique DT.  I also think Phillips should be better at the 1 with more time post ACL surgery.

I'll be shocked if we don't take one in the  3rd round.

[YattaOkasan]

10 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

The Bills have 7 draft picks this year, assuming 5 make the roster, not sure they have five slots for them that won't involve releasing a player who by week 1 is considerably better than a rookie.  Can a spot on O-Line (maybe two) LB,CB, S,  Other positions they have pretty strong backups.

 

 

DE is sorely in need of bodies.  Hughes, Addison, Epenesa, ... Johnson (ugghhh).  I was thinking there would be two additions there at the start of FA (now probably just one through the draft). 

 

I  think on the O-line Beane pulls the ole draft someone and trade someone else (not necessarily the worst player). 

 

Safety and Big Nickel are both in need of capable bodies as well. 

 

Thats 4 pretty quick which gets us to our 5th round if we dont trade down.  That 5th player is likely not on the team for their stated position and are going to be a teams player only.  So I guess I sorta agree with your point cause I think Beane will bring a surplus of O Line players to camp again and then move one for picks near the end of camp.

Edited March 23, 2021 by YattaOkasan

[BillsFan1988]

10 hours ago, wagne591 said:

I was thinking about this a lot lately and I have come to this conclusion. When Beane signed Butler and Jefferson for the D-line last year he did that counting on Lotulelei (6'2" 315) to play all year. So I give him a pass on how poor our pass rush was last year. Star being out not only effected our pass rush IMO but it also didn't help in the development of Oliver either. I think with Star coming back this season it will free up some more guys to rush the passer because he commands a double team most of the time and last year noone on our line commanded one. So I think you will see some improvements next year with the guys we have....also not saying we wont draft an edge rusher or another D tackle to help either. In fact now would be a good time to draft another one to mirror Star as he gets older and I don't think he will be around much longer.  Here are some of my picks...

 

Marvin Wilson FSU 6'3 319

Tyler Shelvin LSU 6'3" 346

Bobby Brown III TAM 6'3" 325

Naquan Jones MSU 6'4" 338

 

All guys that played the 1-tech in college and all can play stuff the run. All should be available in the second round or later (might have to move up to get a couple in the second). I just think we need to start looking for backups to learn from the guys getting older. It is ok for guys to sit a year or get the left over snaps. Thoughts...

Star is a nice run stuffing 1tech but he has nothing to do with the pass rush . He plays 35-40% of the plays and is hardly ever on the field on passing downs. This is what overblown in my opinion.  In 2019 the Bills had 44sks in 2020 39 not much of a difference . If anything the loss of JP hurt us more when it came to the pass rush.

[HOUSE]

Star is finally receiving the respect he deserves.

 

 

[mjt328]

The defense was expected to be elite in 2020.  They ended up average.

 

I agree that some of this was due to Star Lotulelei opting out, leaving us without a true 1-Tech DT.  Some was certainly due to injuries at the linebacker position.  Some was due to the new faces on the D-Line, learning how to play together.

 

Yes, we played better overall in the second half of the season.  But the Kansas City Chiefs clearly exposed us in the championship game.

Our pass rush is not good enough.  They couldn't sniff Patrick Mahomes, against a group of mostly backup offensive linemen.

Our secondary is too reliant on zone coverage, and we need guys who can do better in 1-on-1 matchups.  

 

The Bills need upgrades, or Kansas City is going to crush us again this season.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

28 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

DE is sorely in need of bodies.  Hughes, Addison, Epenesa, ... Johnson (ugghhh).  I was thinking there would be two additions there at the start of FA (now probably just one through the draft). 

 

I  think on the O-line Beane pulls the ole draft someone and trade someone else (not necessarily the worst player). 

 

Safety and Big Nickel are both in need of capable bodies as well. 

 

Thats 4 pretty quick which gets us to our 5th round if we dont trade down.  That 5th player is likely not on the team for their stated position and are going to be a teams player only.  So I guess I sorta agree with your point cause I think Beane will bring a surplus of O Line players to camp again and then move one for picks near the end of camp.

 

The 2021 Bills roster is basically the same as the 2020 team, they haven't lost much at all in FA, but haven't added much either, maybe a small upgrade in Sanders.  They just didn't have the $$ available to make the changes and improvements that many fans were hoping to see. They do have a year more experience under their belt and last years rookies now  are a year older so that helps some too. 

 

The Bills are ready to  complete  for a Super Bowl now.  What worries me though is replacing vets with rookies may actually make the team weaker in the short term for the 2021 season.  O-line doesn't worry me much as the starters tend to play the entire game barring injury.  I wouldn't worry about a rookie WR either if they take one as their starters are strong to begin with.  They don't have a true big nickel so drafting a rookie would be an improvement there.

 

But defensive line may be the weakest area of the roster and I don't see that adding a rookie drafting 30th or in lower rounds will help.  You stated Johnson (ugghhh) I'd take Johnson over a rookie drafted at 30th in 2021.  Maybe by the 2nd or 3rd year the rookie would be the better choice, but not so sure it helps for this coming season.

 

Will see Beane may still pick up a mid level FA edge rusher to help.

[Boxcar]

26 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

The 2021 Bills roster is basically the same as the 2020 team, they haven't lost much at all in FA, but haven't added much either, maybe a small upgrade in Sanders.  They just didn't have the $$ available to make the changes and improvements that many fans were hoping to see. They do have a year more experience under their belt and last years rookies now  are a year older so that helps some too. 

 

The Bills are ready to  complete  for a Super Bowl now.  What worries me though is replacing vets with rookies may actually make the team weaker in the short term for the 2021 season.  O-line doesn't worry me much as the starters tend to play the entire game barring injury.  I wouldn't worry about a rookie WR either if they take one as their starters are strong to begin with.  They don't have a true big nickel so drafting a rookie would be an improvement there.

 

But defensive line may be the weakest area of the roster and I don't see that adding a rookie drafting 30th or in lower rounds will help.  You stated Johnson (ugghhh) I'd take Johnson over a rookie drafted at 30th in 2021.  Maybe by the 2nd or 3rd year the rookie would be the better choice, but not so sure it helps for this coming season.

 

Will see Beane may still pick up a mid level FA edge rusher to help.

I have pretty high hopes for Epenesa to be taking most of the snaps on the edge. My issue is that I think we need someone to make Jerry Hughes a secondary player to keep him fresh due to age. I love Jerry, so I don't want him to go, but he can't be taking 80-90% of snaps any more.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

8 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

It’s a popular opinion, but every time I zeroed in on Star, he was fighting a single team stalemate. That’s pretty much what happens to him every down - he won’t push the pocket, but he doesn’t lose ground either. He’s just kinda there. There was a stretch of about 3 games or so where he started to actually show on the field, but aside from that he’s mostly invisible, unless he’s getting completely turned around as Adrian Peterson runs through his gap. Aside from offensive design, double teams are reserved for players who demand that sort of respect (ie Aaron Donald). Star isn’t one of those players unfortunately.

 

That stalemate can be the difference between 4 and 10+ yards on a run though.  Too often the mis-cast 1T guys this year were getting moved out of their gaps, pulling linemen were able to make plays at the 2nd level.  Him plugging that gap helps that interaction occur closer to the LOS, or forces the running back to adjust where they're going.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, Boxcar said:

I have pretty high hopes for Epenesa to be taking most of the snaps on the edge. My issue is that I think we need someone to make Jerry Hughes a secondary player to keep him fresh due to age. I love Jerry, so I don't want him to go, but he can't be taking 80-90% of snaps any more.

 

By my calculation Hughes only took 60.5% of the snaps, the most of all the D-line players.  Addison was slightly lower at 58% and Oliver at 56%.  Hughes had a little higher number in 2019, 65%.  But agree overall, you don't want Hughes playing too much.  Do agree too that Epenesa will see a much higher snap count and think he'll look much better too.

 

Seems the Bills overall thinking on the D-Line is we're not going to have a superstar, but will roll 8 or 9 deep of good dependable players that will wear your line down due to our players being fresher.  That worked pretty well in 2019, not so well in 2020, though much of that issue may have been due to missing Star in the middle.

[BarleyNY]

I’m disappointed in all of you.  Three pages into a thread called “Giving the D a pass” and no one has replied “Sounds like my wife!”  SMH 

[Sharky7337]

Thread title = That's what she said

[Lv-Bills]

Two things I'm kind of perplexed at that have happened over the course of the offseason. 

 

#1  Somewhere last year, and over the last month or so, Bills fans turned Matt Milano into Derrick Brooks.  I don't get it.  I'm glad we got Milano back.  He adds to our team and the unit is definitely better with him in the lineup.  But man, his legend grew 1000 fold over the season.  He's a nice linebacker, but he's nowhere near what everyone is making him out to be.  I was much happier we got him back AFTER we saw the Williams and Feliciano signings.  I think those two O lineman were much more important to the Bills than Milano.   Having all three is wonderful though.  But man, the kids legend grew exponentially with fans.  Saw many "insider" articles calling him one of the guys in the league that will be "overpaid" this free agency not matching what he's actually worth (much less).  However, insider articles also aren't worth much more than message board fodder these days, as there are many informed fans that have just as good of opinions as many insiders. 

 

#2  The same thing is happening with Star.  This was a guy that almost everyone thought was underachieving on the field two years ago.  There were countless articles that actually used him as an example as a player that would opt out of the 2020 Covid season because he/they thought were almost certain to get cut.  So, here's another guy's legend that has somehow blown up and turned in to this mythical beast that held together the Bills run defense.  Not really true.  Star was OK 2 years ago.  Again, he was criticized often, and many thought he was way overpaid.   Now, all of a sudden, his absence was why the Bills struggled.  Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson had more to do with our line than anything Star did.  I know these guys have play roles, and Star's role was different than Lawson and Phillips, but the Bills defensive line had a few guys that wreaked havoc and caused disruption in the backfield.  Mainly from Phillips and Lawson.  That helped set up the defense to create long down and distance at key times that benefitted how they were able to force passing situations, thus teams not running on us as much.   We let both go.  I wish we could have kept Phillips somehow.  Not saying we don't need Star, but man, I'm not sure how his legend has gotten so big all of a sudden.  

 

Glad we have all of these guys back.  We are better with them, than without them.  However, we have a lot to do on defense.  

[Kwai San]

14 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

The other thing that caused issues last year, going into training camp I was kind of happy that the Bills had very little turnover of their starting lineup from the year prior.  For a season without mini camps and no pre-season, figured that would help them more than other teams. With a 13-3 record, maybe it did?  The only new starters they had were Diggs and Klein.  At the beginning of camp they still had the same O-line, (Spain was projected starter) DeMarco was back at fullback, same starters on the D-line and secondary.

 

While overall 20 or 22 starters back was pretty good, but by the time week 1 rolled around, while all 4 starters were back on the D-line, it did have 3 new subs, plus Phillips missed most of 2019 and a rookie.  Add to that as you stated Star opting out caused even more churn.  Don't think they ever really found a true replacement for him and they ended up for the 1st half of the season playing musical chairs with the 1 technique.  Eventually they settled on Butler, but he was far from perfect.  Throw in that Murphy became a non-factor by the second half and you had a mess there.  So do agree both with having Star back and pretty much no new faces will help.  Will need an improvement from Addison though.  Wonder if they will tweak the defense some to use Klein as 3rd LB more in passing down and let him just blitz from all over, but that means no 5th CB on the field or only 3 down lineman?

 

Yeah agree with drafting Star's eventual replacement, but does worry me some to find a roster spot for him this year likely mean cutting either Phillips or Zimmer.  While neither is a game changer, they still may be better than a 2nd/3rd round rookie.  Maybe the answer is draft the guy, then someone step on his toe in the pre-season so they can hide him on IR all year or at least till late in the season if someone gets hurt.

 

 

 

Nefarious but well thought out.....sure you aren't BB formerly of Roch???