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The Great Tremaine Edmunds Debate


JohnNord

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2 hours ago, soflabillsfan1 said:

It's funny how Pro Bowls all of a sudden mean something.  I thought it was a big popularity contest?

Sadly withthe new CBA they do. I think it stupid that making a Pro Bowl or not in first 4 years should impact how much you need to pay a 1st Rounder in year 5.

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Darius Leonard was sitting there until the Colts grabbed him at 36.   If you compare the two guys its a game changer vs a decent player, and to make mattersbworse we gave up a lot to move up for Tremaine.   

 

He sure is a likeable guy though, and a hard worker, plays well in space, covering screens, passing lanes etc.  Just not a thumper or block shedder which is unfortunate.

 

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Amazingly, the Bills could solve all of their problems on defense for the cost of one third round pick!  Draft Peter Werner from OSU and by mid-season he’ll be able to man the Mike spot.  There’s your instinctive thumper in the middle.  Meanwhile you move Edmunds outside and he becomes a 12-15 sack guy.  Boom.

 

Not that they have the stones to do it but it would work.

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23 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:


 

The only question I have is when you say: “He hasn’t lived up to his draft status” - what exactly pushes that.

 

 As a late 1st round pick - he has been voted outright to 1 ProBowl and was an alternate to another in 3 years.  He is the caller of the defense and plays on over 90% of the snaps (among the top on the team).  He was an integral part of 2018 and 2019 defenses that were top 5 and excellent against the pass.

 

What exactly do we expect from a draft pick to live up to his position.  
 

If people want to say MLB is not a premier position and is not worthy of a huge salary - I can get behind that, but if I draft a guy in the 1st round and in his first 3 years he goes to 2 ProBowls and the defense is Top 5 twice and top 10 in a weird year where he and his LB mate were both injured - I am ecstatic with what he has given me.

 

I have no issues with the Bills looking to draft a LB and maybe having to trade or move on from Edmunds after the season to maintain salary integrity, but it is position based not that he has not lived up to his draft spot.  Everyone complained and wanted Vander Esch after the early part of year 1, but Edmunds has been shown to be a better choice and is a top AFC LB year after year.

 

 

 

Your assessment of Edmunds' play is considerably more optimistic than mine. The question then becomes: how does Beane feel about all this? If he picks up Edmunds' fifth year option, that's strong evidence he agrees with you and disagrees with me. If on the other hand he chooses not to pick up the fifth year, that's evidence he agrees with me. He has until early May to decide one way or the other, so we'll see what he does.

 

As for my specific concerns about Edmunds: we're 19 pages into an Edmunds debate. I have nothing original to contribute on that subject. If you want I can repeat things already voiced by others: he lacks the ability to process information quickly, is easily fooled, takes bad angles, is bad at shedding blocks, is not as good at tackling as one might want. This past season the defense was very vulnerable to TEs, which raises the question as to how much of that was Edmunds' fault.

 

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40 minutes ago, Arm of Harm said:

 

Your assessment of Edmunds' play is considerably more optimistic than mine. The question then becomes: how does Beane feel about all this? If he picks up Edmunds' fifth year option, that's strong evidence he agrees with you and disagrees with me. If on the other hand he chooses not to pick up the fifth year, that's evidence he agrees with me. He has until early May to decide one way or the other, so we'll see what he does.

 

As for my specific concerns about Edmunds: we're 19 pages into an Edmunds debate. I have nothing original to contribute on that subject. If you want I can repeat things already voiced by others: he lacks the ability to process information quickly, is easily fooled, takes bad angles, is bad at shedding blocks, is not as good at tackling as one might want. This past season the defense was very vulnerable to TEs, which raises the question as to how much of that was Edmunds' fault.

 


 

The only thing I will disagree with is picking up the 5th year option.  Beane has a value for MLB in his head and if the 12+ million is over that (as I suspect it is because that is more than I would want to pay) - then even if Beane is optimistic on Edmunds - he would not sign his option and would just work to re-sign him - similar to Milano.

 

The evidence would be if they let Edmunds walk to sign a deal next year for significantly below market value.  That would show they did not want him at any cost.  If they work to re-sign him at an AAV of 10 million or so - where I suspect they have him slotted - it would be a sign they wanted him back, but not at all costs.

 

We have seen this GM as part of a FO in Carolina do that exact thing to CBs and they did it to Phillips and Lawson last year.  They have a price point and even if they want you back - they work hard to keep players in the slotted range they have set aside.

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8 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:


 

The only thing I will disagree with is picking up the 5th year option.  Beane has a value for MLB in his head and if the 12+ million is over that (as I suspect it is because that is more than I would want to pay) - then even if Beane is optimistic on Edmunds - he would not sign his option and would just work to re-sign him - similar to Milano.

 

The evidence would be if they let Edmunds walk to sign a deal next year for significantly below market value.  That would show they did not want him at any cost.  If they work to re-sign him at an AAV of 10 million or so - where I suspect they have him slotted - it would be a sign they wanted him back, but not at all costs.

 

We have seen this GM as part of a FO in Carolina do that exact thing to CBs and they did it to Phillips and Lawson last year.  They have a price point and even if they want you back - they work hard to keep players in the slotted range they have set aside.

 

That's fair. If they re-sign Edmunds, whatever number they give him will presumably indicate how much they value him. I'd probably give him 6 or 7 million, and your 10 million isn't too far off from that. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out.

 

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On 4/21/2021 at 6:54 PM, Rochesterfan said:


 

Yes and the immediate answer is the Bills knew that was not good enough and moved on from Brown immediately.

 

Why should this be different.  If they were not at all happy with Edmunds - wouldn’t they of looked to switch it up and move him around to OLB or something?  Wouldn’t they look for the veteran replacement and find a different spot for him - if he is as bad as people say.

 

The pat answer is no - the Bills FO has pride and doesn’t want to look bad because he was a high draft pick, but they were not afraid to move and replace Cody Ford on the OLine - even bringing in a veteran replacement, they moved on from Zay Jones another high pick, other picks like Ray Ray McCloud were cut - so it appears the bills staff recognizes failure to produce what they want.  Even so far as drafting Moss after drafting Singletary or bringing in Hollister to help Knox.

 

The facts as we have it right now is that the Bills started Edmunds in year 1 at MLB and he had struggles and issues, but got better as the year went on.  They put him back in the middle in year 2 and he had his best year and was a ProBowl alternate.  Year 1 and 2 he was above average in pass defense including some Ints and TEs struggled mightily against the defense including no TDs in his first year.  The Bills put him back in the middle in year 3 and he was an outright ProBowl selection at the end of the year.  Another fact is that he struggles when DL get their hands on him - he can’t get away and make plays.
 

What are opinions and thoughts seem to be that: Last year he struggled in coverage and against the run.  We also know he was injured, but we will never know exactly how bad, but he missed a game and it seemed to affect him for several others.  There are opinions that he is late and makes a lot of bad run fill reads and makes many tackles down field.  The prevailing opinion, and maybe it is 100% correct, is that he never makes a big or important play. 

 

What we have seen from the Bills is that they must feel he is at least adequate at the job they are asking him to do.  3 years and they have not worked to replace him, bench him, or take him off the field.  He plays just about the highest percentage of snaps on the defense of any player game after game - so they must not consider him to much of a liability.  The Bills do seem to have qualms about what his value is because they have not outright picked up the option and very little has been said about an extension.  
 

Again the proof will be in the action - do they draft a guy like Collins to fill the MLB and move Edmunds around?  Do they not pick up his option after the draft?  Do the Bills tell us they are going to let him play out the season and we will decide his fate after the season?  Do they give Klein more early snaps in the middle and just bring in Edmunds on passing downs?  Does his number and percentage of snaps drop significantly?  These will all tell us what they think.  Right now every indication is that the Bills are fine with him as they have done nothing that limits his time on the field - through 3 FA periods and 2 drafts.  They also did not indicate the option was off the table - just that they were waiting until after the draft - which could indicate something or could be a sign of the Bills working on some long term deals that might give the flexibility to use the option.

 

That "proof" will prove only the level of confidence or the Bills FO has in both Edmunds ceiling and his ability to attain it, or proof that they are capable of stubborn denial regarding his game-day struggles.

 

The proof for me will be is he more of a game changer than he has been defending passes, creating turnovers and critical stops or TFLs; Does his play improve with a better NT in the middle of the line absorbing blockers?

 

I had beef with PFF regarding Allen, not because of the stats, but because they closed their eyes to the piss-poor blocking and bottom-tier receivers he was working with.

 

Even that did not torque me as much as the summary statements that he would never improve from the get-go without giving the time needed to see if he could trend in the right direction with better support.

 

He was known to be a raw project coming out, the expectations should have better aligned to that reality.

 

Edmunds was not considered a project and has had several years in the same system. We should expect to see more improvement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Amazingly, the Bills could solve all of their problems on defense for the cost of one third round pick!  Draft Peter Werner from OSU and by mid-season he’ll be able to man the Mike spot.  There’s your instinctive thumper in the middle.  Meanwhile you move Edmunds outside and he becomes a 12-15 sack guy.  Boom.

 

Not that they have the stones to do it but it would work.

 

I think there could be a chance of that happening.  It's what makes the draft exciting.

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On 4/26/2021 at 4:43 PM, Rochesterfan said:


 

Doesn’t really change much for me - of all the LBs drafted that were available to the Bills (so excluding Chubb and Smith) - Edmunds is beat by Leonard and maybe Warner - it is not like he is a the 10th or 12th best LB from that draft.

 

We selected Edmunds as the 3rd LB and after 3 years he is still easily top 5 out of his draft class and top 3 at his position.  Even as good as a guy like Smith has been being drafted 8 picks higher - Edmunds has more ProBowls, more passes defended, more forced fumbles, and nearly matches him in tackles.  Guys like Chubb and Leonard are more outside guys so some different stats, but both are probably better in their position.

 

The other inside guy in Warner has more tackles, but less sacks, less passes defended, and the same number of INTs.  So for me - you have 3 quality inside LBs from that draft in Edmunds, Smith, and Warner and the numbers between all 3 are close.  I also think each of those 3 guys are fits for the teams that got them.

 

So again - I am not sure what to expect as we drafted him to do exactly what he has been doing and for the role we have there was one LB in Warner drafted after him that is better.

 

As noted.......he wasn't a late first round pick.........he was literally middle of the first.    That matters because the perception in most drafts is that the "first round grades" end once you get 20 picks in.

 

And you are talking up forced fumbles as a stat on Edmunds when he hasn't had one in the last 42 games?  Seriously?

 

Yeah he may have about the same amount of tackles as Roquan Smith but Roquan had 18 TFL's last year........Edmunds has 19 for his career.    

 

Edmunds instincts have been disappointing but that could be overlooked if he made plays........what's damning is that he doesn't make the kind of plays that change games.......turn the ball over, or collect TFL's/sacks........he's not a game changing player he is top 10-15 MLB in a league where the overwhelming amount of the league's best MLB's are in the opposite conference.   

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On 4/26/2021 at 3:29 PM, Turk71 said:

Edmunds looks completely lost out there at times, is often out of position and is a liability in coverage. The thing he seems best at is using his speed to chase down ball carriers who got by him. The Bills need better lb play in the middle. 

  Maybe last year's ridiculous Pro Bowl selection will add something to his trade value. At this point there is no way I would be picking up his 5th year $12.5 million option.

  

I agree there's times he looks lost. I've defended edmunds alot, its not easy being the LB in the Bills D. The LBs are the focal point of the defense so it's very easy to look bad at times. But watching re runs of games I found myself saying "come on man you gotta make that" alot. And it really changed my opinion on edmunds, he had a down year. He's gonna need to show some serious improvement this year if the bills are gonna pay him.

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14 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

 

 

EJ Manuel was 23 when he signed with the Bills,   Trumaine is now  22.  So you are you going to insist that EJ when he signed wasn't young?   

 

You lose.

EJ sucked. He had two years to prove it.
 

Tremaine has had 3 to prove what he was. The fact we are having this debate about the super young 3 year NFL veteran proves it. 
 

He isn’t a rookie. He isn’t basically a rookie. He’s been in the NFL longer than the average NFL career. He was a middle first round pick who has underperformed to expectations. 

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

As noted.......he wasn't a late first round pick.........he was literally middle of the first.    That matters because the perception in most drafts is that the "first round grades" end once you get 20 picks in.

 

And you are talking up forced fumbles as a stat on Edmunds when he hasn't had one in the last 42 games?  Seriously?

 

Yeah he may have about the same amount of tackles as Roquan Smith but Roquan had 18 TFL's last year........Edmunds has 19 for his career.    

 

Edmunds instincts have been disappointing but that could be overlooked if he made plays........what's damning is that he doesn't make the kind of plays that change games.......turn the ball over, or collect TFL's/sacks........he's not a game changing player he is top 10-15 MLB in a league where the overwhelming amount of the league's best MLB's are in the opposite conference.   

To be fair to Tremaine, he had a REALLY bad stretch of zero TFL’s last year that coincided with his injury. I think it was week 7 or 8 and he had zero on the year.

 

He’s definitely underperforming but that injury makes him look worse.

 

His biggest problem is he is this absolute physical specimen who does nothing great. He’s not great in coverage, not great in diagnosing plays, not great in disrupting blocks. 3 PD’s on the year is ATROCIOUS.

 

and for those who say his impact is beyond the stat sheet, that’s the Sammy Watkins defense. At this level you produce or you get shipped out. If you have a bunch of defenders who don’t make impact on the stat sheet (Shooting Star Loutototo) you end with a mediocre defense and look what we have.

Edited by FireChans
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2 hours ago, FireChans said:

EJ sucked. He had two years to prove it.
 

Tremaine has had 3 to prove what he was. The fact we are having this debate about the super young 3 year NFL veteran proves it. 
 

He isn’t a rookie. He isn’t basically a rookie. He’s been in the NFL longer than the average NFL career. He was a middle first round pick who has underperformed to expectations. 

To be fair to Tremaine, he had a REALLY bad stretch of zero TFL’s last year that coincided with his injury. I think it was week 7 or 8 and he had zero on the year.

 

He’s definitely underperforming but that injury makes him look worse.

 

His biggest problem is he is this absolute physical specimen who does nothing great. He’s not great in coverage, not great in diagnosing plays, not great in disrupting blocks. 3 PD’s on the year is ATROCIOUS.

 

and for those who say his impact is beyond the stat sheet, that’s the Sammy Watkins defense. At this level you produce or you get shipped out. If you have a bunch of defenders who don’t make impact on the stat sheet (Shooting Star Loutototo) you end with a mediocre defense and look what we have.

 

LOL

 

EJ Manuel has nothing to do with the Tremaine question but keep at it and I never said or intimated Tremiane was a rookie but if you want to twist my words to advance you your agenda go for it if it means that much to you.

 

You dont like him, I got it, we all get it over and over and over again.

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