The Bills and Patrick Mahomes

[Doc]

16 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This is an interesting point.  I think he is a generational talent.  I've compared him to Elway and to Ben in terms size, strength, guts, pocket awareness. But he is a better student of the game.  No back stories in his way.  He is going to be field general to match Peyton. I believe it.

 

Yup.  With his leap this year, Josh is now the prototypical QB.

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This is an interesting point.  I think he is a generational talent.  I've compared him to Elway and to Ben in terms size, strength, guts, pocket awareness. But he is a better student of the game.  No back stories in his way.  He is going to be field general to match Peyton. I believe it. 

 

As for coaches, I do think it is possible for a coach to screw him up, but it would be pretty hard to do.  Rex might have just turned him loose without any quality coaching, let him run wild.  That could have developed a lot of bad habits. But generally I'd say you're right - most coaches would have been fine for him.

 

Still, I think Daboll has done a good job with him. 

 

See I think the sort of coach who'd have ruined Allen was a scheme over player guy. I actually think guys like McVay and Shanahan who are some of the top offensive minds in the NFL would not have been great fits for Josh. Not saying it would have been a disaster but don't think they were perfect fits to develop him. You play for them you have to play to the scheme and they are gonna run it plenty and ask you to make key throws. I have never thought that is Josh. He needs a Sean Peyton type who is willing to put the game in his QBs hands and design to his strengths (young Drew... lots of deep balls down the middle.... old Drew... lots of short outside throws to backs and possession receivers). 

 

So for example if the Bills had kept Rick Dennison or Greg Roman I don't think that would have been a good fit for Josh and could have ruined him. You needed someone who spotted early that Josh needed to be the star of his own show. And Rex for all his faults I think would have spotted that early. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by GunnerBill

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

I would argue his reputation is based off of endorsements by Bill Belichick and Nick Saban. 
 

I don’t think Allen’s development was exclusive of Daboll. I’ve worked with a few high level HS QBs and HS coaches and they rave about what Daboll does with his play calls... even dating back to last year. Basically how intricate the system is and how he’s constantly setting up for plays in future series. They love the route combinations. 
 

Now, is Daboll a HC candidate without Josh? Absolutely not. It’s a mutually beneficial relationship and more often than not the player does have more influence on the success of the pairing because if the players flames out then the coach carries part of the blame. They don’t often get another shot to develop players... whereas players can go somewhere else and a coach will take a chance at molding them. 
 

If your argument is that you need a franchise QB to have success as a coach, I agree with you. But it seems to be your argument is just that Daboll outright sucks... which is a piss poor argument. 

 

I was tremendously under-impressed when McDermott tapped Brian Daboll as his OC.  As others had pointed out - there were those stints as OC with the Browns,  Dolphins, and Chiefs.  Not much good to be seen there.  And, there were those stories about Daboll just lighting into Colt McCoy to a ridiculous extent.  Going back, some said that Daboll left NE after 2006 when Belicheck tapped McDaniels and not him as OC.  And the first year - it seemed as though coming into the season, Daboll didn't even have enough clout as OC to choose his own assistants, he got Teflon Juan and Boras and a bunch of McDermott's picks on the offensive side.  Then going into the season with Peterman as the starting QB?  A lot of WTF moments.  I thought the play design was too intricate at times and not structured around how defenses actually react, and the play calling was at times (IMO) inappropriate for down and distance. 

 

But then you'd see these glimpses, as against the Titans game (W) or the Houston game (L, after Allen went out injured and Peterman threw 2 picks) and then the game of Barkley's life against the Jets where it was "Wait, we can actually do these things? These plays can work?" 

 

It became clear that the quality of the players was a factor.  And in the last couple years as the players and the quality of play have improved, there are more and more plays that work and fewer whiskey tango foxtrot moments.

 

I think Allen and Daboll have been a case of synergistic development.  I think they both realized independently that they had to change, take a different approach, and do things differently to succeed in their respective jobs.  Just as Josh is obviously sincere in talking about how much he appreciates Coach Daboll "taking him under his wing", Daboll sounded very sincere when he was talking to a reporter about the way he relates to players as a coach and said something to the effect of "I"m very grateful to Josh...more than he knows". 

 

I don't think the influence of McDermott should be overlooked in all this, either.  I think McDermott may have weighed in at a couple of key junctures: laid it out for Josh "don't care where you were drafted,  either you take care of the football and follow your progressions or you're playing "Left Bench".  And laid it out for Daboll, we stay in control as coaches and if players aren't meeting our standard, we work with them to educate and teach, we don't scream at them or ream them out publicly.

 

I think they've both grown and changed - a lot.  And it's fun to watch.  And you're right, more and more from analysts and people who break down film, I hear praise for Daboll's play designs.  So "Daboll just sucks" is 100% weak sauce as an argument.

 

 

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Allen is Peyton Manning is one obvious place where your analogy fails.

 

And there are many more.

[BADOLBILZ]

19 minutes ago, Doc said:

Good coaches still need good players and vice versa.  Without Brady, Belicheat has a losing record as a HC. 

 

 

Which is a nothing point.

 

With 53 man rosters and the system designed to distribute talent fairly evenly good players are everywhere.

 

Yet Joe Gibbs wins SB's with Doug Williams and Mark Rypien and Parcells wins one with Jeff Hostetler........and Belichick wins one with a second year QB who wasn't very good......great coaching is often very evident on it's own merit.

 

And it's a joke to keep suggesting that Belichick *needed* Brady to not finish as anything but a career losing HC...........the FIRST SB they won Brady was a dink and dunk game manager who threw a grand total of 1 TD in the entire playoff and SB run.     

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Which is a nothing point.

 

With 53 man rosters and the system designed to distribute talent fairly evenly good players are everywhere.

 

Yet Joe Gibbs wins SB's with Doug Williams and Mark Rypien and Parcells wins one with Jeff Hostetler........and Belichick wins one with a second year QB who wasn't very good......great coaching is often very evident on it's own merit.

 

And it's a joke to keep suggesting that Belichick *needed* Brady to not finish as anything but a career losing HC...........the FIRST SB they won Brady was a dink and dunk game manager who threw a grand total of 1 TD in the entire playoff and SB run.     

I think Doc said good players, not good QB’s. BB had lots of talent on the 2001 team.

[BigDingus]

On 11/25/2020 at 9:11 AM, DrDawkinstein said:

 

And thank god Terry made the right choice of staying out of the way and letting the football people do their jobs. Maybe he should take more of that stance on the hockey side.

 

I guess I should have said "Was never going to happen as long as it was up to McD", and it was. Luckily.

 

Wait what? "Thank God"... as if drafting Mahomes would've been some nightmare lol

 

Yes, a transcendent QB that is going to be our biggest obstacle for years to come if we even want to make it to a SB, would've been horrible to have on our side instead of against us. 

[BigDingus]

Unfortunately, the more success Mahomes has, the more certain fans will dig in and insist the Bills made the right move passing on him. 

 

You can tell by Mahomes play that he's too flat out talented to have been a failure, Andy Reid being his coach or not. This guy put up 700+ passing yards in a game against Oklahoma, he just has incredible skills. 

 

All that really matters though is can Josh deliver us 1 Super Bowl win. Mahomes already has one ring, very likely could end up dominating for a decade + and win several more. But do we  NEED several super wins? Imo, no.

 

One win is more than enough to consider Allen a RESOUNDING success. No matter what records Mahomes goes on to break or how many SB wins, MVP awards, etc he gets, 1 Lombardi Trophy brought to Buffalo = Allen a great pick, worth every cent. 

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

Unfortunately, the more success Mahomes has, the more certain fans will dig in and insist the Bills made the right move passing on him. 

 

You can tell by Mahomes play that he's too flat out talented to have been a failure, Andy Reid being his coach or not. This guy put up 700+ passing yards in a game against Oklahoma, he just has incredible skills. 

 

All that really matters though is can Josh deliver us 1 Super Bowl win. Mahomes already has one ring, very likely could end up dominating for a decade + and win several more. But do we  NEED several super wins? Imo, no.

 

One win is more than enough to consider Allen a RESOUNDING success. No matter what records Mahomes goes on to break or how many SB wins, MVP awards, etc he gets, 1 Lombardi Trophy brought to Buffalo = Allen a great pick, worth every cent. 

And until Allen wins one, unfortunately, passing on Mahomes is still a resounding failure.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

See I think the sort of coach who'd have ruined Allen was a scheme over player guy. I actually think guys like McVay and Shanahan who are some of the top offensive minds in the NFL would not have been great fits for Josh. Not saying it would have been a disaster but don't think they were perfect fits to develop him. You play for them you have to play to the scheme and they are gonna run it plenty and ask you to make key throws. I have never thought that is Josh. He needs a Sean Peyton type who is willing to put the game in his QBs hands and design to his strengths (young Drew... lots of deep balls down the middle.... old Drew... lots of short outside throws to backs and possession receivers). 

 

So for example if the Bills had kept Rick Dennison or Greg Roman I don't think that would have been a good fit for Josh and could have ruined him. You needed someone who spotted early that Josh needed to be the star of his own show. And Rex for all his faults I think would have spotted that early. 

What you say makes sense, but what about the guys at the other extreme, like maybe Rex and Marrone?  I can imagine a young QB who needs work, like Allen, just running around like Allen did his rookie year and just never getting in the harness.   

 

In fact, I think guys are both extremes would have hurt Allen's development.   He needed to be nurtured, and McDab were good for him.  

 

Still, I have to say it's an interesting question:  Is Allen so good that whatever circumstance, whatever coach, he got drafted into, once he survived his rookie deal he'd turn into a great QB somewhere else?   That's essentially what some people are saying about Mahomes, and I think it's probably true.  Heck, his rookie year Favre went 0 for 4 passing for Atlanta (Jerry Glanville coaching and the legendary Chris MIller at QB), a 0.0 passer rating, and the next season he went 8-5 for the Packers in 13 starts, with a passer rating of 85, which was 6th in the league.  One year in Atlanta didn't ruin him.  

[BADOLBILZ]

52 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I think Doc said good players, not good QB’s. BB had lots of talent on the 2001 team.

 

 

No, not really.   It was one of the greatest SB upsets ever for a reason. 

 

And they weren't that much more individually talented thru the next 2 SB wins either.

 

Not sure how Bills fans could mis-remember that...........we even had Marv Levy come in here and sign 15 journeyman free agents openly admitting that the thought process was that he felt Dick Jauron could replicate that Patriot personnel synergy.

 

Every team has some good players though........which is why it's a non-point to say good coaches need good players.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

59 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

Wait what? "Thank God"... as if drafting Mahomes would've been some nightmare lol

Yes, a transcendent QB that is going to be our biggest obstacle for years to come if we even want to make it to a SB, would've been horrible to have on our side instead of against us. 

 

I think the intended point is that a hands-on, football-decision-making owner can be a problem for a franchise.  At best, a mixed blessing

 

If Pegula mixed it in and made that decision, and it turned out well, the door would be open for a different kind of process, the one where the owner meddles

 

Those usually don't end well.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I was tremendously under-impressed when McDermott tapped Brian Daboll as his OC.  As others had pointed out - there were those stints as OC with the Browns,  Dolphins, and Chiefs.  Not much good to be seen there.  And, there were those stories about Daboll just lighting into Colt McCoy to a ridiculous extent.  Going back, some said that Daboll left NE after 2006 when Belicheck tapped McDaniels and not him as OC.  And the first year - it seemed as though coming into the season, Daboll didn't even have enough clout as OC to choose his own assistants, he got Teflon Juan and Boras and a bunch of McDermott's picks on the offensive side.  Then going into the season with Peterman as the starting QB?  A lot of WTF moments.  I thought the play design was too intricate at times and not structured around how defenses actually react, and the play calling was at times (IMO) inappropriate for down and distance. 

 

But then you'd see these glimpses, as against the Titans game (W) or the Houston game (L, after Allen went out injured and Peterman threw 2 picks) and then the game of Barkley's life against the Jets where it was "Wait, we can actually do these things? These plays can work?" 

 

It became clear that the quality of the players was a factor.  And in the last couple years as the players and the quality of play have improved, there are more and more plays that work and fewer whiskey tango foxtrot moments.

 

I think Allen and Daboll have been a case of synergistic development.  I think they both realized independently that they had to change, take a different approach, and do things differently to succeed in their respective jobs.  Just as Josh is obviously sincere in talking about how much he appreciates Coach Daboll "taking him under his wing", Daboll sounded very sincere when he was talking to a reporter about the way he relates to players as a coach and said something to the effect of "I"m very grateful to Josh...more than he knows". 

 

I don't think the influence of McDermott should be overlooked in all this, either.  I think McDermott may have weighed in at a couple of key junctures: laid it out for Josh "don't care where you were drafted,  either you take care of the football and follow your progressions or you're playing "Left Bench".  And laid it out for Daboll, we stay in control as coaches and if players aren't meeting our standard, we work with them to educate and teach, we don't scream at them or ream them out publicly.

 

I think they've both grown and changed - a lot.  And it's fun to watch.  And you're right, more and more from analysts and people who break down film, I hear praise for Daboll's play designs.  So "Daboll just sucks" is 100% weak sauce as an argument.

 

 

 

And there are many more.

This is good stuff, Hap, and I'll go to one more: McDermott is growing, too.  

 

I'm sure Allen will be great.  I think McD will be great, but he needs to develop.  I simply dont know about Daboll.

[JGMcD2]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I was tremendously under-impressed when McDermott tapped Brian Daboll as his OC.  As others had pointed out - there were those stints as OC with the Browns,  Dolphins, and Chiefs.  Not much good to be seen there.  And, there were those stories about Daboll just lighting into Colt McCoy to a ridiculous extent.  Going back, some said that Daboll left NE after 2006 when Belicheck tapped McDaniels and not him as OC.  And the first year - it seemed as though coming into the season, Daboll didn't even have enough clout as OC to choose his own assistants, he got Teflon Juan and Boras and a bunch of McDermott's picks on the offensive side.  Then going into the season with Peterman as the starting QB?  A lot of WTF moments.  I thought the play design was too intricate at times and not structured around how defenses actually react, and the play calling was at times (IMO) inappropriate for down and distance. 

 

But then you'd see these glimpses, as against the Titans game (W) or the Houston game (L, after Allen went out injured and Peterman threw 2 picks) and then the game of Barkley's life against the Jets where it was "Wait, we can actually do these things? These plays can work?" 

 

It became clear that the quality of the players was a factor.  And in the last couple years as the players and the quality of play have improved, there are more and more plays that work and fewer whiskey tango foxtrot moments.

 

I think Allen and Daboll have been a case of synergistic development.  I think they both realized independently that they had to change, take a different approach, and do things differently to succeed in their respective jobs.  Just as Josh is obviously sincere in talking about how much he appreciates Coach Daboll "taking him under his wing", Daboll sounded very sincere when he was talking to a reporter about the way he relates to players as a coach and said something to the effect of "I"m very grateful to Josh...more than he knows". 

 

I don't think the influence of McDermott should be overlooked in all this, either.  I think McDermott may have weighed in at a couple of key junctures: laid it out for Josh "don't care where you were drafted,  either you take care of the football and follow your progressions or you're playing "Left Bench".  And laid it out for Daboll, we stay in control as coaches and if players aren't meeting our standard, we work with them to educate and teach, we don't scream at them or ream them out publicly.

 

I think they've both grown and changed - a lot.  And it's fun to watch.  And you're right, more and more from analysts and people who break down film, I hear praise for Daboll's play designs.  So "Daboll just sucks" is 100% weak sauce as an argument.

 

 

 

And there are many more.

Yeah, Hap, I think you do a great job of highlighting that development is far from being linear. 
 

Truthfully, development is the furthest thing from being linear. We’re human... that’s why...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

39 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This is good stuff, Hap, and I'll go to one more: McDermott is growing, too.  

I'm sure Allen will be great.  I think McD will be great, but he needs to develop.  I simply dont know about Daboll.

 

I think they all 3 need to develop.

 

The cool thing is, it seems to be happening, and it's fun to watch.

[QLBillsFan]

So as a generational talent should he not have been better with the poor talent and coaching around him? So any strides he has made come from his talent and self improvement. Nothing to do with coaching or additional talent ?
 

With that talent for example he would be also excelling with the Jets ? Just trying to understand the premise of what is being said. Anything short of a SB then should be placed on him not his coaches or teammates because they done matter? 
 

Again I’m a huge fan of JA and I’m glad he’s leading the Bills. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

What you say makes sense, but what about the guys at the other extreme, like maybe Rex and Marrone?  I can imagine a young QB who needs work, like Allen, just running around like Allen did his rookie year and just never getting in the harness. 

 

I think Jameis Winston with Dirk Koetter and Todd Monken would be a good example of this.  They took the attitude sling it first, then we'll work on refining your ability to make the read and avoid the pick.  Only he never got there and after 5 seasons, bad habits are pretty entrenched.

 

 

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No, not really.   It was one of the greatest SB upsets ever for a reason. 

 

And they weren't that much more individually talented thru the next 2 SB wins either.

 

Not sure how Bills fans could mis-remember that...........we even had Marv Levy come in here and sign 15 journeyman free agents openly admitting that the thought process was that he felt Dick Jauron could replicate that Patriot personnel synergy.

 

Every team has some good players though........which is why it's a non-point to say good coaches need good players.

 

 

 

Because their opponent was the Greatest Show on Turf.

 

BB had his chess pieces in place on that defense. Vrabel, Brushci, Millowy, Law etc.

 

All teams have some good players, but not all teams have the same amount or quality of good players.

[Shaw66]

26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think Jameis Winston with Dirk Koetter and Todd Monken would be a good example of this.  They took the attitude sling it first, then we'll work on refining your ability to make the read and avoid the pick.  Only he never got there and after 5 seasons, bad habits are pretty entrenched.

 

 

Good point. I kept thinking about Jameis and didn't know who his coaches were.   Jameis really should be better than he is.  

 

And maybe EJ Manuel never would have good anywhere, but the Bills certainly didn't do him any favors.  On the other hand, substitute Mahomes or Allen for EJ, and the Bills would have been a lot better, almost instantly 

[Watkins90]

On 11/25/2020 at 9:17 AM, Chuck Wagon said:

My god, I could not imagine being in Pegula's shoes, knowing you desperately wanted Mahomes but allowed your football people to do their job and now you are forced to watch him ascend to potentially the GOAT status from a distance on a pick you traded away.

Who is to say he reaches that as a member of the Bills. We all love to play the what if game, but maybe Mahomes was just in the right situation, which allowed him to thrive.