The Bills and Patrick Mahomes

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

Sometimes you do the best with what you have. His coaching journey has taken him through NE and some time with Saban. He has in fact improved JA. 
 

 By the way I’m of the camp that JA is good now and destined to be great. He’s got top 3 arm, top 3 elusiveness, top 3 leadership. Just disagree on Daboll sucking as coach. 

 

I am sure that Josh Allen is exceptional.

 

I think Daboll is plenty competent...........but I am not sure he's a difference making coach himself and that track record as an OC is why...........if you are finishing 30th in the league in offense you aren't creating much synergy.

 

 

[JoshAllenReceipts]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Daboll was an OC 3 different times in the NFL prior to coming to Buffalo and his "track record" was inarguably abysmal at those stops.

 

 

^ This.

[QLBillsFan]

Ok guys I’ve stated JA is a high level talent. You win Daboll sucks and JA would as good with Gase. 

[GunnerBill]

20 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I am sure that Josh Allen is exceptional.

 

I think Daboll is plenty competent...........but I am not sure he's a difference making coach himself and that track record as an OC is why...........if you are finishing 30th in the league in offense you aren't creating much synergy.

 

 

 

I do think he has matured a lot since. He probably got his initial OC shots too early. There is a lot out there about him losing his temper with his players and being inflexible in his scheme in his time at Cleveland and Miami. There has not been any evidence of either of those traits here. Not arguing he is a top 5 OC or anything but he has done a pretty good job in Buffalo for my money, and I think that is a combination of him being given much more talent to work with and him being a more mature coach who had a chance to reflect on why things didn't work out his first time around as an OC (and I know it was in 3 places but it was 3 places in 4 consecutive years). He got his first NFL OC job aged 32 as a supposed coaching hot shot. Failing and having time back as a position coach to reflect likely helped him. 

[JoshAllenReceipts]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I do think he has matured a lot since. He probably got his initial OC shots too early. There is a lot out there about him losing his temper with his players and being inflexible in his scheme in his time at Cleveland and Miami. There has not been any evidence of either of those traits here. Not arguing he is a top 5 OC or anything but he has done a pretty good job in Buffalo for my money, and I think that is a combination of him being given much more talent to work with and him being a more mature coach who had a chance to reflect on why things didn't work out his first time around as an OC (and I know it was in 3 places but it was 3 places in 4 consecutive years). He got his first NFL OC job aged 32 as a supposed coaching hot shot. Failing and having time back as a position coach to reflect likely helped him. 

 

It only appears that Daboll is doing "a pretty good job in Buffalo" because of Josh Allen. Allen hides a lot of warts. Allen is a Truck.

 

When Daboll is the next Head Coach of say, the Atlanta Falcons next year, he's going to be an unmitigated disaster of a HC.

 

Why? Because he won't have Josh Allen. Plain and simple.

 

Daboll's entire NFL reputation right now is based on Josh Allen falling from the heavens and landing in his lap. He's about to profit big time off the backs of Allen, turn it into a HC job, and then (predictably) flame out very quickly.

16 hours ago, QLBillsFan said:

Ok guys I’ve stated JA is a high level talent. You win Daboll sucks and JA would as good with Gase. 

 

JA is a special, generational, transcendent QB who would be great with ANYBODY as his Coach. JA makes his Coaches, he makes his team, he makes his organization, he makes his city. 

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, JoshAllenReceipts said:

 

It only appears that Daboll is doing "a pretty good job in Buffalo" because of Josh Allen. Allen hides a lot of warts. Allen is a Truck.

 

When Daboll is the next Head Coach of say, the Atlanta Falcons next year, he's going to be an unmitigated disaster of a HC.

 

Why? Because he won't have Josh Allen. Plain and simple.

 

Daboll's entire NFL reputation right now is based on Josh Allen falling from the heavens and landing in his lap. He's about to profit big time off the backs of Allen, turn it into a HC job, and then (predictably) flame out very quickly.

 

JA is a special, generational, transcendent QB who would be great with ANYBODY as his Coach. JA makes his Coaches, he makes his team, he makes his organization, he makes his city. 

 

So look you might be right but I am not sure you are. We will see. I think Daboll has done a pretty good job of helping develop Josh. Josh Allen was not Josh Allen the day he walked in the building.

 

And I don't mean you are wrong about Josh being a big reason the offense is good. But I am not sure Daboll is a disaster of an OC who deserves none of the credit. They developed Josh well. They realised pretty early that he is a Quarterback who plays at his best when you put the whole game on him and they played to that even when there were fans here begging them to run it more. I think Daboll is a better OC in 2020 than he was in 2020. Part of that is him developing, part of it is him having better talent to coach. I am not sure we will learn the answer when he gets HC job because I doubt he continues to call his own plays if he is smart. But I reckon if you gave Daboll the Falcons offense now as OC he'd do better than Dirk Koetter.

Edited November 28, 2020 by GunnerBill

[MJS]

17 minutes ago, JoshAllenReceipts said:

 

It only appears that Daboll is doing "a pretty good job in Buffalo" because of Josh Allen. Allen hides a lot of warts. Allen is a Truck.

 

When Daboll is the next Head Coach of say, the Atlanta Falcons next year, he's going to be an unmitigated disaster of a HC.

 

Why? Because he won't have Josh Allen. Plain and simple.

 

Daboll's entire NFL reputation right now is based on Josh Allen falling from the heavens and landing in his lap. He's about to profit big time off the backs of Allen, turn it into a HC job, and then (predictably) flame out very quickly.

 

JA is a special, generational, transcendent QB who would be great with ANYBODY as his Coach. JA makes his Coaches, he makes his team, he makes his organization, he makes his city. 

You don't have many good offensive coordinators without good QB's to run their systems.

 

Looking at his actual scheme, it seems pretty intricate and takes advantage of defenses. It seems nimble. I like the full list of formations, pre-snap movement, etc. At times Daboll is very good at play calling. Sometimes I think he over thinks things and tries to get too tricky. At other times he seems stubborn and runs the same play or similar multiple times when it clearly isn't working. But overall he seems at least above average to me. And Josh Allen heaps a ton of praise on him and credits him a lot for his development.

[FireChans]

23 minutes ago, JoshAllenReceipts said:

 

It only appears that Daboll is doing "a pretty good job in Buffalo" because of Josh Allen. Allen hides a lot of warts. Allen is a Truck.

 

When Daboll is the next Head Coach of say, the Atlanta Falcons next year, he's going to be an unmitigated disaster of a HC.

 

Why? Because he won't have Josh Allen. Plain and simple.

 

Daboll's entire NFL reputation right now is based on Josh Allen falling from the heavens and landing in his lap. He's about to profit big time off the backs of Allen, turn it into a HC job, and then (predictably) flame out very quickly.

 

JA is a special, generational, transcendent QB who would be great with ANYBODY as his Coach. JA makes his Coaches, he makes his team, he makes his organization, he makes his city. 

huh.

 

Josh went from mediocre QB with a big arm to the QB he is today. Not sure anyone can separate that from Daboll.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

And Josh Allen heaps a ton of praise on him and credits him a lot for his development.

 

Yep. And when he talks about Daboll it genuinely comes across as sincere. I think he and Josh absolutely love working with each other and both recognise the other matters.

[Einstein's Dog]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

huh.

 

Josh went from mediocre QB with a big arm to the QB he is today. Not sure anyone can separate that from Daboll.

I agree.  A  raw pick is developing beautifully.  The QB and the OC both deserve credit.

 

I don't think the opinion that Daboll stinks is shared by the league.  Teams will inquire.

[JGMcD2]

26 minutes ago, JoshAllenReceipts said:

 

It only appears that Daboll is doing "a pretty good job in Buffalo" because of Josh Allen. Allen hides a lot of warts. Allen is a Truck.

 

When Daboll is the next Head Coach of say, the Atlanta Falcons next year, he's going to be an unmitigated disaster of a HC.

 

Why? Because he won't have Josh Allen. Plain and simple.

 

Daboll's entire NFL reputation right now is based on Josh Allen falling from the heavens and landing in his lap. He's about to profit big time off the backs of Allen, turn it into a HC job, and then (predictably) flame out very quickly.

 

JA is a special, generational, transcendent QB who would be great with ANYBODY as his Coach. JA makes his Coaches, he makes his team, he makes his organization, he makes his city. 

I would argue his reputation is based off of endorsements by Bill Belichick and Nick Saban. 
 

I don’t think Allen’s development was exclusive of Daboll. I’ve worked with a few high level HS QBs and HS coaches and they rave about what Daboll does with his play calls... even dating back to last year. Basically how intricate the system is and how he’s constantly setting up for plays in future series. They love the route combinations. 
 

Now, is Daboll a HC candidate without Josh? Absolutely not. It’s a mutually beneficial relationship and more often than not the player does have more influence on the success of the pairing because if the players flames out then the coach carries part of the blame. They don’t often get another shot to develop players... whereas players can go somewhere else and a coach will take a chance at molding them. 
 

If your argument is that you need a franchise QB to have success as a coach, I agree with you. But it seems to be your argument is just that Daboll outright sucks... which is a piss poor argument. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I agree.  A  raw pick is developing beautifully.  The QB and the OC both deserve credit.

 

I don't think the opinion that Daboll stinks is shared by the league.  Teams will inquire.

 

Based on my in the know league contact it definitely isn't. He has friends on staffs and in front offices in multiple organisations and even the ones that liked Josh coming out think Daboll deserves some credit.

2 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

I would argue his reputation is based off of endorsements by Bill Belichick and Nick Saban. 
 

I don’t think Allen’s development was exclusive of Daboll. I’ve worked with a few high level HS QBs and HS coaches and they rave about what Daboll does with his play calls... even dating back to last year. Basically how intricate the system is and how he’s constantly setting up for plays in future series. They love the route combinations. 
 

Now, is Daboll a HC candidate without Josh? Absolutely not. It’s a mutually beneficial relationship and more often than not the player does have more influence on the success of the pairing because if the players flames out then the coach carries part of the blame. They don’t often get another shot to develop players... whereas players can go somewhere else and a coach will take a chance at molding them. 
 

If your argument is that you need a franchise QB to have success as a coach, I agree with you. But it seems to be your argument is just that Daboll outright sucks... which is a piss poor argument. 

 

I gave this a thumbs up but ugraded to an awesome. Very well explained. 

[QLBillsFan]

35 minutes ago, JoshAllenReceipts said:

 

 

JA is a special, generational, transcendent QB who would be great with ANYBODY as his Coach. JA makes his Coaches, he makes his team, he makes his organization, he makes his city. 

Love JA but this is a bit over the top. Generational covers about 20 years. He still has areas of improvement to work on. He’s good on the verge of great , but would argue if he had the original McClappy coaches and receivers he would not be where he is at now. I’m glad he’s our QB and all Buffalo but your a bit aggressive with the generational stuff. 

[GoBills808]

Daboll is Gase and will fare similarly without Allen

[FireChans]

18 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Daboll is Gase and will fare similarly without Allen

Allen is Peyton Manning is where your analogy fails.

[BADOLBILZ]

50 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So look you might be right but I am not sure you are. We will see. I think Daboll has done a pretty good job of helping develop Josh. Josh Allen was not Josh Allen the day he walked in the building.

 

And I don't mean you are wrong about Josh being a big reason the offense is good. But I am not sure Daboll is a disaster of an OC who deserves none of the credit. They developed Josh well. They realised pretty early that he is a Quarterback who plays at his best when you put the whole game on him and they played to that even when there were fans here begging them to run it more. I think Daboll is a better OC in 2020 than he was in 2020. Part of that is him developing, part of it is him having better talent to coach. I am not sure we will learn the answer when he gets HC job because I doubt he continues to call his own plays if he is smart. But I reckon if you gave Daboll the Falcons offense now as OC he'd do better than Dirk Koetter.

 

 

Daboll could turn out to be a very good HC.    As we should know by now there is only a loose correlation between success as an coordinator and a HC.    Chan Gailey is a prime example.   He was a natural........he didn't need to fail at any OC jobs before he was good at it let alone 3x like Daboll.    But he wasn't the right kind of personality to run a football program/organization.  Daboll could very well be.   Most of the positive feedback about him is more about his people skills than his football acumen.   And sometimes someone who has actually MADE all of the mistakes is better suited to hire people who won't.   It's an axiom in US sports that the less gifted players make the better coaches........but I think that in coordinating positions raw talent is probably the most important asset.   

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, JGMcD2 said:

I would argue his reputation is based off of endorsements by Bill Belichick and Nick Saban. 
 

I don’t think Allen’s development was exclusive of Daboll. I’ve worked with a few high level HS QBs and HS coaches and they rave about what Daboll does with his play calls... even dating back to last year. Basically how intricate the system is and how he’s constantly setting up for plays in future series. They love the route combinations. 
 

Now, is Daboll a HC candidate without Josh? Absolutely not. It’s a mutually beneficial relationship and more often than not the player does have more influence on the success of the pairing because if the players flames out then the coach carries part of the blame. They don’t often get another shot to develop players... whereas players can go somewhere else and a coach will take a chance at molding them. 
 

If your argument is that you need a franchise QB to have success as a coach, I agree with you. But it seems to be your argument is just that Daboll outright sucks... which is a piss poor argument. 

 

 

It is important to note though,  that their coaching trees have not yielded much success outside of their own systems.    They are genius level coaches themselves and it turns out that they've mostly surrounded themselves with limited minds because that's all they've needed.    Working for them opens doors but the results have not been good.

[Doc]

Good coaches still need good players and vice versa.  Without Brady, Belicheat has a losing record as a HC. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Daboll could turn out to be a very good HC.    As we should know by now there is only a loose correlation between success as an coordinator and a HC.    Chan Gailey is a prime example.   He was a natural........he didn't need to fail at any OC jobs before he was good at it let alone 3x like Daboll.    But he wasn't the right kind of personality to run a football program/organization.  Daboll could very well be.   Most of the positive feedback about him is more about his people skills than his football acumen.   And sometimes someone who has actually MADE all of the mistakes is better suited to hire people who won't.   It's an axiom in US sports that the less gifted players make the better coaches........but I think that in coordinating positions raw talent is probably the most important asset.   

 

Agree with all that. What you have to look for is guys who demonstrate leadership. Being a great play caller has, as you say, a loose correlation with being a great Head Coach. 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, JoshAllenReceipts said:

 

 

JA is a special, generational, transcendent QB who would be great with ANYBODY as his Coach. JA makes his Coaches, he makes his team, he makes his organization, he makes his city. 

This is an interesting point.  I think he is a generational talent.  I've compared him to Elway and to Ben in terms size, strength, guts, pocket awareness. But he is a better student of the game.  No back stories in his way.  He is going to be field general to match Peyton. I believe it. 

 

As for coaches, I do think it is possible for a coach to screw him up, but it would be pretty hard to do.  Rex might have just turned him loose without any quality coaching, let him run wild.  That could have developed a lot of bad habits. But generally I'd say you're right - most coaches would have been fine for him.

 

Still, I think Daboll has done a good job with him.