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Chris Simms Has Zach Wilson Ahead Of Trevor Lawrence?


H2o

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3 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

yeah, Simms is a straight shooter; doesn't really seem to be one of those to say things to just stir up views and clicks.   I've never seen Wilson play so there's that, so there will be a bias towards Lawrence bc of his exposure, but Josh had no exposure and he turned out better than all in his draft class.  

Think about it...how often does the first QB taken actually turn out to be the best in his draft class?  It’s rare.

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2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Looked up his pre draft rankings from 2018 on.  Not too shabby so far.  He went along with the consensus number one in 2019 and 2020 so I can't say he's putting Wilson in front of Lawrence just for attention.  Still continuing hope that the Jets will screw the pooch and keep Darnold.

 

2018

Lamar Jackson

Josh Allen

Baker Mayfield

Sam Darnold

Josh Rosen

 

2019

Kyler Murray

Drew Lock

Dwayne Haskins

Ryan Finley

Jarrett Stidham

Daniel Jones

Clayton Thorson

Will Grier

 

2020

Joe Burrow

Justin Herbert

Jordan Love

Tua Tagovailoa

 

 

 

Chris Simms actually ended up ranking the 2018 class as follows:

  1. Josh Allen
  2. Josh Rosen
  3. Baker Mayfield
  4. Lamar Jackson
  5. Sam Darnold

The clip of him ranking Lamar and Allen at the top was an older take before he changed it all at the last minute.

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Someone brought up earlier about retro grading teams drafts.  I love that series on NFLR, as it’s usually a Blitz (the show) topic where they grade the draft from four years ago.  They rate on an A,B,C,D etc. draft.  It’s a very interesting series, and the primary guy was Mark Dominic, the old GM from Tampa.  He’s a very interesting guy with Bruce, the main host.

 

Needless to say our drafts prior to McBeane on a four years later have not been the best, but they were fair.  They consider, who’s still on the NFL whether starting or a role player, regardless if they are still on the team that drafted the player.  It’s part of their off season series each show does to basically fill down time.  You may not always agree with the hosts, but they make several good points trying to quantify a draft.  This year should be fun as it’s the 2017 draft, but I know I think it’s Late Hits does something like this, but would be the 2018 draft.

 

Its interesting to see, because for example we don’t still have Wyatt Teller, but he starts for the Browns and was a 2018 draft guy.  To me that’s fair given they are a national show, not biased by a local market like WGR.

 

Anyway, you Sirius guys have a listen when they do it.  If memory serves, it’s usually done after the draft.  By then FA is over, the draft is over, coaching hires are over, and even the UDFA market is over.  They can then focus on this kind of topic.

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17 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Lawrence is the best QB in the class.

 

 

Come on, Bill.

 

That's an opinion, too. A less controversial one than his, certainly. Could easily turn out to be absolutely correct down the line. But it's not a fact.

 

We'll find out who the best QB in the class is a few years down the line. Right now we can't even agree on who was the best college QB.

 

I have great respect for your opinions, but that is what this is.

 

 

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Just now, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Come on, Bill.

 

That's an opinion, too. A less controversial one than his, certainly. Could easily turn out to be absolutely correct down the line. But it's not a fact.

 

We'll find out who the best QB in the class is a few years down the line. Right now we can't even agree on who was the best college QB.

 

 

 

Of course it's an opinion. What suggested it wasn't?

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9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Of course it's an opinion. What suggested it wasn't?

 

 

Your words.

 

"_________ is ___________," is not grammatically how you present an opinion. It's how you present a fact or something you believe is a fact.

 

 

 

 

 

"I've got _______________ as _____________."

 

or

 

"_______________ looks like ________________."

 

or

 

"I believe __________ is _____________."

 

or

 

"Doesn't seem that way to me."

 

 

 

 

Those, and a thousand alternatives and a million variations are ways to present an opinion. You know all this. You find Simms using this kind of language constantly.

 

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18 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Your words.

 

"_________ is ___________," is not grammatically how you present an opinion. It's how you present a fact or something you believe is a fact.

 

 

 

 

 

"I've got _______________ as _____________."

 

or

 

"_______________ looks like ________________."

 

or

 

"I believe __________ is _____________."

 

or

 

"Doesn't seem that way to me."

 

 

 

 

Those, and a thousand alternatives and a million variations are ways to present an opinion. You know all this. You find Simms using this kind of language constantly.

 

 

I disagree actually. I think when I post something on a message board it should be pretty implicit that it is my opinion. I don't think I should have to say "I believe" before everything I say to distinguish it as opinion. It is self evidently opinion to say player X is better than player Y etc. 

 

Indeed, on the contrary... on a message board such as this I think you should make it explicit when what you are doing is giving factual information. Like when I say "I know, for a fact, that Doug Whaley wanted to hire Hue Jackson in 2015 and was overruled." I don't do that very often. I occasionally will clarify things relating to the CBA or the salary cap where people aren't aware of specific regulations etc, but everything else I post is generally opinion. Whether it says "in my opinion" or "I believe" in that sentence or not. 

Edited by GunnerBill
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57 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

He's about to be on the Dan Patrick show to explain himself.

Simms explained himself fully on his podcast.  He convinced me, even though I haven’t seen much of Wilson.  By the way, he also loves Mack Jones, and ranks him just a shade behind Lawrence and Wilson.

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What's most important is that Wilson is a MUCH BETTER prospect than Sam Darnold was.

 

That's good for the Jets and not so good for the Bills as they might have a divisional rivalry a few years down the road with Wilson leading the Jets.

 

But here is to hoping that Wilson is a Jets bust too. 😁

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1 hour ago, njbuff said:

What's most important is that Wilson is a MUCH BETTER prospect than Sam Darnold was.

 

That's good for the Jets and not so good for the Bills as they might have a divisional rivalry a few years down the road with Wilson leading the Jets.

 

But here is to hoping that Wilson is a Jets bust too. 😁

Yes, but are the Jets going to take a QB is the question. They could instead think that Darnold was just a product of Gase the last two years and look to add weapons in the draft. It's going to be interesting to see how the first 3 picks play out. You know Jax is taking a QB, but both NY and Miami could justify taking one. I think Miami is less likely because they just drafted Tua, but you never know. Then you have Atlanta who obviously are looking towards their future, Carolina in need, San Fran I'm sure wants to upgrade, NE is in limbo, then you have Chicago, and Washington. It will be fun to watch the mad scramble and see how it all plays out. 

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36 minutes ago, H2o said:

Yes, but are the Jets going to take a QB is the question. They could instead think that Darnold was just a product of Gase the last two years and look to add weapons in the draft. It's going to be interesting to see how the first 3 picks play out. You know Jax is taking a QB, but both NY and Miami could justify taking one. I think Miami is less likely because they just drafted Tua, but you never know. Then you have Atlanta who obviously are looking towards their future, Carolina in need, San Fran I'm sure wants to upgrade, NE is in limbo, then you have Chicago, and Washington. It will be fun to watch the mad scramble and see how it all plays out. 

 

Jets are taking a QB. Book it.

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In 100 years of college football Trevor Lawrence had the best true freshman campaign by a quarterback ever

 

It's kind of hard to wow anybody after that

 

Then For the next few years everybody is looking for every single fault to knock him down a peg.. he would have been the first overall pick after his freshman year

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

In 100 years of college football Trevor Lawrence had the best true freshman campaign by a quarterback ever

 

It's kind of hard to wow anybody after that

 

Then For the next few years everybody is looking for every single fault to knock him down a peg.. he would have been the first overall pick after his freshman year

 

 

 

Yeah and that was with some need for growth.  He's gotten better and in my mind there's zero question about his position as a prospect.

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Just now, LeviF91 said:

 

Yeah and that was with some need for growth.  He's gotten better and in my mind there's zero question about his position as a prospect.

Yea barring injury or something catastrophic he's as clean as they come

 

His upper body mechanics, release, arm strength, football IQ, athleticism, are all off the charts

 

I was lucky enough to see him in high school and he was better than some NFL quarterbacks, not kidding

 

Like he was making throws that some guys in the NFL can't make today

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12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree actually. I think when I post something on a message board it should be pretty implicit that it is my opinion. I don't think I should have to say "I believe" before everything I say to distinguish it as opinion. It is self evidently opinion to say player X is better than player Y etc. 

 

Indeed, on the contrary... on a message board such as this I think you should make it explicit when what you are doing is giving factual information. Like when I say "I know, for a fact, that Doug Whaley wanted to hire Hue Jackson in 2015 and was overruled." I don't do that very often. I occasionally will clarify things relating to the CBA or the salary cap where people aren't aware of specific regulations etc, but everything else I post is generally opinion. Whether it says "in my opinion" or "I believe" in that sentence or not. 

 

 

Fair enough that you disagree. You're claiming the freedom to communicate unclearly, and nobody can take that away from you. To communicate clearly and well should - I personally believe - be the goal in any public communication. Message board or not. If someone wants to be understood correctly, he should speak clearly. But some people have other priorities, and that's their prerogative.

 

And no, you don't have to say "I believe" or "in my opinion" before every opinion, to be clear. I pointed out four easy alternatives and there are surely hundreds if not tens of thousands of ways to point out you're expressing an opinion. But if you don't mind being misunderstood easily and often, who am I to challenge your priorities? Hell, I'm just a guy on the internet.

 

On the other hand, I have the right to say something along the lines of "What you have there is an opinion, it is certainly not a fact," if you state an opinion as a fact. I'm not a mind-reader, just a text-reader. Even if your intention is to give your opinion, if I can't understand that from the writing, I'm gonna react to what you wrote, just as I do for everyone. I just do my best to understand the words on the page or the screen, myself. I think that's what most people do, they assume what someone wrote is what they meant. I don't think of myself as bright enough to elicit unexpressed meaning from text.

 

Worth pointing out, though, that Simms spends a great deal of time and care pointing out that what he says is opinion.

 

01:30  "Zach Wilson is clearly the number one quarterback in the draft for me."

 

04:00  "To me, he is the clear-cut number one quarterback in this draft. I love Trevor Lawrence, there's a lot I like. But I think Zack Wilson and him, there's a separation there, for my money and what I see and what I've evaluated."

 

He even prefaces the whole thing with a similar statement, "What I'm evaluating here is what I see on the field. Yeah, I hear rumors and all that kind of stuff, OK? But all I can do is see what I see on the field and use my knowledge that way, and that's really what my rankings are all about."

 

That was only the first four minutes. He goes on like that constantly, in pretty much every podcast. Why? I think it's because through long experience he's found out that, people misunderstand him. They hear it as, "I know this, 'cause I'm just that smart." He's been faced with that misunderstanding often enough that he knows if he wants to be correctly understood he's got to say this.

 

 

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