Fins Heaven is a hilarious read if you have the time

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

I do remember.  I also remember the Bills doing the same exact thing, and getting more out of their team.   I dont think you can separate the QB decision from his direction as a head coach.  I agree with you on Tua.  He has a quick release, but even when he was at Alabama you could see he lacked arm strength, was slight, and was injury prone.   Not to mention he was playing with one of the best wideout corps in college football history. 

 

I just dont see it with Flores.   I think you'll see the Dolphins regress next year when they have to play a 2nd place schedule and not a 4th place schedule like this year.   Agree to disagree on this.  But it reminds me a lot of the media narrative on Coaches like Todd Bowles, and Gus Bradley who were master motivators who were going to come in and change the culture.    Bottom line, if the Dolphins dont get a QB I dont think they win more than 7 or 8 games next year.

 

 

The evaluation of Tua as a prospect isn't on the coach. If your argument for not liking Flores is you don't like Tua then that isn't on him. That is on Chris Grier. As for the Bradley comparison.... waaaaaay off. He never got close to changing the culture. Todd Bowles I actually have some symapthy with. He came in and got a vet team to 10-6 his first year and only just missed the playoffs. His record after that did stink but I think he was badly let down by personnel decisions. Bowles could still get another shot some place IMO. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Yav]

56 minutes ago, T master said:

 

 

I think if the Bills had a really good RB (like a A.J Dillon) and some of the D rookies could develop into top D players this team could be even better than the Bills of the 90's . 

 

 

Can't compare, different era for sure and Bruce Smith was a once in a life time player. 
What those 90's Bills teams did, I don't think will ever be duplicated. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

28 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

I do remember.  I also remember the Bills doing the same exact thing, and getting more out of their team.   I dont think you can separate the QB decision from his direction as a head coach.  I agree with you on Tua.  He has a quick release, but even when he was at Alabama you could see he lacked arm strength, was slight, and was injury prone.   Not to mention he was playing with one of the best wideout corps in college football history. 

 

I just dont see it with Flores.   I think you'll see the Dolphins regress next year when they have to play a 2nd place schedule and not a 4th place schedule like this year.   Agree to disagree on this.  But it reminds me a lot of the media narrative on Coaches like Todd Bowles, and Gus Bradley who were master motivators who were going to come in and change the culture.    Bottom line, if the Dolphins dont get a QB I dont think they win more than 7 or 8 games next year.

 

 

 

We shall see.  They did win 10 this year with Fitz and Tua, i think that in itself is a hell of an accomplishment.  The Dolphins have a bounty of picks and could snag a good QB prospect at #3.  As for Tua, Fitz is getting old and I am not sure he will be around next year to bail out Tua.

[Matt_In_NH]

13 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:

There’s a lot of them who have no issue with it. And they shouldn’t. It’s sports.

The reality is it is not all that different than Bills forums.  A lot of fans in general have a hard time being objective.

[KGun12TD]

Pure Humor Gold...Thank you so much for this. I can't stop laughing.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

38 minutes ago, mattynh said:

I figured some of their fans would say that.  The only play that really showed this was the pass to Davis.  Which I can sort of understand but the Dolphins were stat building and continuing to try and get back in the game so it if was over maybe they should have let off the gas some.   Some of being a good play caller is doing the opposite of what the defense thinks you are going to do.   The Dolphins are stacking the box expecting you to run clock, throw it over their heads and make them defend more, I have no issue with that.

 

LOL.  I'll wait for one of the film gurus for that, but the pass to Davis appears to me as Miami showing an aggressive "cover0" or "blitz0" look pre-snap.  Then as it happened, they didn't bring a full-out blitz but dropped guys over the middle in coverage and only rushed four, which is something they like to do.

 

Brett Kollman has a good thing on Cover0 if you're interested, but fundamentally, what a defense is doing with "cover0" or "blitz0" is daring the QB to beat them deep**.  If he can't, they'll be in his face hard the rest of the game (Baltimore did this to Allen last year).  If he can, it's an invitation to a TD.

 

Basically what Miami's D did was disrespect Barkley's arm and say "I don't think you can throw deep, I don't think the OL you've got can protect you well enough for you to throw deep even though we're not really bringing the heat, and if you can throw deep I don't think the WR you've got in the game can catch it deep.

 

Barkley and Daboll said "OK, you want to be that way, we'll be that way too."

 

Here's just post-snap, pretty much like pre-snap look.  Note you can see all 11 defenders and the FS is only 5-6 yds or so off the LOS.  I don't know if it is blitz0, but it's for sure a blitz0 kind of look.  The Bills only have 2 WR on the field.

 

 

Here's at the top of Barkley's drop.  Barkley has glanced at Davis, seen that he's gotten a free release and is gonna beat his guy, and has moved on to staring at McKenzie.   Meanwhile, Miami is all "ha ha fooled ya, only rushing 4" and Barkley has time to dial up Jimmy Johns and order a sandwich back there.

 

I don't know what Miami is doing at this point - maybe hoping Barkley will throw to McKenzie and they can jump the route and pick?  Because the safety seems to be in a staring contest with Barkley.

 

Just after Barkley releases.  Notice that McKenzie has beaten his guy but the safety is in a fine position to rob the route.  Meanwhile, Davis has beaten his guy like a drum.  There's nothing ahead of him but "land, lots of land under starry skies above" and Davis makes the catch and starts singing "Let me ride through the wild open country that I love"

 

I don't know what Flores and the Miami D were thinking, but "safeties" are called "safeties" for a reason.  They outsmarted themselves there.  And I know we like to diss on Barkley here, but he is an NFL QB with a competent NFL QB brain and he sorted that play and did the right thing.

 

**screen play also effective

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

By page 2, a few of the Miami posters were alluding to the fact that the time outs being called were probably the reason for the long ball.

 

[thenorthremembers]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The evaluation of Tua as a prospect isn't on the coach. If your argument for not liking Flores is you don't like Tua then that isn't on him. That is on Chris Grier. As for the Bradley comparison.... waaaaaay off. He never got close to changing the culture. Todd Bowles I actually have some symapthy with. He came in and got a vet team to 10-6 his first year and only just missed the playoffs. His record after that did stink but I think he was badly let down by personnel decisions. Bowles could still get another shot some place IMO. 

I wouldnt say I dont like Flores.  I just think all of the media and fan love is a little premature.   He is a below .500 coach.   My comparison to Bradley wasnt based on record or outcome, it was based on the media reaction to him as well.  If you recall he was the high energy guy with the exoctic defense that was going to turn the organization around.  Now with Flores he is the more low key detail oriented guy who would turn the organization around like Bowles.

 

On Tua and personnel decisions, its not strictly on the GM.  The GM and coach work together to decide who will be on the 53.   The coach has final say over  the game day roster.   Again, time will tell whether he succeeds.   My point right now is he hasnt.  He was 10-6 playing a 4th place schedule, nearly half of their wins this year came against teams with a combined record of 9-54.   I just think the Flores love is a bit premature is all.   

 

On the Bowles thing, I think he is a fantastic coordinator but I'd be very surprised if he gets a second shot.

Edited January 5, 2021 by thenorthremembers

[atomicpwrd]

50 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

WRT the actual thread:

 

There is no such thing as running up the score in professional sports. And I'd even say there is no such thing as running up the score in College Football either.

 

These guys are paid professionals. You dont want them to score, then stop them. We put our backups in, so stop them. It would be even more insulting and humiliating for us to, what?, go out and kneel it down 3 times then punt? What do they want us to do?

 

It wasnt running up the score when the Pats did it to us. It isnt running up the score when we do it to other teams.

 

If they don't like getting scored on, then stop us.

I agree 100%...plus there is this:

 

Maybe we should take our foot off the gas after the first half so we can blow a lead and booted in the first round of the playoffs

 

-or-

 

Take our foot off the gas and let the other team get close so we can lose to a hail mary...

 

When a team is down...finish the job...nobody is gonna feel sorry for us if we lose because we tried to play nice.

 

We put our backups in against your starters...if you can't stop them are we just supposed to lay down on the field?  Total ridiculousness!

[TheBrownBear]

It's fun to read, but signing up and posting to gloat is pretty low.  Picture how pissed and emotional our fanbase would be if the Pats just kicked our teeth in and knocked us out of the playoffs.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

I wouldnt say I dont like Flores.  I just think all of the media and fan love is a little premature.   He is a below .500 coach.   My comparison to Bradley wasnt based on record or outcome, it was based on the media reaction to him as well.  If you recall he was the high energy guy with the exoctic defense that was going to turn the organization around.  Now with Flores he is the more low key detail oriented guy who would turn the organization around like Bowles.

 

On Tua and personnel decisions, its not strictly on the GM.  The GM and coach work together to decide who will be on the 53.   The coach has final say over  the game day roster.   Again, time will tell whether he succeeds.   My point right now is he hasnt.  He was 10-6 playing a 4th place schedule, nearly half of their wins this year came against teams with a combined record of 9-54.   I just think the Flores love is a bit premature is all.   

 

On the Bowles thing, I think he is a fantastic coordinator but I'd be very surprised if he gets a second shot.

 

The evaluation of Tua was the GM. Now I accept if Flores was set against it he's have been able to veto, but the decision to select Tua was on the GM. The decision to start him seems less clear cut but it was the right decision IMO. You have a team that is on the rise and could be competitive very soon so you better find out what you have at Quarterback. And their wins came mainly against weaker teams? Sure. Just like the 10-6 Bills a year ago. It is natural progression. Now maybe the QB position will hold them back. Maybe the coaching will.... but to this point Flores deserves the love he is getting. He has done an excellent job. He wouldn't be my coach of the year but I wouldn't argue anyone who votes for him. 

[Jauronimo]

If it was week 16 against a 3-12 team, then yeah, poor sportsmanship.  But it was week 17 against a team playing for a wild card spot and a team playing for homefield.  If you get beat by 30 points, thats on you Phins.  Are we supposed to take pity on a 10-5 team that we were a coin flip away from playing the very next week?!?!?!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, atomicpwrd said:

I agree 100%...plus there is this:

 

Maybe we should take our foot off the gas after the first half so we can blow a lead and booted in the first round of the playoffs

 

-or-

 

Take our foot off the gas and let the other team get close so we can lose to a hail mary...

 

When a team is down...finish the job...nobody is gonna feel sorry for us if we lose because we tried to play nice.

 

We put our backups in against your starters...if you can't stop them are we just supposed to lay down on the field?  Total ridiculousness!

 

Exactly correct on all points, especially that last: "We put our backups in against your starters, if you can't stop them are we supposed to just lay down on the field?"

 

Especially when the Dolphins are still playing aggressively on defense with that blitz0 looking thingy they did on the Davis TD where once he beat his guy they had nobody downfield.

[FastFreddy22]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

LOL.  I'll wait for one of the film gurus for that, but the pass to Davis appears to me as Miami showing an aggressive "cover0" or "blitz0" look pre-snap.  Then as it happened, they didn't bring a full-out blitz but dropped guys over the middle in coverage and only rushed four, which is something they like to do.

 

Brett Kollman has a good thing on Cover0 if you're interested, but fundamentally, what a defense is doing with "cover0" or "blitz0" is daring the QB to beat them deep**.  If he can't, they'll be in his face hard the rest of the game (Baltimore did this to Allen last year).  If he can, it's an invitation to a TD.

 

Basically what Miami's D did was disrespect Barkley's arm and say "I don't think you can throw deep, I don't think the OL you've got can protect you well enough for you to throw deep even though we're not really bringing the heat, and if you can throw deep I don't think the WR you've got in the game can catch it deep.

 

Barkley and Daboll said "OK, you want to be that way, we'll be that way too."

 

Here's just post-snap, pretty much like pre-snap look.  Note you can see all 11 defenders and the FS is only 5-6 yds or so off the LOS.  I don't know if it is blitz0, but it's for sure a blitz0 kind of look.  The Bills only have 2 WR on the field.

 

 

Here's at the top of Barkley's drop.  Barkley has glanced at Davis, seen that he's gotten a free release and is gonna beat his guy, and has moved on to staring at McKenzie.   Meanwhile, Miami is all "ha ha fooled ya, only rushing 4" and Barkley has time to dial up Jimmy Johns and order a sandwich back there.

 

I don't know what Miami is doing at this point - maybe hoping Barkley will throw to McKenzie and they can jump the route and pick?  Because the safety seems to be in a staring contest with Barkley.

 

Just after Barkley releases.  Notice that McKenzie has beaten his guy but the safety is in a fine position to rob the route.  Meanwhile, Davis has beaten his guy like a drum.  There's nothing ahead of him but "land, lots of land under starry skies above" and Davis makes the catch and starts singing "Let me ride through the wild open country that I love"

 

I don't know what Flores and the Miami D were thinking, but "safeties" are called "safeties" for a reason.  They outsmarted themselves there.  And I know we like to diss on Barkley here, but he is an NFL QB with a competent NFL QB brain and he sorted that play and did the right thing.

 

**screen play also effective

 

Great breakdown this would make Brian Baldinger proud

[LewPort71]

41 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

We have that if you are not a logged in member. I'd assume that goes away on Fin Haven if you are a member as well.

 

SDS has gotta pay the bills somehow!

You are correct,  As a "guest" there is an ad after  the first post in a thread.  

 

GO Bills

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

If it was week 16 against a 3-12 team, then yeah, poor sportsmanship.  But it was week 17 against a team playing for a wild card spot and a team playing for homefield.  If you get beat by 30 points, thats on you Phins.  Are we supposed to take pity on a 10-5 team that we were a coin flip away from playing the very next week?!?!?!

 

We were playing backups in all 3 phases of the game.  The Phins were still playing like they were trying to get back into it - timeouts, blitz0 looks, onside kicks.

 

 

[MJS]

Backup players don't get to play much. I'm willing to get them some good experience against starters and risk fans crying about running up the score.

 

It's the NFL. Deal with it. The Bills did the right thing and they now understand their backup players better in case they are needed during their playoff run.

[Golden*Wheels]

I mean...we could have faced them the very next week, though that was long odds, right?  In any other case, I'd kind of be like...yeah..you normally DON'T have the backup QB tossing bombs. But given we might have seenthem the next week...i think we were trying to make a point.

 

'Come back, and just know you gonna get it again. Cuz we can. Even with our backups.'

[FastFreddy22]

7 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

It's fun to read, but signing up and posting to gloat is pretty low.  Picture how pissed and emotional our fanbase would be if the Pats just kicked our teeth in and knocked us out of the playoffs.

I dont think any of us have.  I just posted for us to read and enjoy that were the team providing the fire now! Go Bills!!

[May Day 10]

I dislike running up the score, but I dont think this was a case of that.

 

First off, the Bills had practice squad guys doing it, and Matt Barkely.  

 

Second, the Dolphins were not calling it.  They were still trying to win, attempting to hurry up, pass the ball, timeouts, etc.  Give up and start running clock, show your belly and fold your hand if you dont want the other team to score points.  If the Dolphins were clearly just trying to get out of there, then yes, I think the Bills should do their part to just run the 4th quarter.