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The Great Tremaine Edmunds Debate


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On 4/16/2021 at 6:23 PM, Don Otreply said:

Well, being that most of the time fans are wrong, I’ll roll with the coaches on this debate.

 

Well...there have been a few that the fans spotted early that OBD  took their sweet time moving on from.

 

QB

Nathan INT-Machine Peterman

 

WRs

Zay "stone-hands" Jones of the 0 separation.

 

And

Kelvin "Eff-It" Benjamin - lazy routes,  poor effort, and alligator-armed catching radius.

 

 

Now Edmunds is not like these team washouts, but he has been inconsistent and you would like to see iterative improvement year over year. Hence the debate about locking him up long-term or could the Bills find a better fit at the position? Personally, I always want to see the players the team has invested in succeed, but there are times that it is best for the team or player to move on.

 

We will see how this plays out and I sincerely hope Edmunds lights it up and makes me eat plenty of crow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by WideNine
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Edmunds is a damned good player. I will leave it at that. 

I want my LB to be more of a dawg, more nasty.  His dad was a great NFL Tight End. Tremaine is a physical freak. Things probably always came easy for him. He’s gotta start playing like there’s no tomo

Edmunds is such a frustrating player...I feel that if he were a mid round pick, we would be looking to upgrade...but because he was a first round pick we are stuck with him, and will likely pay him to

The problem with looking at his stats, a majority of his tackles were 7 to 8 yards downfield. This puts the d in a difficult position. If he could ever learn how to tackle his man near the los, the d could be so much better. 

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16 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Well, being that most of the time fans are wrong, I’ll roll with the coaches on this debate.


Last season + last postseason the Bills’ defense only had one good performance against a good passing QB: Justin Herbert. The coaches or front office are wrong about something on defense. If they were right about everything they’d be producing much better results. Is an overestimation of the value of Edmunds one of the things they’re wrong about? Maybe. 

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1 hour ago, fasteddie said:

The problem with looking at his stats, a majority of his tackles were 7 to 8 yards downfield. This puts the d in a difficult position. If he could ever learn how to tackle his man near the los, the d could be so much better. 

 

I am not saying you are wrong BUT this is the EXACT narrative fans used to help railroad London Fletcher out of town subsequent to another strong 7 years of NFL play including 4 all pro years

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1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

I am not saying you are wrong BUT this is the EXACT narrative fans used to help railroad London Fletcher out of town subsequent to another strong 7 years of NFL play including 4 all pro years

RoyBatty, I’ve watched London Fletcher play...I’ve seen the instincts, I’ve seen the passion and hunger in his play...RoyBatty, Trumaine Edmunds is no London Fletcher...😉

Edited by JaCrispy
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1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

I am not saying you are wrong BUT this is the EXACT narrative fans used to help railroad London Fletcher out of town subsequent to another strong 7 years of NFL play including 4 all pro years

I was gonna post the same thing... 👍

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1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

I am not saying you are wrong BUT this is the EXACT narrative fans used to help railroad London Fletcher out of town subsequent to another strong 7 years of NFL play including 4 all pro years

I don’t know the answer to this.  Do you or anyone else?  
 

Did London Fletcher ever give up a passer rating of over 120 when targeted?  

we’re talking about one aspect of their games here. Just because people say that Fletcher and Edmunds have one similar flaw in their game (lots of downfield tackles), doesn’t mean that the rest of their game are similar.  
 

How about we compare their ability to diagnose plays, hit the correct gap, be fooled by the QBs eyes, be fooled by play action, the ability to shed blocks.  

 

London Fletcher wasn’t poised to become one of the highest paid Lbs in the league.  There’s a much bigger risk factor assigned to keeping Edmunds.  His contract could be crippling if we extend him and he doesn’t figure out how to play MLB. It’s a much different situation and player.  There’s only one similarity, they both make lots of downfield tackles 

 

 

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On 4/17/2021 at 1:13 PM, JaCrispy said:

RoyBatty, I’ve watched London Fletcher play...I’ve seen the instincts, I’ve seen the passion and hunger in his play...RoyBatty, Trumaine Edmunds is no London Fletcher...😉

I agree, Trumaine is no where near the players London Fletcher was then again he is still very young so "instincts" can develop, I do worry about his passion.

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1 minute ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

I agree, Trumaine is no where near the players London Fletcher was then again he is still very young so "instincts" can develop, I do worry about his passion.

He’s played more games in the NFL than college at this point. He’s not young.

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1 minute ago, FireChans said:

He’s played more games in the NFL than college at this point. He’s not young.

 

 

He's been a college and pro LB for 6 years now.      Inexperience shouldn't be an excuse for uninstinctive play at LB at this point.

 

The "but he's a young player" crowd reminds me a lot of the people who were insistent that CJ Spiller was going to rush for 2,000 yards after he had just his second 1,000 yard rushing season in 7 seasons of college or pro football.     You reach a certain point where it's kinda' foolish to keep expecting a player to turn into something different than what he has been. (which in Spiller's case was the laughable expectation that he was going to become a 350+ carry RB.)

 

Edmunds was raised by a pro football father........he isn't one of the wave of "athletes" we see every draft who weren't exposed to football until late in High School.........he was raised to be a pro football player.    The fact that the mental part of his game is what is lagging is a concern.

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On 4/17/2021 at 12:50 PM, fasteddie said:

The problem with looking at his stats, a majority of his tackles were 7 to 8 yards downfield. This puts the d in a difficult position. If he could ever learn how to tackle his man near the los, the d could be so much better. 

In 2019 he was top five for NFL linebackers for tackles for loss.. pure linebackers not olb edge rushers 

 

The injury definitely affected him last year, but he's shown that he can live around the line of scrimmage

 

Preston Brown was the king of tackling people 10 yards downfield.. Tremaine is still way ahead of him as a football player

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

In 2019 he was top five for NFL linebackers for tackles for loss.. pure linebackers not olb edge rushers 

 

The injury definitely affected him last year, but he's shown that he can live around the line of scrimmage

 

Preston Brown was the king of tackling people 10 yards downfield.. Tremaine is still way ahead of him as a football player

 

 

 

Preston Brown was top ONE in the entire NFL in tackles in this defense in 2017.

 

Stats aren't going to help defend Edmunds.........his 3 year totals are not impressive.........especially big plays LIKE tfl's and turnover stats.

 

To put the TFL stats in perspective.......he has 19 in 3 years.........Roquan Smith had 18 last year.  

 

He hasn't forced or recovered a fumble in his last 42 regular season games.

 

Guy just doesn't make plays anywhere near commensurate to his physical gifts. 

 

Also, Edmunds #'s get worse in the playoffs.   

 

And saying he is better than a JAG Preston Brown isn't saying much.

 

We are talking about the difference between a guy getting a cheap, one year $4M deal after leading the league in tackles versus Edmunds maybe getting a 5 year $70M deal to keep just being "better than Preston Brown".

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Preston Brown was top ONE in the entire NFL in tackles in this defense in 2017.

 

Stats aren't going to help defend Edmunds.........his 3 year totals are not impressive.........especially big plays LIKE tfl's and turnover stats.

 

To put the TFL stats in perspective.......he has 19 in 3 years.........Roquan Smith had 18 last year.  

 

He hasn't forced or recovered a fumble in his last 42 regular season games.

 

Guy just doesn't make plays anywhere near commensurate to his physical gifts. 

 

Also, Edmunds #'s get worse in the playoffs.   

 

And saying he is better than a JAG Preston Brown isn't saying much.

 

We are talking about the difference between a guy getting a cheap, one year $4M deal after leading the league in tackles versus Edmunds maybe getting a 5 year $70M deal to keep just being "better than Preston Brown".

 

 

 

 

Tremaine was top 5 for tackles for loss for linebackers in 2019 though (real LBrs not edge)

 

That was my point he actually did make plays around the line of scrimmage in 2019

 

And it really looked like the injury did hurt him last year

 

 

Edited by Buffalo716
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1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

In 2019 he was top five for NFL linebackers for tackles for loss.. pure linebackers not olb edge rushers 

 

The injury definitely affected him last year, but he's shown that he can live around the line of scrimmage

 

Preston Brown was the king of tackling people 10 yards downfield.. Tremaine is still way ahead of him as a football player

 

 

@Buffalo716how dare you confuse the narrative of always tackling downfield with facts that contradict that ... next you are going to say that Josh Rosen wasn’t the most NFL ready QB in the 2018 draft .. let me just say our feelings don’t care about your facts ;)

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24 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Preston Brown was top ONE in the entire NFL in tackles in this defense in 2017.

 

Stats aren't going to help defend Edmunds.........his 3 year totals are not impressive.........especially big plays LIKE tfl's and turnover stats.

 

To put the TFL stats in perspective.......he has 19 in 3 years.........Roquan Smith had 18 last year.  

 

He hasn't forced or recovered a fumble in his last 42 regular season games.

 

Guy just doesn't make plays anywhere near commensurate to his physical gifts. 

 

Also, Edmunds #'s get worse in the playoffs.   

 

And saying he is better than a JAG Preston Brown isn't saying much.

 

We are talking about the difference between a guy getting a cheap, one year $4M deal after leading the league in tackles versus Edmunds maybe getting a 5 year $70M deal to keep just being "better than Preston Brown".

 

 

 

 

Good Post. Contract situations like this are the ones that the Bills will have to nail down if they are going to have this even minded approach to FA and continue to improve. 

 

Josh and his own continued improvement will take this team places, but he will need some help against Mahomes and the elites. TFL’s and turnovers are the best way to end drives, Edmunds needs to improve there. 

 

I hope he does improve and makes the decision easy, or the Bills move him outside, or they draft an ILB and that player shines and makes Edmunds expendable.

 

There was a post earlier about the one thing each poster wants from this draft. I want a 4th/5th round ILB who lights up camp and pushes Edmunds. 

 

Ideally, add a CB at 30, get a better player than Star in the middle rounds, then bolster the LB group. That is the easiest way to improve this defense until they find an Edge rusher.

 

Avoid giving Edmunds long term big money, sign a top Edge next offseason. Then you go from front office of the year to future HOF candidates. 

 

These guys are doing a good job but they are a few sound decisions away from being great. I hope Beane can find the players and make the tough calls that are coming and put the Bills over the top. 

 

With Josh’s talent and the current culture I think the Bills can win one, if they want to win multiple they won’t be able to be stubborn when making decisins on players they drafted or like. 

 

Go Bills. 

 

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4 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Tremaine was top 5 for tackles for loss for linebackers in 2019 though (real LBrs not edge)

 

That was my point he actually did make plays around the line of scrimmage in 2019

 

And it really looked like the injury did hurt him last year

 

 

 

 

Edmunds had 10 TFL in 2019.........Preston Brown had 7 in 2017.   

 

Edmunds has just 9 in his other two seasons combined.

 

You besmirched ol' Preston using TFL numbers as the basis when there really wasn't much difference.....Edmunds hasn't even averaged as many as Preston did to earn his walking papers.

 

Bottom line, neither have been playmakers.

 

And as I've said before.........that 2019 schedule was maybe the easiest they've had since the league went to 16 games.    It really caused some unrealistic expectations relative to the talent the Bills defense was putting on the field.

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17 hours ago, FireChans said:

He’s played more games in the NFL than college at this point. He’s not young.

You dont like him I get it but the fact he played more pro games than college is interesting but hardly relevant and is highly selective data on your part to try and prove a point.  Sorry,  but a 22 year old pro football player  by any reasonable definition is "young".

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2 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

You dont like him I get it but the fact he played more pro games than college is interesting but hardly relevant and is highly selective data on your part to try and prove a point.  Sorry,  but a 22 year old pro football player  by any reasonable definition is "young".

No it’s really not. A 22 year old rookie and a 22 year old 3 year pro are quite different. This is pretty obvious.

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I like Fairburn's Bills articles on the Athletic. They have the depth of someone who actually watches the Bills closely not just parroting what others are saying.

 

I recalled that someone asked this same question about investing in locking up Edmunds a while back in his "mailbag" and thought his response mirrors much of what has been said in our own dialogue on this topic.

 

 

"Right now, I don’t think I would. Of course, the Bills have another year to decide on that. A lot of this will come down to what Edmunds and his agents want that second contract to look like.

 

I don’t think he’s played well enough to warrant a market-setting contract at linebacker.

 

He’s not a consistent game changer in that way, at least not yet. He could become that type of player, but it’s not what we’ve seen so far.

 

If Edmunds looked like he did in the Ravens game more often, it would be an easy choice to sign him to a second contract. But these negotiations could get complicated when you consider that Edmunds’ potential hasn’t matched up with the reality on the field quite often enough.

 

That’s not to say it can’t happen, but you asked me to make the decision today. I’d spend the money elsewhere."

 

So we are back to where Beane probably is sitting... a key year to evaluate Edmunds and determine if he wants to lock him up long term and if so, for how much?

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, WideNine said:

I like Fairburn's Bills articles on the Athletic. They have the depth of someone who actually watches the Bills closely not just parroting what others are saying.

 

I recalled that someone asked this same question about investing in locking up Edmunds a while back in his "mailbag" and thought his response mirrors much of what has been said in our own dialogue on this topic.

 

 

"Right now, I don’t think I would. Of course, the Bills have another year to decide on that. A lot of this will come down to what Edmunds and his agents want that second contract to look like.

 

I don’t think he’s played well enough to warrant a market-setting contract at linebacker.

 

He’s not a consistent game changer in that way, at least not yet. He could become that type of player, but it’s not what we’ve seen so far.

 

If Edmunds looked like he did in the Ravens game more often, it would be an easy choice to sign him to a second contract. But these negotiations could get complicated when you consider that Edmunds’ potential hasn’t matched up with the reality on the field quite often enough.

 

That’s not to say it can’t happen, but you asked me to make the decision today. I’d spend the money elsewhere."

 

So we are back to where Beane probably is sitting... a key year to evaluate Edmunds and determine if he wants to lock him up long term and if so, for how much?

 

 

So I still think Beane and McDermott are probably more sold than Matt Fairburn. I am all but certain they will pick up the option and of course this year is big for the evaluation of Edmunds going forward. While I agree with what Fairburn says - Edmunds has not been a consistent game changer to the extent that he deserves a top of the market contract - I suspect as we sit here today the Bills would lean more towards signing him. I don't think the extension is a done deal in quite the way I think the 5th year option is, but I would be inclined to still say it is more likely than not at this stage. I have said it repeatedly throughout this thread - I think when you listen to what the regime said about Tremaine over the course of and at the end of last season they are much more sold on him than fans and media. 

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