Figured out why I feel amazing as a fan currently... Sean McDermott is an elite head coach.

[prissythecat]

On 11/30/2020 at 12:19 PM, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Belichick
Tomlin
Vrabel
Reid
Payton
Shanahan

 

These are the best coaches in the NFL... They either have next-level smarts or an elite ability to motivate players to perform.

 

McDermott is a solid playoff coach, but not a championship coach, I fear... So Bills fans are like, "We're 8-3! Enjoy it!" But I see a frustrating period of good-but-not-good-enough on the horizon for the foreseeable future.

 

And that's depressing. I am absolutely not of the "Hey, it's Buffalo; at least we're winning" type of mentality. It's championships or nothing. That is the life goal. And with McDermott signing a long-term contract, I almost feel as hopeless as I would if we sucked. If we sucked, at least there would be hope of striking coaching gold on an imminent hire. In this case, though, I feel like we'll just be a solid playoff team for the next many years, but not elite enough to win it all.

 

Before reading through your post,  I thought you may have been depressed because you were constipated.

[Don Otreply]

16 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They were effective enough yesterday against a Chargers team that is just unreal at making mistakes late in games...........but turnover stats are as reliable of a predictor as any.........you lose MOST games where you are -2.

 

And the Bills are also the most scored on second half team in the entire NFL this year and the second most penalized.

 

Those let downs and mistakes are not reflective of the meticulous McDermott.  

 

Remember.........the context of this branch of the discussion is why Vrabel had stood out in big games..........and why McD struggles in them.

 

McD is 1-6 vs Belichick and 0-2 in playoffs.    

 

He's a last second Cam Newton fumble from 0-9 in what I would argue are his 9 highest leverage games as a Bill.

 

I don't think he and his players are on the same page the way Belichick and Vrabel(and increasingly Flores) are...........the Bills players don't entirely trust the process and it hurts them even more in emotionally charged matchups...........which is  probably NATURAL when you as a HC haven't proven somehow or somewhere that you help tilt the scale for your team in big games.

 

 

Concerning Belichick, What was his record in his fourth year as a head coach???  Iirc he was getting his azs kicked left and right, and was sporting a losing record, and was not thought of near as highly at that point in his career as McDermott is presently..., apples to apples is always nice... just sayin.. 👍

 

Go Bills!!!

Edited December 2, 2020 by Don Otreply

[buffalo2218]

On 11/30/2020 at 11:19 AM, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Belichick
Tomlin
Vrabel
Reid
Payton
Shanahan

 

These are the best coaches in the NFL... They either have next-level smarts or an elite ability to motivate players to perform.

 

McDermott is a solid playoff coach, but not a championship coach, I fear... So Bills fans are like, "We're 8-3! Enjoy it!" But I see a frustrating period of good-but-not-good-enough on the horizon for the foreseeable future.

 

And that's depressing. I am absolutely not of the "Hey, it's Buffalo; at least we're winning" type of mentality. It's championships or nothing. That is the life goal. And with McDermott signing a long-term contract, I almost feel as hopeless as I would if we sucked. If we sucked, at least there would be hope of striking coaching gold on an imminent hire. In this case, though, I feel like we'll just be a solid playoff team for the next many years, but not elite enough to win it all.

Out of all those coaches listed, how many of those are in their 4th year? Maybe Vrabel? Shanahan? Tomlin inherited a team that Bill Cowher built. Belichek wasn't exactly lighting things up in Cleveland. Reid I would say was naturally a good HC. Payton? Cmon dude, what you're leaving out is the majority of the coaches listed here had a TON of time to right the ship. In Tomlin's case, Pitt's FO did him a world of favors. But let's face it, Roethlisberger won't be around much longer, then what? We saw how good Tomlin was without him last year. Bellichek? The Pats are below .500 for the first time since I don't know when. Reid is still the best of all in the league IMO. It's only fair to be patient with what we have, because it will take longer than 4 years. Just the same tho, things are looking up. Rome wasn't built in a day

[BillsVet]

12 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

Teams out defense good/elite offenses all of the time - the outcome is just different.  You are not holding them to 3 points for a game, but if you force them to try and be methodical and run more than pass - you increase the likelihood you can win the game.  
 

There are many ways to win, but the most important is complementary play between your offense and Defense.  As @GunnerBill said the defensive game plan was not bad (they needed to make a few plays at key times), but to me the lack of offense that game was the issue.  If you are going to play a conservative defensive scheme - you need to balance that with a ball control offense and points.  The running game was blah, but Josh also struggled on short passes to keep drives alive.  
 

Better offense forces KC to open up and that plays into the scheme you were running on defense.

 

The KC game is being quibbled over at this point and never have I expected any defense to hold a KC offense to a score or less.  Bottom line is they lost and that's the point of this thread because: Buffalo comes up small in key games.    

 

It's reasonable to consider after recent games whether this team is much better than a Divisional Round participant without advancing.  And this is the crux of the issue.   

 

We're going to find out where this team is against the big boys when they host Pittsburgh in 11 days.      

 

[BillsVet]

2 hours ago, Max Fischer said:

I’d argue McDermott is as good as these two. None of them have had long term success yet. 

Vrabel 
Shanahan 

 

Vrabel - 2 playoff wins last season.  After 2 seasons as a HC.  

Shanahan - 2 playoff wins last season and a SB appearance. After 3 seasons as a HC. 

 

McD -  0-2 in the playoffs without advancing past the Wild Card Round after 3 seasons as a HC.  

 

One of these is not like the others.  

[NoHuddleKelly12]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

The KC game is being quibbled over at this point and never have I expected any defense to hold a KC offense to a score or less.  Bottom line is they lost and that's the point of this thread because: Buffalo comes up small in key games.    

 

It's reasonable to consider after recent games whether this team is much better than a Divisional Round participant without advancing.  And this is the crux of the issue.   

 

We're going to find out where this team is against the big boys when they host Pittsburgh in 11 days.      

 

Except we were also told on these same boards that the Cowboys game last year or the Steelers, or the Rams or the Raiders or the Seahawks this year, were all "litmus tests" to see where we were really at, and yet despite passing those tests, the goal posts unfailingly keep moving. Which is fine, I don't doubt the Bills will be peaking at the right time going into the playoffs, where I wouldn't want to play us if I'm a D coordinator, but we'll see.   

Edited December 2, 2020 by NoHuddleKelly12

[BillsVet]

Just now, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Except we were also told on these same boards that the Cowboys game last year or the Steelers, or the Rams or the Raiders or the Seahawks this year, were all "litmus tests" to see where we were really at, and yet despite passing those tests, the goal posts unfailingly keep moving. Which is fine, I don't doubt the Bills will be peaking at the right time going into the playoffs, where I wouldn't want to play us if I'm a D coordinator, but we'll see.   

 

2019 is long gone.  Any results-oriented fan expected to see them make the playoffs last year, particularly after they started 6-2.   

 

2020, OTOH, has been all about winning in the playoffs.  Trading for Diggs, a 4th year of McBeane's roster along with the improvement of Allen means you expect post-season success.  And there was a 4-0 start to boot.  

 

Plenty of teams are winning without the 4 year build up.  SF was in the SB after 3 years with Shanahan/Lynch.  Vrabel was in the AFC Championship in his 2nd season with a new QB.  McVay was in the SB his 2nd season as a HC.  Should Buffalo not be held to a similar standard? If so, losing in the WC round of the playoffs is not acceptable given the investment of draft, UFA capital and time.    

[Real McClappy]

2 hours ago, buffalo2218 said:

Out of all those coaches listed, how many of those are in their 4th year? Maybe Vrabel? Shanahan? Tomlin inherited a team that Bill Cowher built. Belichek wasn't exactly lighting things up in Cleveland. Reid I would say was naturally a good HC. Payton? Cmon dude, what you're leaving out is the majority of the coaches listed here had a TON of time to right the ship. In Tomlin's case, Pitt's FO did him a world of favors. But let's face it, Roethlisberger won't be around much longer, then what? We saw how good Tomlin was without him last year. Bellichek? The Pats are below .500 for the first time since I don't know when. Reid is still the best of all in the league IMO. It's only fair to be patient with what we have, because it will take longer than 4 years. Just the same tho, things are looking up. Rome wasn't built in a day

It's pretty straight forward as you posted. I do get there is more to it but 3 of the coaches have 3 of the best QBs to ever play the game in Brady, Ben and Drew.

 

Vrabel and Shanahan have long ways to go still to become "great" coaches.

I like Reid,  he was fired for a reason in Philly and on the hot seat even while doing well with Alex Smith for the same Playoff struggles in KC. Now he gets Mahomes and wins a SB and praised as a top 2 coach in the NFL when so many TBD posters and media experts just would say he sucked because of prior playoffs struggles. 

 

Having a Stud QB, above average Oline, strong GM and solid HC are 4 of the most important puzzle pieces/building blocks to long term success for any NFL team.

 

McD, Beane and Allen are on the brink to great things at this rate. You either see it or you don't and make knuckle headed threads after winning NFL games. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Real McNasty

[BillsVet]

23 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I don't think Vrabel is a great coach..........but he does an extraordinary job of getting his players to assume his personality/mindset.    So in big games they are galvanized and a united front.   It's something Belichick is GREAT at.  

 

There can't be many better coaches in the NFL from Monday thru Saturday than McD............but try as he might the team is always pulling against his leash.

 

I mean..........in that Chargers game in the 4th quarter it felt like they were the anti-McD's.........and McD was watching from afar without much he could do to stop it.

 

I think the only way to correct that is for him to win some playoff games and garner that last level of trust from the players.

 

 

Agreed.  There's a lot of talk about leadership these days, but in the NFL HC's are not coordinators and as such cannot be completely focused on X's and O's.  At the HC level it's about generalship and the off-season/training camp weeks are about building a foundation for when things get difficult.  You can't always out X and O your opponent.      

 

Lombardi admitted as such back in the 60s and those Packers teams were a reflection of the HC.  He got them to play that way, but of course had talent.  I remember seeing a picture from the sideline from behind where Lombardi's hands are clasped behind his back.  And the photo was captioned about how at that point, there was nothing left to do but bank on everything done before those critical moments.  I think that was in the Maraniss book.  

 

I'm not demanding McD be exactly like Lombardi, just sharing @BADOLBILZ's observation that Buffalo doesn't reflect their HC in a similar fashion.  The penalties and showing up small in big games point to how he he's not reaching them.  

 

McD tried to instill "the process" as a way of winning them over, to trust in him, but that's harder to do when you're not winning.  Again, it was light years ago, but I'm sure when Lombardi was winning, even the most hardened personality toward VL knew what he expected and wouldn't deviate from.  Only winning can accomplish this.  

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, buffalo2218 said:

Out of all those coaches listed, how many of those are in their 4th year? Maybe Vrabel? Shanahan? Tomlin inherited a team that Bill Cowher built. Belichek wasn't exactly lighting things up in Cleveland. Reid I would say was naturally a good HC. Payton? Cmon dude, what you're leaving out is the majority of the coaches listed here had a TON of time to right the ship. In Tomlin's case, Pitt's FO did him a world of favors. But let's face it, Roethlisberger won't be around much longer, then what? We saw how good Tomlin was without him last year. Bellichek? The Pats are below .500 for the first time since I don't know when. Reid is still the best of all in the league IMO. It's only fair to be patient with what we have, because it will take longer than 4 years. Just the same tho, things are looking up. Rome wasn't built in a day

 

Tomlin has the 6th highest career winning percentage for coaches with more than 200 games at .658.  His worst record as a head coach has been 8-8(3 times). He has won double digit games 9 times out of 14 seasons.  Pretty sure while the FO might have helped, he is a damn good coach.

[Max Fischer]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Vrabel - 2 playoff wins last season.  After 2 seasons as a HC.  

Shanahan - 2 playoff wins last season and a SB appearance. After 3 seasons as a HC. 

 

McD -  0-2 in the playoffs without advancing past the Wild Card Round after 3 seasons as a HC.  

 

One of these is not like the others.  

 

The one constant in life is not all situations are alike. It's unimaginative and short-sighted to believe that each of these coaches had the same or even similar set of variables.  

 

 

[Max Fischer]

22 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

Tomlin has the 6th highest career winning percentage for coaches with more than 200 games at .658.  His worst record as a head coach has been 8-8(3 times). He has won double digit games 9 times out of 14 seasons.  Pretty sure while the FO might have helped, he is a damn good coach.

 

Tomlin is a good coach but he was handed a franchise QB and a team that won the Super Bowl two season beforehand. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, HOUSE said:

We could trade McDermott for a bag of donuts, a hot pretzel and a hot dog

 

Will this proposal have the same beneficial result as the trade proposal for Klein?

[BillsVet]

47 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:

The one constant in life is not all situations are alike. It's unimaginative and short-sighted to believe that each of these coaches had the same or even similar set of variables.  

 

 Quibbling 101.

  

[teef]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

 Quibbling 101.

  

why ignore the reality right?  petty101.

[GoBills808]

4 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Vrabel - 2 playoff wins last season.  After 2 seasons as a HC.  

Shanahan - 2 playoff wins last season and a SB appearance. After 3 seasons as a HC. 

 

McD -  0-2 in the playoffs without advancing past the Wild Card Round after 3 seasons as a HC.  

 

One of these is not like the others.  

Yeah one of them had to go his first two years against the most dominant HC/QB combo of all time

[BillsVet]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yeah one of them had to go his first two years against the most dominant HC/QB combo of all time

 

More Quibbling.  Class is filling up fast today. 

[fridge]

I've been impressed with Beane and how he turned the team around so quickly. As long as he is here I'm not worried at all.

 

As for McDermott, it's hard to argue with his success so far, but I do think he takes a back seat to some of the great coaches. When we lose it can get ugly some times. I don't have the math in front of me but some of our biggest losses in the last decade have come under McD.

 

One more thing that annoys me is the second half adjustments. It seems like every single week since he's been here the other teams is able to make offensive and defensive adjustments that catch us off guard. It's obviously more nuanced than that, but that seems more indicative of coaching strategy than perhaps even wins and losses.

 

All in all though, it's clear he's the most "together" coach we've had in 20 years and I think aside from some in-game clock management stuff, questionable challenges, and that famous timeout he takes to see what the offense comes out in, I can't really complain.

Edited December 2, 2020 by fridge

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

More Quibbling.  Class is filling up fast today. 

Right, context is for losers!

[BADOLBILZ]

33 minutes ago, teef said:

why ignore the reality right?  

 

Yep 

 

0-2 in playoffs

1-6 versus chief rival

 

I am looking forward to McD doing what it takes to engineer a second defeat of the Patriots and an extended playoff run.......but I'm not a Bills player who has to trust the process........and to those guys perception is reality.