Flores: Tua benched, not hurt

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, dorquemada said:

 

yeah there's an utterly ridiculous article on ESPN+

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/30343834/ranking-nfl-franchise-quarterbacks-how-2017-2021-draft-classes-stack-why-trevor-lawrence-high-list

 

The net is that they have TREVOR LAWRENCE ranked #2 behind Patrick Mahomes for NFL franchise QBs.  A guy who hasnt played a down in the NFL, and has the benefit of playing on a stacked college team is going to be better than Josh Allen.  Allen is #7 on this dumb list for what it's worth

 

 

As a college football fanatic I would also point out that Lawrence doesn't exactly play against a lot of elite teams.  In last years Championship game he looked pretty ordinary going up against those future NFL players on LSU's defense.

 

 

 

 

[Logic]

I'm late to this thread, but I wanted to say this:

I think Flores made a poor decision on Sunday.

I hate -- absolutely HATE -- when coaches pull young QBs too early or too often. I am of the opinion that it absolutely DOES hinder their development.

Flores needed to decide whether he wanted to go for the playoffs this season or get Tua his reps this season. Once he decided, he should have stuck with that choice. Yanking a young QB in a close game, three games into his NFL career, is NOT a good thing to do. How is the kid supposed to grow from the type of adversity he was facing Sunday? How is he supposed to learn to adapt to and overcome defenses like the one he was facing Sunday? 

I am so, so glad that the Bills didn't pull this crap with Allen. I'm glad they let him learn through his mistakes and are now reaping the benefits. I like Brian Flores a lot, I think he's a great coach, and I think the Dolphins likely have a bright future under him. But the decision to pull Tua was a bad one, and I stand by that.

[whatdrought]

Flores bought the hype that the dolphins were contenders after they won some fluky games. First sign of trouble and he panics. 

[prissythecat]

34 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Flores bought the hype that the dolphins were elite after they won some fluky games. First sign of trouble and he panics. 

 

 

Fixed that a little for you.  He was reading some posts from  a high IQ guy using advanced stats.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, dorquemada said:

 

yeah there's an utterly ridiculous article on ESPN+

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/30343834/ranking-nfl-franchise-quarterbacks-how-2017-2021-draft-classes-stack-why-trevor-lawrence-high-list

 

The net is that they have TREVOR LAWRENCE ranked #2 behind Patrick Mahomes for NFL franchise QBs.  A guy who hasnt played a down in the NFL, and has the benefit of playing on a stacked college team is going to be better than Josh Allen.  Allen is #7 on this dumb list for what it's worth

 

 

Fortunately or unfortunately, it requires me to subscribe.  Would you be willing to give us a synopsis?

 

Every year experts seem to project rookies who have never played high onto lists of top QBs.  It seems to work about as well as one might expect

 

[Figster]

5 hours ago, Logic said:

I'm late to this thread, but I wanted to say this:

I think Flores made a poor decision on Sunday.

I hate -- absolutely HATE -- when coaches pull young QBs too early or too often. I am of the opinion that it absolutely DOES hinder their development.

Flores needed to decide whether he wanted to go for the playoffs this season or get Tua his reps this season. Once he decided, he should have stuck with that choice. Yanking a young QB in a close game, three games into his NFL career, is NOT a good thing to do. How is the kid supposed to grow from the type of adversity he was facing Sunday? How is he supposed to learn to adapt to and overcome defenses like the one he was facing Sunday? 

I am so, so glad that the Bills didn't pull this crap with Allen. I'm glad they let him learn through his mistakes and are now reaping the benefits. I like Brian Flores a lot, I think he's a great coach, and I think the Dolphins likely have a bright future under him. But the decision to pull Tua was a bad one, and I stand by that.

It looked like Fitz was explaining to Tua how the Safety followed his eyes to make the INT.

 

I think Tua learned something watching Fitz play against a team he was struggling against.

 

Still,  I tend to agree , It was an odd move because you want to see how a player responds to adversity IMO.

 

Getting yanked at the the 1st sign of trouble is probably not the best way to develop a rookie QB.

 

Better for Buffalo...

 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Figster

[BruceVilanch]

If you're going to start a rook QB let them take their lumps, it helps development. I don't get why they did this and I genuinely think Flores is a good HC, but this move was a head scratcher.

[TBBills]

11 hours ago, QLBillsFan said:

Exactly Tebow is great example. Johnny M as well. Beane picking JA looks pretty darn good right now even if just vs his draft class. Long term would you want JA vs any of them including Baker and Lamar? 

 

3 hours ago, Figster said:

It looked like Fitz was explaining to Tua how the Safety followed his eyes to make the INT.

 

I think Tua learned something watching Fitz play against a team he was struggling against.

 

Still,  I tend to agree , It was an odd move because you want to see how a player responds to adversity IMO.

 

Getting yanked at the the 1st sign of trouble is probably not the best way to develop a rookie QB.

 

Better for Buffalo...

 

 

 

 

Of course you can learns something from Fitz... 

A. Never put Fitz in when the playoffs are on the line.

 

B. Fitz loves INTs

Edited November 24, 2020 by TBBills

[Bill from NYC]

13 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

As a college football fanatic I would also point out that Lawrence doesn't exactly play against a lot of elite teams.  In last years Championship game he looked pretty ordinary going up against those future NFL players on LSU's defense.

 

 

 

 

The above is true.

 

In any event, are you stating that Lawrence is not such a great prospect?

[Captain Hindsight]

20 hours ago, billybob71 said:

jets gonna get their first win next week

I think so too. Bad teams always play better at the end of the year. I'm glad we got our Jets games out of the way

 

If they can not turn the ball over, I could see the Jets winning this and lots of media members slowly crawling back into their "Miami is the best team in the AFC" caves

[dorquemada]

12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fortunately or unfortunately, it requires me to subscribe.  Would you be willing to give us a synopsis?

 

Every year experts seem to project rookies who have never played high onto lists of top QBs.  It seems to work about as well as one might expect

 

 

Sure, it starts with

 

With that in mind, Pro Football Focus set out to rank the top 10 quarterbacks who we'd want to lead a franchise -- based on talent alone, and not their respective contract situations -- from the 2017-2021 NFL draft classes.

 

lol i guess I should have stopped at PFF.  but as a Bills fan I enjoy punishing myself, so I pushed on

 

1. Patrick Mahomes, Kansas City Chiefs

 

2. Trevor Lawrence, Clemson Tigers

 

3. Deshaun Watson, Houston Texans

 

4. Lamar Jackson, Baltimore Ravens

 

5. Joe Burrow, Cincinnati Bengals

 

6. Kyler Murray, Arizona Cardinals

 

7. Josh Allen, Buffalo Bills

 

8. Justin Fields, Ohio State Buckeyes

 

9. Justin Herbert, Los Angeles Chargers

 

10. Zach Wilson, BYU Cougars

 

So the net here is out of the top 10 'franchise QBs' out of the last 4 years draft classes, 3 of them have yet to be drafted.  About par for the course for PFF.  I hear there's a good QB on some pop warner team outside Miami, i'm pretty sure we should declare him the greatest QB ever

14 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

As a college football fanatic I would also point out that Lawrence doesn't exactly play against a lot of elite teams.  In last years Championship game he looked pretty ordinary going up against those future NFL players on LSU's defense.

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed!  Put him in the SEC,  i'm sure he'll still be a very good college QB but the coronation might have gotten slowed down a bit

[SCBills]

18 hours ago, Just Joshin' said:

If Lawrence is as advertised the team in the #1 spot would never trade out.  Fields maybe, Lawrence not.

 

I see people talking about Tua, and the talent at Alabama.... that may start to become a narrative about Trevor too.  

 

I've watched Clemson a lot, and fwiw, I would absolutely take him at #1... but i'm already seeing draft people talk about his downfield accuracy percentage (It's way lower than Fields), and truthfully, T-Law gets alot of yards via YAC from insanely talented skill guys.  He also throws a ton of jump balls down the field to dudes who are simply bigger, faster and stronger than anyone else.  

 

His LSU Championship Game last year was pretty bad... for as good as Trevor is, and can be, he is the reason they lost that game. 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by SCBills

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

The above is true.

 

In any event, are you stating that Lawrence is not such a great prospect?

 

Trevor is a great PROSPECT but the operative word here is prospect.  He is no where near a sure thing and I was reacting to the insane list that had him the 2nd best recent NFL QB taken in the draft before he threw a single NFL pass.  To tank to draft Lawrence would be crazy IMO.

 

I would also have some concerns about Justin Fields.  As an Ohio State fan he reminds me of an athletic Haskins. That is when he has all day to throw and is playing against B1G secondary's he can destroy them throwing to a posse of future NFL WR's.  But put pressure on him as IU just did and his accuracy and judgement suffer.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by CincyBillsFan

[YoloinOhio]

3 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

Trevor is a great PROSPECT but the operative word here is prospect.  He is no where near a sure thing and I was reacting to the insane list that had him the 2nd best recent NFL QB taken in the draft before he threw a single NFL pass.  To tank to draft Lawrence would be crazy IMO.

 

I would also have some concerns about Justin Fields.  As an Ohio State fan he reminds me of an athletic Haskins. That is when he has all day to throw and is playing against B1G secondary's he can destroy them throwing to a posse of future NFL WR's.  But put pressure on him as IU just did and his accuracy and judgement suffer.

 

 

 Biggest issue for Fields is his ability to process quickly. IU blitzed on every single snap (!) not sure every team will do that but he could have taken more advantage than he did if he had the processing ability of Lawrence. I don’t question fields arm talent or mobility though he seems to save his running for certain times when he could do it a lot more. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by YoloinOhio

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, YoloinOhio said:

 Biggest issue for Fields is his ability to process quickly. IU blitzed on every single snap (!) not sure every team will do that but he could have taken more advantage than he did if he had the processing ability of Lawrence 

 

I really think he would benefit from one more year at OSU.  With Lawrence out of the way Fields would be the presumptive #1 pick.  He doesn't want to go down the path of Haskins or Turbisky if he can avoid it. 

[YoloinOhio]

5 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

I really think he would benefit from one more year at OSU.  With Lawrence out of the way Fields would be the presumptive #1 pick.  He doesn't want to go down the path of Haskins or Turbisky if he can avoid it. 

He absolutely would benefit from another year. I said the same thing about Haskins, I think his lack of experience was a big reason he struggled. Same with trubisky. One year is not enough. Fields will have two,  but one of those was a cluster due to Covid. But I would never expect a kid expected to go at the top of the 1st round to return, but I think his nfl readiness really would benefit especially given his situation with being able to be coached by Day in this system 

Edited November 24, 2020 by YoloinOhio

[Doc]

Not impressed with Fields and he'll suffer the same fate as every other OSU QB in the NFL.  It's basically Lawrence and then a big step down from there.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Doc

[SCBills]

10 minutes ago, Doc said:

Not impressed with Fields and he'll suffer the same fate as every other OSU QB in the NFL. 

 

People always trash OSU QB's, but never really go into why..  This is my thing:

 

My worry with OSU QB's is that the team is so head and shoulders above the rest of the conference in terms of both talent and athleticism.  

 

Clemson is the same in the ACC, but they at least face SEC-like athleticism throughout the conference.   Trevor will have played Miami and Notre Dame (likely) before the CFP.  Clemson also plays South Carolina every year and has been scheduling a second SEC team early season as of late. 

 

Fields biggest game of the year will have been..... Indiana? 

 

Even a team like FSU, which is a dumpster fire lately, has multiple NFL guys on that defense. 

 

B1G has a lot of well coached, solid teams, but there's a reason it seems like a shock to the system every time OSU plays Clemson/SEC in the CFP. 

 

OSU did step up, albeit in a loss to Clemson, last year - I will admit that. 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by SCBills

[Bill from NYC]

20 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

Trevor is a great PROSPECT but the operative word here is prospect.  He is no where near a sure thing and I was reacting to the insane list that had him the 2nd best recent NFL QB taken in the draft before he threw a single NFL pass.  To tank to draft Lawrence would be crazy IMO.

I agree with the above but respectfully disagree with your last sentence. Not every great college player is a sure thing in the NFL. There are too many avenues towards failure.

 

As far as Trevor, he is said to be the best prospect since Elway in 1982. He has an insane amount of talent. If the Jets can keep it going and tank, the franchise will immediately increase in value. If he is as good as he would seem to be, he will eventually win games, perhaps even super bowls (as much as I dislike saying this). Playing in the NYC area could make him one of the most popular players in any sport IF he turns out to be great.

 

QBs are even more important than they were in 1982. The Jets would be wise to tank.

[YoloinOhio]

43 minutes ago, Doc said:

Not impressed with Fields and he'll suffer the same fate as every other OSU QB in the NFL.  It's basically Lawrence and then a big step down from there.

Scout the player, not the helmet. Fields may not be a perfect prospect like Lawrence but the issues he has are not related to the fact he plays at Ohio state. He’s a different level of talent at the position than they’ve ever had, As he is the highest rated player the program has ever had recruiting wise . He is the first one to play for Ryan day who is a QB coach by trade, coached in the nfl and runs an NFL type offense. Acknlowleding Fields areas of development is not analogous to saying all osu QBs fail in the nfl and so will he. His areas for development will come with  experience - learning to go through reads more quickly, pre-snap/post snap. He’s a young player with a high ceiling. To say he’s bound for the same fate as any other QB from osu is ignoring that there has ever been a good nfl QB from places like LSU, Oregon, Texas tech, Wyoming, Oklahoma etc - just to mention a few successful young QBs over the last few years who game from schools who did not previously produce Good NFL  QBs - and not looking at the change in system, coaching, etc that takes place at those schools over the years and how that impacts the type of prospect that will emerge, let alone the simple fact that every player is different. I think he needs more experience and is not as good as Lawrence right now, but I would say that no matter where he played. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by YoloinOhio