John Brown to IR

[Mr. WEO]

57 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yet another rough passing day without John Brown.

 

Speed is that critical.

 

With Brown having 3 injuries and going into the final year of his contract at age 31 in 2021 a very fast deep threat is probably need #1 for this team in the offseason.

 

They haven't been able to mask the deficiency when they don't have that deep threat. 

 

Diggs is a WR1 but he's unfortunately not that electric guy who can either catch a short pass and elude tackles or get over the top with any consistency.

 

 

 

The Bills ran for 172 yards!  Come on!

 

Davis had 3 catches  for 79 yards.  

 

Cheeel Winston...

 

[BADOLBILZ]

21 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

The Bills ran for 172 yards!  Come on!

 

Davis had 3 catches  for 79 yards.  

 

Cheeel Winston...

 

 

 

That's box score scouting.........one of his catches was a jump ball that only gets thrown because it was a free play and another was a TD pass from Beasley on a trick play..........he wasn't that involved in the regular passing offense.

 

When Brown isn't in there they struggle to create space for Diggs and Beasley.............not struggle like 2017 or 2018...........but struggle relative to what it's going to take to be a real top 5 scoring offense.........as they've often look when Brown has been healthy enough to play.

 

Right now they are 11th in the NFL in scoring...........decent............but not where you should endeavor to be with a talent like Allen or where you want to be when your defense isn't dominant.

[BADOLBILZ]

21 hours ago, Simon said:

 Not when half the secondary is keyed on him nearly every down.

He might as well be wearing a bell for as much attention as he's getting.

 

Well he had Adam Thielen opposite him the season that he had 1,000 yards on 100 grabs..........that 10.0 ypc was the lowest such number EVER by a WR that reached 1,000 yards.

 

He's been much more of a possession guy than an explosive play guy in his career...........last year was the sole exception.............this year he is back down at 11.8 ypc.

 

He is a kind of WR1.........but with an arm like Allen in tow you really want a big time field stretcher.

 

And to take full advantage of Diggs I think you NEED it.     

 

 

[appoo]

Think it’s time to invest in a true X.  Chris Olave  might be around in the late 20s, and so might Rashod Bateman. Shame that both Davonte Smith and Jaylen Waddle won’t there 

23 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yet another rough passing day without John Brown.

 

Speed is that critical.

 

With Brown having 3 injuries and going into the final year of his contract at age 31 in 2021 a very fast deep threat is probably need #1 for this team in the offseason.

 

They haven't been able to mask the deficiency when they don't have that deep threat. 

 

Diggs is a WR1 but he's unfortunately not that electric guy who can either catch a short pass and elude tackles or get over the top with any consistency.

 

Diggs is perhaps the best Z in the NFL. Problem is that without John Brown there’s no reliable X who can pose as a perimeter threat who’s gonna draw a safety. There’s a few ways you can do that. You can do it with size and contested catch ability (Hopkins and Allen Robinson and Mike Evans), or you can do it with pure speed (John Brown, Tyreke Hill).

Without Smoke, it’s down to Gabe Davis, and as of yet he’s not earned the respect of NFL safeties.  If the Bills are worried about Brown’s speed for the rest of the season, then it might be time to start targeting Davis deep a lot more, in the hopes of him making plays and drawing more safety attention in the game plan. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That's box score scouting.........one of his catches was a jump ball that only gets thrown because it was a free play and another was a TD pass from Beasley on a trick play..........he wasn't that involved in the regular passing offense.

 

When Brown isn't in there they struggle to create space for Diggs and Beasley.............not struggle like 2017 or 2018...........but struggle relative to what it's going to take to be a real top 5 scoring offense.........as they've often look when Brown has been healthy enough to play.

 

Right now they are 11th in the NFL in scoring...........decent............but not where you should endeavor to be with a talent like Allen or where you want to be when your defense isn't dominant.

The point was they were running the ball.  
 

I did point out that Davis had 3 cases, so no, not a big part of the Offense.  But Brown isn’t dependable at this point, given this nagging injury.  They can win without him—they’ve done it in 2 of the 3 games he was out.  They won when he had zero catches.  They lost when he had 6 cases.  

[Hebert19]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Well he had Adam Thielen opposite him the season that he had 1,000 yards on 100 grabs..........that 10.0 ypc was the lowest such number EVER by a WR that reached 1,000 yards.

 

He's been much more of a possession guy than an explosive play guy in his career...........last year was the sole exception.............this year he is back down at 11.8 ypc.

 

He is a kind of WR1.........but with an arm like Allen in tow you really want a big time field stretcher.

 

And to take full advantage of Diggs I think you NEED it.     

 

 

Well again.   I don't blame this all on brown or what diggs brings...I think the amount of zone we are seeing is dictating things and we haven't figured out how to scheme around it yet. 

[appoo]

27 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

Well again.   I don't blame this all on brown or what diggs brings...I think the amount of zone we are seeing is dictating things and we haven't figured out how to scheme around it yet. 

Diggs is most valuable to this offense as someone who gets open in the intermediate whenever he wants to. He can be used as a deep threat but doing that takes away his biggest strength, which is his route running. 
 

that route running is what got the Bills that last TD against Arizona, and if he’s playing a more downfield threat role, that’s probably Beasley running that route.

 

Basically, Diggs is a Swiss Army knife, and he’s got a pretty good long knife in his set,  But it’s not a machete, and when you try to use it as a machete you lose all those other tools he brings 

 

it’s also not something you can really scheme around. There’s no reason to account for a deep threat that’s not Stefon Diggs, it’s really that simple. You can drift over a safety or linebacker towards Diggs, and Allen is left with Beasley, an underwhelming TE, or Gabe Davis

 

We know the TE ain’t it, but I think Davis needs to be given a shot to show what he can do deep

Edited December 1, 2020 by appoo

[BADOLBILZ]

34 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

The point was they were running the ball.  
 

I did point out that Davis had 3 cases, so no, not a big part of the Offense.  But Brown isn’t dependable at this point, given this nagging injury.  They can win without him—they’ve done it in 2 of the 3 games he was out.  They won when he had zero catches.  They lost when he had 6 cases.  

 

 

And despite being able to run the ball they struggled to pass it...........Allen averaged just 6.5 yards per attempt,  turned the ball over twice and the Bills didn't have an answer when they dropped back to pass.

 

But I was talking about the bigger picture.......obviously........hence discussing need beyond this season etc..

 

The objective is to win a Super Bowl very soon.

 

If the objective were to just be a wildcard team or the 4th seed division winner.....then yup..........they can contend in that range with what they have.

 

And yeah I agree that they can't trust that John Brown will come back at any point or be what he was last season or at the outset of this one.........this season their best option is to just hope Brown gets healthy.

 

Needs to be addressed because you get points in the passing game..........and the leaders in ppg read like the Vegas odds favorites to win the SB.

[BADOLBILZ]

58 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

Well again.   I don't blame this all on brown or what diggs brings...I think the amount of zone we are seeing is dictating things and we haven't figured out how to scheme around it yet. 

 

 

Playmaking ability is just as important against zone defenses.

 

For example..........Brown is excellent at catching the ball in front of the sticks and making a sudden move and getting low/diving and gaining those extra few yards.

 

How many times yesterday did Diggs catch the ball 2 yards in front of those sticks and get zero RAC?  

 

He's a type of WR1.........but much closer to a Jarvis Landry than a Julio Jones.

 

Unfortunately the things he's not are elusive with the ball in his hands or an exceptional deep threat.

 

If your offense can get the secondary playing beyond the sticks.........that is where Diggs can do volume damage.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, appoo said:

Think it’s time to invest in a true X.  Chris Olave  might be around in the late 20s, and so might Rashod Bateman. Shame that both Davonte Smith and Jaylen Waddle won’t there 

Diggs is perhaps the best Z in the NFL. Problem is that without John Brown there’s no reliable X who can pose as a perimeter threat who’s gonna draw a safety. There’s a few ways you can do that. You can do it with size and contested catch ability (Hopkins and Allen Robinson and Mike Evans), or you can do it with pure speed (John Brown, Tyreke Hill).

Without Smoke, it’s down to Gabe Davis, and as of yet he’s not earned the respect of NFL safeties.  If the Bills are worried about Brown’s speed for the rest of the season, then it might be time to start targeting Davis deep a lot more, in the hopes of him making plays and drawing more safety attention in the game plan. 

 

 

They are going to have to get the ball deep to Davis and hope it works............but when they have tried at various times this season he hasn't been able to separate.

 

The contested catch is good to have on film but even JAGs get those once in a while.......do that and take it to the house while the DB is laying in a pile and maybe you've done something........but simply winning a deep ball is not going to change how a defense attacks him.

 

But even if they do intend to throw him the ball deep more they may not find the time they have to do so with Brown in the lineup.........because Davis doesn't provide you with what Brown can do.............which is to also the ability to take a short pass and burn the defense..........which serves to nullify pass rush..........which then creates more time to go downfield later.

 

I don't know what the actual numbers are but I am pretty sure Allen's "time to pass" is much higher with Brown in there than without.

 

The Chargers were basically just attacking Allen and taking their chances that the Bills WR's couldn't do much with the short throws.........and they couldn't.

 

A healthy Brown matters A LOT.

[Mr. WEO]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

And despite being able to run the ball they struggled to pass it...........Allen averaged just 6.5 yards per attempt,  turned the ball over twice and the Bills didn't have an answer when they dropped back to pass.

 

But I was talking about the bigger picture.......obviously........hence discussing need beyond this season etc..

 

The objective is to win a Super Bowl very soon.

 

If the objective were to just be a wildcard team or the 4th seed division winner.....then yup..........they can contend in that range with what they have.

 

And yeah I agree that they can't trust that John Brown will come back at any point or be what he was last season or at the outset of this one.........this season their best option is to just hope Brown gets healthy.

 

Needs to be addressed because you get points in the passing game..........and the leaders in ppg read like the Vegas odds favorites to win the SB.

 

They can win a SB without Brown--beyond this season he may not even be on the roster.  This offense doesn't hinge on him.

[Billsfan1972]

It's quite telling how the Bills play without Brown.  He's a good receiver, but for some reason he seems crucial to the Bills success.....  He wasn't there for the NE & LAC game & played injured vs. KC (and that bad drop on the third play of the game).  These are the only games where Allen threw for <200.  

 

Only game where he was hobbled/out where they were successful passing was the Rams.

 

Hard to believe he is that important, but the stats seem to support it.

[T master]

On 11/28/2020 at 3:00 PM, BillsMafi$ said:

you mean Kumerow 

 

Where did this guy come from & what has he shown to beat out who ever else in on the practice squad ?

 

I haven't seen him or heard of him making any catches must be good at something but i just haven't heard anything maybe he's their secret weapon .

 

But JB is definitely missed will he be able to come back or is his injury season ending ? 

Edited December 1, 2020 by T master

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

They can win a SB without Brown--beyond this season he may not even be on the roster.  This offense doesn't hinge on him.

 

 

I don't believe they can win it without him this season.....but with him they at least have a punchers chance.     They won't score enough without what he brings to their offense.

 

I know people think 27 is a lot of points but 26.5 is 14th in the league and 27.5 is 9th...........it's only "good".

 

How important is being a top 6 scoring team in the NFL?  

 

This year the top 3 seeds in both conferences are in the top 6 in scoring.

 

But I do think John Brown is a near lock to be on the roster next season.

 

I am not exactly sure why you disagreed with my original post........you are telling me things I already know..........they need to act like he WON'T be back because he is going to be 31 and will be coming off an injury RIDDLED season and is in the last year of his deal anyway.

 

They have a number of areas to improve on.........as do most teams, that's parity..........but the position where one good player would make the most difference is there........we've seen what his presence does for the offense as a whole.

 

   

[BBills_88]

Let's see what Kumerow got

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I don't believe they can win it without him this season.....but with him they at least have a punchers chance.     They won't score enough without what he brings to their offense.

 

I know people think 27 is a lot of points but 26.5 is 14th in the league and 27.5 is 9th...........it's only "good".

 

How important is being a top 6 scoring team in the NFL?  

 

This year the top 3 seeds in both conferences are in the top 6 in scoring.

 

But I do think John Brown is a near lock to be on the roster next season.

 

I am not exactly sure why you disagreed with my original post........you are telling me things I already know..........they need to act like he WON'T be back because he is going to be 31 and will be coming off an injury RIDDLED season and is in the last year of his deal anyway.

 

They have a number of areas to improve on.........as do most teams, that's parity..........but the position where one good player would make the most difference is there........we've seen what his presence does for the offense as a whole.

 

   

 

 

The Defense is what will be the deciding factor in how far they go this year, not Brown.

 

He's a good #2 but this Offense does not turn on him, they are hardly doomed without him--this much is clear.  In fact, losing Beasely would be a far far bigger blow.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

The Defense is what will be the deciding factor in how far they go this year, not Brown.

 

He's a good #2 but this Offense does not turn on him, they are hardly doomed without him--this much is clear.  In fact, losing Beasely would be a far far bigger blow.

 

You're kinda' building a straw man here.

 

But fwiw.........Beasley and Diggs offer a lot of the same to your offense...........Diggs averages 11.8 ypr and Beasley 11.7 ypr.........Diggs is 36th in RAC and Beasley is 38th in RAC.

 

You can't get much closer than that.

 

So while it would be a big loss, not having Beasley doesn't sink your chain moving efforts. 

 

John Brown is a career 14.8 ypr guy..........as mentioned earlier in this thread he might be the best Z receiver in the NFL..........and he was by far the Bills best WR in 2019.

 

So I don't know where you've come up with this hyperbole about Beasley being "far, far" more important.

 

What having Brown does is push the defense beyond the sticks so Diggs' short receptions with zero RAC would be first downs instead of 2 yards shy...........that was the case early in the season when Diggs was catching first down after first down.

 

It helps Beasley get space too.......but he starts becoming real small target 20 yards down the field...........where Diggs at 6' with long arms is still a viable option downfield if they decide to flip he and Browns' routes.

 

So give me a healthy Brown and Diggs every time.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by BADOLBILZ

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

The Defense is what will be the deciding factor in how far they go this year, not Brown.

 

He's a good #2 but this Offense does not turn on him, they are hardly doomed without him--this much is clear.  In fact, losing Beasely would be a far far bigger blow.

 

There will be multiple deciding factors. Yes, the defense has to continue getting back to what we expected. BUT, Brown affects everything else that happens on offense. The threat of his speed affects the coverage and openings for everything else in the passing game. When the passing game is effective it is easier for us to run the ball. 

 

Brown means a LOT to this offense and I hope he gets 100% healthy for a late run! 

 

EDIT: I will say I like some of the IR and other personnel rules that resulted from Covid. Relax the IR rules and expand the practice squads. That seems to be good for everyone. SOMETHING good has to come of this Covid mess, right? 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Augie

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

You're kinda' building a straw man here.

 

But fwiw.........Beasley and Diggs offer a lot of the same to your offense...........Diggs averages 11.8 ypr and Beasley 11.7 ypr.........Diggs is 36th in RAC and Beasley is 38th in RAC.

 

You can't get much closer than that.

 

So while it would be a big loss, not having Beasley doesn't sink your chain moving efforts. 

 

John Brown is a career 14.8 ypr guy..........as mentioned earlier in this thread he might be the best Z receiver in the NFL..........and he was by far the Bills best WR in 2019.

 

So I don't know where you've come up with this hyperbole about Beasley being "far, far" more important.

 

What having Brown does is push the defense beyond the sticks so Diggs' short receptions with zero RAC would be first downs instead of 2 yards shy...........that was the case early in the season when Diggs was catching first down after first down.

 

It helps Beasley get space too.......but he starts becoming real small target 20 yards down the field...........where Diggs at 6'3" with long arms is still a viable option downfield if they decide to flip he and Browns' routes.

 

So give me a healthy Brown and Diggs every time.

 

 

Diggs is only 6 ft tall, but I agree with what you're saying. Brown is massive piece of the offense

 

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

You're kinda' building a straw man here.

 

But fwiw.........Beasley and Diggs offer a lot of the same to your offense...........Diggs averages 11.8 ypr and Beasley 11.7 ypr.........Diggs is 36th in RAC and Beasley is 38th in RAC.

 

You can't get much closer than that.

 

So while it would be a big loss, not having Beasley doesn't sink your chain moving efforts. 

 

John Brown is a career 14.8 ypr guy..........as mentioned earlier in this thread he might be the best Z receiver in the NFL..........and he was by far the Bills best WR in 2019.

 

So I don't know where you've come up with this hyperbole about Beasley being "far, far" more important.

 

What having Brown does is push the defense beyond the sticks so Diggs' short receptions with zero RAC would be first downs instead of 2 yards shy...........that was the case early in the season when Diggs was catching first down after first down.

 

It helps Beasley get space too.......but he starts becoming real small target 20 yards down the field...........where Diggs at 6' with long arms is still a viable option downfield if they decide to flip he and Browns' routes.

 

So give me a healthy Brown and Diggs every time.

 

 

 

Not any more--not this year.  He is slowed by injury.  He's had 2 1000 yard seasons in his career.  It's hard to argue he has been stretching D's all season.

 

Beasley isn't "hyperbole", just a fact.  In 3 more games, he has twice as many catches.  His catch % is 80 to Browns 60. Brown is a career 54% and Beasley is 70%.  Beasley already has 36 1st downs (Diggs has 40).

 

Beasley answers the bell every week.  He produces. He catches everything.  His lowest number of catches in a game is 4.  He's had 6 games with 7 or more catches--Brown has had 2 games with zero catches, 1 over 7.

 

Sure, a healthy Brown would be great down the stretch.  But clearly Beasley is more valuable to this Offense.