Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

2 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

It’s really a 1 year deal.  They can get out easily after this year which they will 

 

We said the same thing about Trent Murphy, but he's still here in his 3rd season with his 10mm cap hit. 

 

It's possible to think Beane is a good GM while admitting that he's made some mistakes. 

 

I wouldn't call letting Philips and Lawson walk a mistake either. The problem was who Beane chose to replace them, and I worry that Addison was just good enough to keep around and not opt out of his contract. 

 

Big picture the Bills are one of the best teams in the league (at least while Allen is on rookie contract). It's tough to find anything to complain about 😄

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

3 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Beane knows his own players. Literally the only slip up of his is Wyatt Teller. Even that wasn’t a total loss, Beane got a pick back for Teller. 

At the time, Teller was still developing and was the odd man out.  As you point out getting a pick for him was a good move.  Teller is a good run blocker but still struggles with pass protection.  He's also missed some time with injuries.  In the overall scheme of things, I'm okay with the way it worked out for the Bills.

[Pirate Angel]

Addison and Vernon Butler havent exactly put on a clinic. 

[Mr. WEO]

Adios, bums.

[Billschinatown]

Kind of a bitter ex-girlfriend vibe to this thread. Let it go. We’re happy and thriving.

[Malazan]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Haha fair point. But I would say that we have yet to see Beane operate when the belt gets tighter.

 

Spending $30M on a JAG level player like Addison to shore up a spot is a luxury we soon will not be able to afford.

 

I'm confused here because the best attribute Beane has isn't that he hits more often than other GMs. His contracts are always fairly easy to get out of if they turn sour. If they want out of year 3 on Addison then it's a 2 mill dead cap hit. They could walk away this offseason for 4 million if they wanted. 

 

Lawson's been surpassed by other players on Miami's roster. He's going to have to work to be the starter next season.

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

I'm confused here because the best attribute Beane has isn't that he hits more often than other GMs. His contracts are always fairly easy to get out of if they turn sour. If they want out of year 3 on Addison then it's a 2 mill dead cap hit. They could walk away this offseason for 4 million if they wanted. 

 

Lawson's been surpassed by other players on Miami's roster. He's going to have to work to be the starter next season.

Right, because he has enough money up front to give a guy like Addison.

 

Like I said, those high floor contracts become less easy to come by when the belt is tight. A team like the Chiefs won't be able to sign those mid level contracts in FA next year.

[machine gun kelly]

5 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Well, when your GM drafts the Mandalorian as your teams QB, he’s bound to be right more frequently that the fans..., just sayin 

 

Go Bills!!!

Don, I’m already sick of this nickname.  I know you’re just kidding.

 

Trout, some good points on Phillips from another, but the bottom line is they tested the market and Beane made a business decision.  I think they make held onto one or both if they wanted to be here at the right price.  I don’t fault either side.  Both guys were definitely not worth what they were paid.

[Da webster guy]

Early season we felt the loss when teams were running all over us.

 

Both players were good against the run and with the loss of Star and Harrison/Butler's slow starts we were weak inside.  For awhile there we had poor Ed playing the 1 tech at 270lbs thats just cruel.  

 

As usual for McD and Frasier, they're good at fixing leaks, the season wore on and we're decent against the run now.  Shaq and Jordan would have both been contributors but for the money on those deals not a good value from a year 1 perspective.

 

Speaking of Star, he must feel like a complete idiot missing all of this.

 

 

[Big Blitz]

1 hour ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

At the time, Teller was still developing and was the odd man out.  As you point out getting a pick for him was a good move.  Teller is a good run blocker but still struggles with pass protection.  He's also missed some time with injuries.  In the overall scheme of things, I'm okay with the way it worked out for the Bills.

 

 

There is more to the story with Teller then I think people know.  

 

He went to VA Tech to play D Line.  He was one of the top recruits in the country.  

 

Out of necessity the Hokies moved him to Oline.  He got better during his career and getting drafted seemed likely tho late.  Oh and they only moved him to Guard his junior year.  

 

So he was a project.  His game had and still has flaws.  And he happened to join us when we had one of the worst olines ever.  He was nowhere near able to develop the way he needed to and we weren't going to wait.

 

So he ends up on a great oline with the best oline coach in the NFL.  It worked out for him....it wasn't happening here.  

Edited January 5, 2021 by Big Blitz

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's not factored into your equation..........but Addison was also a character signing.

 

Shaq,  even at his best,  was always something of a character compromise.

 

There was a time where they were so thin on defense(and so bad offensively) that they had to have guys like Shaq and Phillips around but they had choices last offseason and they chose wisely, IMO.     

 

 

Meh in previous years yes, but Frazier talked glowingly about the energy Shaq brought last year. I do think not picking up his option was a very smart move. It was a wakeup call to Shaq both as a player and as a pro. I just think Addison has been in decline for 3 years, that has continued this year and will continue again next year when he is 34. It was close between the two but I'd have kept Shaq, especially given wider age concerns at that defensive end position. If the other guy was Jerry Hughes age 23 I might be more inclined to go Mario, but he isn't. 

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, FireChans said:

The Beane school of thought appears to be emphasizing players with acceptable floors. 
 

When you acquire a Josh Norman or a Mario Addison or a Quentin Spain or etc etc, you know the kind of player you are getting at worst. Barring a physical cliff, they will be situational and rotational assets. Best case scenario, they steal a starting spot.

 

It’s the kind of team building strategy that helps you build a team without glaring weakness. But it’s a team building strategy that’s becomes much harder to execute once you start paying cornerstones.

 

Absolutely, and that is why it is really important they continue to take shots in the draft. There is nothing wrong with a "safe" draft like 2020 every now and again. AJ has come on nicely as the year has gone on, Moss has shown he can play, Gabe has been really good and you can certainly imagine a situation where he becomes their #2 as they transition away from Brown in a year or so time, and the one high ceiling punt they took on the kicker looks like it has worked out really well. But they can't afford to draft like that every year. They still need to take some chances on higher ceiling guys.... guys that fit the Allen, Edmunds, Oliver mould. That is harder when you are at the backend of the draft because the high ceiling guys that get down into the 20s and even the 30s generally have some more obvious question marks. But they need to be prepared to still take some shots even if it means missing on the odd pick. That has to be balanced with some of the "safe" types but that is the challenge for the front office now. I said before 2019 that the Bills had done the "easy bit". The tear down is the easy bit. They have now done the first hard bit which is build a contender. The really hard bit is keeping that contender re-stocked when you are paying your guys. I have faith in this front office (though really would love to see Joe Schoen stay) and I not doubting them, but it is an undeniable fact that it becomes much harder. And your ability to "cover up" mistakes with mid level free agents (some might say Williams has covered up the Ford pick at this stage) is going to be significantly reduced. 

[No_Matter_What]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Absolutely, and that is why it is really important they continue to take shots in the draft. There is nothing wrong with a "safe" draft like 2020 every now and again. AJ has come on nicely as the year has gone on, Moss has shown he can play, Gabe has been really good and you can certainly imagine a situation where he becomes their #2 as they transition away from Brown in a year or so time, and the one high ceiling punt they took on the kicker looks like it has worked out really well. But they can't afford to draft like that every year. They still need to take some chances on higher ceiling guys.... guys that fit the Allen, Edmunds, Oliver mould. That is harder when you are at the backend of the draft because the high ceiling guys that get down into the 20s and even the 30s generally have some more obvious question marks. But they need to be prepared to still take some shots even if it means missing on the odd pick. That has to be balanced with some of the "safe" types but that is the challenge for the front office now. I said before 2019 that the Bills had done the "easy bit". The tear down is the easy bit. They have now done the first hard bit which is build a contender. The really hard bit is keeping that contender re-stocked when you are paying your guys. I have faith in this front office (though really would love to see Joe Schoen stay) and I not doubting them, but it is an undeniable fact that it becomes much harder. And your ability to "cover up" mistakes with mid level free agents (some might say Williams has covered up the Ford pick at this stage) is going to be significantly reduced. 

 

Can you name some examples of possible shots in 2020 draft? I mean guys who were actually available at the time we took AJ, Zach and Gabe and you'd consider them good but risky picks with lower floors higher ceilings?

 

I understand your sentiment but am just curios how it translates to 2020 draft in your opinion.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

 

Can you name some examples of possible shots in 2020 draft? I mean guys who were actually available at the time we took AJ, Zach and Gabe and you'd consider them good but risky picks with lower floors higher ceilings?

 

I understand your sentiment but am just curios how it translates to 2020 draft in your opinion.

 

It's a fair question.... so I think Denzel Mims and Kristian Fulton are the two that immediately jump to mind in round 2. I didn't actually have Mims graded that far ahead of Gabe but I think there is a higher ceiling there. Fulton's rookie year has been interrupted by injuries and covid (he has been on IR and the COVID list) but I still think his ceiling is as a really good corner in this league. Jeremy Chinn definitely counts as well. He was a boom or bust type but has been excellent as a rookie in Carolina. Looking at round 3 it is harder... the guys I'd put in that category - Gallimore, Lewis, Blackmon all went in the picks just before us... and there is nobody I'd rather have picked than Gabe in round 4. Gabe is probably as high a ceiling as you are getting in round 4 of the draft in all honestly. I suppose I was seeing that more in the context of his ceiling vs the other receivers in that class. But Gabe was a great pick and to be honest I'd have had no issue if they'd taken Gabe in the 3rd. I had him graded there. 

 

It isn't to criticise any of the picks we made this past year really. It is just to say that you have to be willing to strike out on a bust or two to really shoot at a ceiling. Working out how and when to do that is the tricky bit. You can't do it every pick, that isn't a good strategy either.... you have to spot the right opportunity to do it. 

[JMF2006]

Like I said about Sammy in another thread...I trust their player evaluations.

 

They may get it wrong once in a while but they get it right most of the time...just look where this team is.

 

You can't get much righter than 13-3 in your 4th year

7 hours ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

At the time, Teller was still developing and was the odd man out.  As you point out getting a pick for him was a good move.  Teller is a good run blocker but still struggles with pass protection.  He's also missed some time with injuries.  In the overall scheme of things, I'm okay with the way it worked out for the Bills.

 

Boatanchor has been playing real well at LG.....Wyatt who?  

 

I agree they kept the right guy.

Edited January 5, 2021 by JMF2006

[GymShorts84]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Sure they do.........Stevie was a pig in sheeeee-it with this dysfunctional franchise.

 

There have been some doozies over the years..........Moulds quitting in Miami......Phillips back-to-back personal fouls more recently.........many more...........but SJ13 getting an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty in NE after Gailey had pleaded with him not to do his dumb celebrations.......and basically forcing Chan to bench him and the team then collapsing and blowing a big lead..........that might have been the most absurd case of player selfishness in Bills history.

 

But some people loved the irreverence because they think rules are stupid.

Well, some rules are stupid but I understand your logic. 
 

I think you are really proving the importance of McDermott’s process and culture. We’ve had talent on the team but rarely a talented team. His ability to implement his system and get then organization to buy in is amazing. 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, GymShorts84 said:

Well, some rules are stupid but I understand your logic. 
 

I think you are really proving the importance of McDermott’s process and culture. We’ve had talent on the team but rarely a talented team. His ability to implement his system and get then organization to buy in is amazing. 

 

 

Yeah it's been tried before and proven difficult to pull off without talent so I had my doubts they could get it done with the approach they used and new that it was going to take longer to get to SB contender status this way than the way the Rams did it.

 

It's easy to just get rid of all of the players who have leverage(young stars recently paid or pending free agents) and leave yourself with a roster of players who really need this job the way they did in 2017. 

 

It's another thing to then actually execute the plan long enough for the roster to catch up talent-wise.   He and Beane have done that.   I like the love approach.   That is a lot more individual work than the do-your-job Belichick approach but if you can pull it off it has legs with this generation of athletes and it's easier to root for.

 

Even worked to their advantage with guys like Shaq and Phillips who are a bit immature to be ideal for the longer term goals in mind.......you can let them leave and call it a cap issue and no hard feelings.    

 

Of course no amount of process and culture works without the stud QB because you can't string together seasons like 2018........but that's kind of a given in the NFL.

 

 

[thenorthremembers]

Beane made the right decision.   They got more out of the players they brought in, and I mean that in terms of production and availability.   Really loved Phillips as a Bill but his 2019 Season was a bit of an anomaly. 

[BADOLBILZ]

13 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

This thread is amazing.  

 

Stevie Johnson was a 7th round pick and somehow was able to beat one of the great CBs of his generation on a consistent basis.  And he was a loser?  First Bill to ever have 3 1000 yard seasons in a row - not Reed or Moulds.  Had a 1000 yard season the year after signing his big contract.  Hardly took his money and quit. The next season he had EJ Manuel as QB

 

Beane is the same guy that signed a guy that quit at halftime.  They all make mistakes.

 

Facts are a terrible thing...

 

 

 

 

Yes, SJ13 was a player who set a bad example by putting self promotion and emotion above team goals.   In doing so he put himself in tough situations with his loud mouth that put pressure on him that he then couldn't handle in games and lead to key mistakes/drops.    

 

He also didn't keep himself in top condition and was subsequently constantly bothered by soft tissue injuries that compounded and prematurely shortened his career.

 

People cite his 1,000 yard receiving seasons but they were mostly possible because he had a platform on a losing team where he could play undisciplined and get away with it.   Most of the job of anyone on the football field, be it refs or cornerbacks,  is anticipating what will happen so that you are close enough to do your job right at the moment of truth.    SJ13 free-lanced and having the freedom to do that made it MUCH easier for him to get open.        

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

I miss Jordan Phillips, and from the looks of it, he misses the Bills....