Carson Wentz to the Colts

[JGMcD2]

20 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

So Reich had better hope that he can turn Wentz around or he's probably looking for a new job.

Reich would be looking for a new job... or Wentz? 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

If the Bills had a choice, and a competent running game, they’d definitely prefer Allen to be more of a pocket passer. 

 

I'm not saying you have to run. That was not my point at all. You have to have some special. Allen has that with the size and the arm as well as the legs. My point was we had a generation where a cerebral Quarterback who could didn't have a special arm or athleticism could succeed in the NFL as long as he understood how to manipulate the pocket - Eli, Matt Ryan... hell even Brady and Brees although I think a pocket passer on that level probably still succeeds... nowadays teams are looking at those sorts of guys (and Goff fits that category) and saying "nah, no special, move on."

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Honestly, what QB this year has Carson Wentz’ ceiling in the third round?

 

None. But I think Stafford did, hell I think Darnold does. Wentz may have had one of the higher upsides of their available options. But his floor is lower than Jacoby Brissett at this stage. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Ha maybe, but is the only way I know how to describe what happened to Wentz's release. It was like he had to ready his arm (I want to use a word beginning with c that is banned because it is rude in other contexts) and pump twice before the hand will let go of the ball. There is definitely something going on there IMO.

 

I have not watched every Eagles game, much less the all-22 of 'em.

 

I have watched Brett Kollman's "What Wentz Wrong?" piece about Wentz and I don't see that.  I do see that his mechanics are overall crap at times.  If you have a chance and might find an example in the aforementioned and point it out to me, would be obliged.

 

I can't disagree that Reich has his work cut out for him, but he's a smart football guy and I'm sure he watched every second of Carson Wentz tape and could possibly even have asked for more (practice tape from the Eagles?) before agreeing to the trade.  So I gotta believe he sees something he thinks he can fix.

 

One question I don't know the answer to:  I know that the coaches get to have an exit meeting with all their players where they review their season and give them a to-do list to work on and an off-season program, but then they are not supposed to have football contact with the players until OTAs.  (They can call and chat about families and dogs and stuff).  When a player is traded, does the receiving team get to bring the player in for something like that in addition to physicals?

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I think the price they have paid makes it a medium-high risk and high reward. Like I say the floor is a guy who isn't their starter by the end of 2021. 

 

Their saving grace is they can pull Wentz as the starter if halfway through the season it's clear he is not going to help them win a championship. In that case they would have lost a 2nd and a 3rd, which certainly is a lot to get nothing back, but at least they would keep their 1st. The mistake compounds if Wentz doesn't play much better than he has and they play him for the entire season anyways.

[Don Otreply]

11 hours ago, 97bills said:

Who knows if wentz gets better but I bet my bottom dollar he is thrilled to get out of Philadelphia what a train wreck. Now a oline and a running back and a coach that knows him 

Yup, Wentz is one of the happiest QBs in the league right now,  all the pieces are in place for him to do well, time will tell if he can actually do it, 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

I have watched Brett Kollman's "What Wentz Wrong?" piece about Wentz and I don't see that.  I do see that his mechanics are overall crap at times.  If you have a chance and might find an example in the aforementioned and point it out to me, would be obliged.

 

It is there on the very first throw of that video. When you see that pick to Moreau from front on there is like a quarter twitch before the actual wind and release. It is not really pronounced but it is there and there are other plays over the season where it seemed more pronounced on plays where he doesn't actually throw it because he kind of has the twitch and then stops and then invites the pressure onto him. Kollman focuses more on the feet in that video because he pretty much says at the start "well his throwing mechanics have always been not great because of the elongated wind up" which is true.... but even they were worse than in previous years in 2020 with this strange twitch thing. The feet are awful too and again have noticeably regressed. I think mechanically you have to strip him down and start again. If anyone can pull it off Frank Reich can. But personally? I think it is no more than a shot in the dark at this point. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Jobot]

On 2/18/2021 at 11:51 AM, MrSarcasm said:

Good trade for the Colts. My opinion is that Wentz is a good QB and his collapse was due to a bad online and poor play calling. The Colts are a perfect fit for him.

 

Disagree, how would you explain his backup Hurtz coming in and looking like an actual professional quarterback.

 

Wentz is done, no respect from his teammates, and clearly doesn't have an NFL caliber work ethic. 

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Their saving grace is they can pull Wentz as the starter if halfway through the season it's clear he is not going to help them win a championship. In that case they would have lost a 2nd and a 3rd, which certainly is a lot to get nothing back, but at least they would keep their 1st. The mistake compounds if Wentz doesn't play much better than he has and they play him for the entire season anyways.

 

That is true, but then you gave up a higher 2nd and 3rd and a ton of Cap resources for a failure.

 

The worst case is if Wentz is not very good, but the talent on the Colts (especially on D) is good enough to propel them to the Playoffs and you end up trading a 3rd and a late 1st for a JAG.  Especially since the Jags and Texans look to potentially be bad and the Titans/Colts could end up winning that division despite QB play - based solely on Defense and RBs.

 

It is worth a risk, but it is a big risk and a lot to give up for a guy that has struggled significantly over the last couple of years.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

That is true, but then you gave up a higher 2nd and 3rd and a ton of Cap resources for a failure.

 

The worst case is if Wentz is not very good, but the talent on the Colts (especially on D) is good enough to propel them to the Playoffs and you end up trading a 3rd and a late 1st for a JAG.  Especially since the Jags and Texans look to potentially be bad and the Titans/Colts could end up winning that division despite QB play - based solely on Defense and RBs.

 

It is worth a risk, but it is a big risk and a lot to give up for a guy that has struggled significantly over the last couple of years.

 

It also tells me the initial returns on Jacob Eason inside the building are not good. Not that I ever though he was a long term starting option but the style of offense they ran here in the wildcard and late in the season where they pound the rock with JTay and then throw off play action into the zone behind the backers? I think if Eason was ever going to fit in the NFL that is it - maybe as a bridge type of guy. 

[billsfan89]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Their saving grace is they can pull Wentz as the starter if halfway through the season it's clear he is not going to help them win a championship. In that case they would have lost a 2nd and a 3rd, which certainly is a lot to get nothing back, but at least they would keep their 1st. The mistake compounds if Wentz doesn't play much better than he has and they play him for the entire season anyways.

 

I also didn't realize that Wentz has zero dead cap after 2021. I figured since he was on a huge extension he had some dead money in 2022. But no, the Eagles structured that contract in such a fantastic way. They basically had two years of huge dead money and then nothing. 

[BuffaloRebound]

2 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I also didn't realize that Wentz has zero dead cap after 2021. I figured since he was on a huge extension he had some dead money in 2022. But no, the Eagles structured that contract in such a fantastic way. They basically had two years of huge dead money and then nothing. 

$15m of Wentz’s 2022 salary becomes guaranteed this March so they’d have $15m dead cap in 2022.  

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I also didn't realize that Wentz has zero dead cap after 2021. I figured since he was on a huge extension he had some dead money in 2022. But no, the Eagles structured that contract in such a fantastic way. They basically had two years of huge dead money and then nothing. 

 

He does have some dead cap after 2021 but it was signing bonus with stays with Philly cos it has already been paid. There are no salary guarantees after 2021 so it isn't a terrible contract for Indy to take on. 

Just now, BuffaloRebound said:

$15m of Wentz’s 2022 salary becomes guaranteed this March so they’d have $15m dead cap in 2022.  

 

This also. Good point. 

[MrSarcasm]

1 hour ago, Jobot said:

 

Disagree, how would you explain his backup Hurtz coming in and looking like an actual professional quarterback.

 

Wentz is done, no respect from his teammates, and clearly doesn't have an NFL caliber work ethic. 

Hurtz for the year had 6TDs and 4 picks with a 52% completion percentage.

 

Wentz had 16 TDs and 14 picks with a 62% completion percentage.

 

Safe to say neither looked good, which might have something to do with the above mentioned.

 

[HOUSE]

There he wentz

[ProcessAccepted]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:49 PM, GETTOTHE50 said:

Darnold or Wentz is among one of the worst debates on here. Both have been ruined by their organizations and both won’t ever fulfill whatever predraft expectations they had.  Besides, how many failed QBs have actually turned it around with an another organization after being traded? I can’t think of any. 
 

 

So far Tannehill is enjoying success plus I'm not sure Darmold is ruined yet. If anyone can get something out of Wentz its Frank Reich. I would not be in too big a rush to write either guy off yet.

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I also didn't realize that Wentz has zero dead cap after 2021. I figured since he was on a huge extension he had some dead money in 2022. But no, the Eagles structured that contract in such a fantastic way. They basically had two years of huge dead money and then nothing. 

 

It was not that Philadelphia structured the contract well - because they did not in fact structure it well at all.  It is the fact that the huge signing/roster bonus stays with Philadelphia and accelerates.  It does not follow Wentz to Indy.  Philadelphia would have been way better off having yearly guaranteed roster bonuses that went with the contract instead of the upfront signing bonus.

 

34 million in guaranteed money stayed in Philadelphia and is the only thing that makes this palatable for Indy.

 

This kills Philadelphia, but for just 1 year as all of that money hits in 2021.

 

Indy is protected because after paying the guaranteed 25 million in salary for 2021 - they have the option of cutting him for limited investment and only losing the draft picks.

[prissythecat]

1 hour ago, MrSarcasm said:

Hurtz for the year had 6TDs and 4 picks with a 52% completion percentage.

 

Wentz had 16 TDs and 14 picks with a 62% completion percentage.

 

Safe to say neither looked good, which might have something to do with the above mentioned.

 

 

The Eagles are likely going to be bringing in another QB option.       Hurts isn't much of a threat passing

[BuffaloBills1998]

This could be either a move that makes Reich a hero or it could ultimately cost him his job in Indy. For right now I’m leaning toward the latter. But if that happens I would think we would welcome him back with open arms lol

Just now, BuffaloBills1998 said:

This could be a move that makes Reich a hero or it could ultimately cost him his job in Indy. For right now I’m leaning toward the latter. But if that happens I would think we would welcome him back with open arms lol

 

[GunnerBill]

56 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

It was not that Philadelphia structured the contract well - because they did not in fact structure it well at all.  It is the fact that the huge signing/roster bonus stays with Philadelphia and accelerates.  It does not follow Wentz to Indy.  Philadelphia would have been way better off having yearly guaranteed roster bonuses that went with the contract instead of the upfront signing bonus.

 

34 million in guaranteed money stayed in Philadelphia and is the only thing that makes this palatable for Indy.

 

This kills Philadelphia, but for just 1 year as all of that money hits in 2021.

 

Indy is protected because after paying the guaranteed 25 million in salary for 2021 - they have the option of cutting him for limited investment and only losing the draft picks.

 

I would have to check but I don't think you can pre-pay a roster bonus for years down the line. So you are asking Wentz in that scenario to take less new money up front. The big signing bonus is invariably cos the players want money up front.  

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I would have to check but I don't think you can pre-pay a roster bonus for years down the line. So you are asking Wentz in that scenario to take less new money up front. The big signing bonus is invariably cos the players want money up front.  

 

Totally agree - I am just saying that for that to have been a good deal for Philadelphia- a contract similar to Mahomes with almost all the money tied up in roster bonuses would have been better.

 

For Wentz (and most players) the signing bonus is key as they get that money immediately.  It is also the money that becomes dead in Philadelphia, but makes the Indy side look better.