Dub Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 31 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I am not saying some places and businesses have not been affected mind you. One of my daughters is a professional performer and that business has essentially been destroyed for now. Same with some bars and restaurants. But as for guaranteed rights I just haven’t see a complete effect. We’ve all had to adapt, and if we all pulled together on mitigating actions we’d all be a whole lot farther along against this virus. Sorry about your daughter Oldman. I absolutely understand her position, the business I was employed by for my entire adult life has shut down. I'm looking for work after twenty yrs of a decent living. I understand that the China virus is not something we should have or are for that matter taking lightly. The people that have a problem with the way we've responded to it as a country that share my pov, value our freedom above most other things. Honestly we don't trust others telling us how to live our lives when there has been so much contradictory info regarding the virus and our response to it. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle as it usually does. We should not have been restricted the way we have been. Elderly people should have been made the priority along with people that have health issues that were easily aggravated by the virus. None of this means people that share my pov don't see it as an issue or take it lightly. I respect others pov on this I just value my freedom and rights above all else. The easier they are to take from us the more they will be taken. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capco Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 You sound like a standout guy, @oldmanfan. You have completely reasonable takes and I think people like you are an excellent example of part of the "middle" of America. You balance your beliefs with your common sense very well. I'll be looking out for your commentary from this point forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 30 minutes ago, WideNine said: 2 blocks of trouble in a large city is not justification for usurping the rights that states have to address their own policing needs and certainly does not justify an overreach of sending in federal militia. Protection details around federal buildings to discourage vandalism is within their jurisdiction, unmarked DHS vans rounding up citizens and patrolling the streets, not-so-much. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/20/us/portland-protester-navy-veteran-beaten/index.html Trump does not understand the mandate that leaders have towards taking the appropriate actions to deescalate conflict - rather, he irresponsibly pours gas on conflicts, leverages rifts between groups for his own gain, works to sow discord, and fosters wild conspiracy theories that resonate with idiot radical armed militias and take root in impressionable 17 year old children whose ding-bat mothers then drive to a protest armed with an assault rifle. What could possibly go wrong when you have a President that uses DHS as his personal militia, appeals to armed fascist militias, and armed impressionable kids. Violence escalates and people end up killed. This kid panicked and fired wildly into a crowd while falling to the the ground after getting into a confrontation and shooting another man. This is why states and cities should handle their own policing not free-lancing armed idiots. We have a President who is incapable of leading in a way that can bridge differences, find compromises, and peacefully move our country forward. It really is that simple, and we do need reform in our policing and that is not as simple as just somehow eradicating racism from the human psyche, but we can make progress with policies that reduce guns on our streets, provide more oversight and transparency in our policing, removal of "bad" cops, and true justice for those harmed by police excessive force. "What strikes me about the talking points is that they didn't call for calm among the public,” said Elizabeth Neumann, who served as DHS's assistant secretary for threat prevention and security policy in the Trump administration. “Even in the early hours after the incident, it was known private militias had self-deployed. …They seemed more interested in Rittenhouse's reputation than calling for calm and actual law and order.” Neumann, who left the Trump administration in April, recently endorsed former Vice President Joe Biden for president. WideNine, I don't think anyone would argue Rittenhouse or people like him should be out in the position they're in. That said Why do they feel that they need to be out there? Don't say Trump either. Trump isn't running these cities that have these problems going on. Right or wrong, it depends on the person but most of these folks like Rittenhouse see a community in trouble and think they can or should try to help. We shouldn't be seeing the circumstances that bring them to that conclusion going on in our streets. These city leaders namely Portland are NOT taking care of the problems that are being caused by violent street anarchists. That is why Trump was interjecting the federal government into it. The violence there specifically was not a response to federal government intervention, it was just the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Dub said: WideNine, I don't think anyone would argue Rittenhouse or people like him should be out in the position they're in. That said Why do they feel that they need to be out there? Don't say Trump either. Trump isn't running these cities that have these problems going on. Right or wrong, it depends on the person but most of these folks like Rittenhouse see a community in trouble and think they can or should try to help. We shouldn't be seeing the circumstances that bring them to that conclusion going on in our streets. These city leaders namely Portland are NOT taking care of the problems that are being caused by violent street anarchists. That is why Trump was interjecting the federal government into it. The violence there specifically was not a response to federal government intervention, it was just the opposite. I do blame Trump - and the kid's mom. Rittenhouse was in the front row of a Trump rally, his mother received a standing ovation at another. This is the dystopian world which the Trump and his GOP enablers have fostered with his non-stop lying and pandering to the worst fears and prejudices of this nation. Putin has to be laughing his *** off. He is unfit for office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, WideNine said: This is the dystopian world which the Trump and his GOP enablers have fostered with his non-stop lying and pandering to the worst fears and prejudices of this nation. This specifically, what fears and prejudices are you referring to ? Specifically please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Dub said: This specifically, what fears and prejudices are you referring to ? Specifically please You can either give a man a fish or teach them to fish for themselves. 4 years of "hoax" and "conspiracy" coming from Trump....or "Deep State"....the list is extensive. Just Google "Trump Tweet Conspiracy" and take your pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 13 minutes ago, WideNine said: You can either give a man a fish or teach them to fish for themselves. 4 years of "hoax" and "conspiracy" coming from Trump....or "Deep State"....the list is extensive. Just Google "Trump Tweet Conspiracy" and take your pick. Thats fine, I was responding to your assertions. If you can't or don't want to take the time to back them up thats your choice. I don't enjoy trying to respond to generalizations. You can call me crazy all you want but the "Deepstate" is not as hard to believe as most on the left would like to think. What is so hard to believe about the fact that someone from outside D.C. regardless of who it is. Has plans to come in to an established way of thinking and doing business and has 90% of staffers and established politicians against them from the jump. This will dramatically affect their lives. Potentially changing the way they've been living/leaching off the people of this country for decades at least. If I was them I'd probably be nervous or against it also. Also how many of these people were leftovers appointed to their position by left leaning Dems and Republicans. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Dub said: Sorry about your daughter Oldman. I absolutely understand her position, the business I was employed by for my entire adult life has shut down. I'm looking for work after twenty yrs of a decent living. I understand that the China virus is not something we should have or are for that matter taking lightly. The people that have a problem with the way we've responded to it as a country that share my pov, value our freedom above most other things. Honestly we don't trust others telling us how to live our lives when there has been so much contradictory info regarding the virus and our response to it. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle as it usually does. We should not have been restricted the way we have been. Elderly people should have been made the priority along with people that have health issues that were easily aggravated by the virus. None of this means people that share my pov don't see it as an issue or take it lightly. I respect others pov on this I just value my freedom and rights above all else. The easier they are to take from us the more they will be taken. I value freedoms as well. In the immediate emergency steps had to be taken to cut the curve so hospitals were not overwhelmed. I work for a health care network and get that. At this point most if not all states are asking citizens to use mitigating strategies which include distancing in order to eliminate the virus as much as possible until vaccines. I think California could open Disneyland with similar precautions as in Florida. Mandated masks, distancing and such. I think they should have certain numbers of fans at Bills games with appropriate precautions. But unfortunately all these rely on people working together to help, and it is blatantly obvious that is not happening. Give you a great example or two. Today I stopped at the rest area on the interstate to use the rest room. Signs all over the entrance: Do Not Enter Without A Mask. I use the rest room, am at the sink washing my hands, a big fat guy walks right past me: no mask. I walk out and the custodian: no mask. Felt less clean walking out than I did walking in. Town where I live, a new bar opened a month or so ago. Attracted people interested in checking out the new place. Pictures all over social media: people shoulder to shoulder, no masks. And here’s the killer: the Mayor was one of them. So freedoms are great. But not wearing a mask in the middle of a pandemic is just not a freedom guaranteed under the Constitution. 1 hour ago, Capco said: You sound like a standout guy, @oldmanfan. You have completely reasonable takes and I think people like you are an excellent example of part of the "middle" of America. You balance your beliefs with your common sense very well. I'll be looking out for your commentary from this point forward. I may come around more if reasonable discussion is held. I have found it is a haven for the alt right and I’m not interested in feeding that crowd. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamSandwhich Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 6 hours ago, Tiberius said: Vast majority were totally peaceful, no kidnappings, no antipersonal bomb making, no massacres like the right wing has done. You are not being honest with yourself. How many right wing massacres have taken place in last five years. I bet you do not even know. Please answer Just telling the truth. Wars are mostly peaceful. What’s your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: You don’t have the slightest clue what’s going on in my country. Why are you even on this board? I’m not trying to run Canada. I’ll leave that to Canadians. The world is different today than 1958...you should catch up. Ps... I worked for a US company for 37 years. So stick that up where the sun don't shine. I have the right to an opinion as a neighbor looking over the fence. And by the way SoCal, what are you doing living in a flipping liberal demo state. Move before you catch the bacteria that causes you to respect others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Dub said: Thats fine, I was responding to your assertions. If you can't or don't want to take the time to back them up thats your choice. I don't enjoy trying to respond to generalizations. You can call me crazy all you want but the "Deepstate" is not as hard to believe as most on the left would like to think. What is so hard to believe about the fact that someone from outside D.C. regardless of who it is. Has plans to come in to an established way of thinking and doing business and has 90% of staffers and established politicians against them from the jump. This will dramatically affect their lives. Potentially changing the way they've been living/leaching off the people of this country for decades at least. If I was them I'd probably be nervous or against it also. Also how many of these people were leftovers appointed to their position by left leaning Dems and Republicans. Trump never drained the swamp, that is just the campaign lie he used to sway votes. Swamp? He cozied up to the likes of that chinless wonder McConnell, and became buds with that spineless flopsicle Lindsey Graham, and dug deep in the muck to install William Barr as his DOJ leader... Barr a political fixer from the old Iran Contra days. He is perfectly at home with his fellow DC swamp creatures as long as it serves his self interests. How novel. He has always been a con man. Having grown up in NJ, I had a front row seat to the man's attention-seeking antics and brushes with the law. His scandals, messy divorces, and endless string of infidelities and lawsuits. His ties to money laundering, the Gotti family, his bankruptcies. Before he had his "The Apprentice" show that somehow annointed him Warren Buffet Christ in the eyes of the gullible (yes, it is a fact that Trump's base is largely comprised of the less educated). He was Don the Con and that has not changed. I only agree with one thing during his tenure. His hard stance with China, but he blew up a perfectly good trade agreement with other Asian nations that the Obama administration worked on just because it was not his. That agreement would have been kind of useful leverage in a trade war. We find ourselves as a nation reduced, alienated from our allies, sidelined and impotent, divided and struggling while other nations lead. He was not a transformative power for good, but I will credit him for being so heinous and unfit for office that he actually created a powerful coalition of moderate Dems and GOP members who can agree he needs to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinga Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Niagara Bill said: Always vote Conservative party in Canada. Hitler was not a liberal, but trump does have similar characteristics...inciting violence, blaming other groups, accepting no responsibility, destroying and discrediting institutions, creating internal militia, racist tendancies, direct control of existing military bypassing military command protocols. No dictator is a liberal or conservative, they do what is necessary to survive to obtain their goals. trump was once a Democrat. Where the F*** did you get that idea? He was a f***ing fascist which is the extreme TO THE LEFT! He promised free healthcare and a Volkswagen in every garage for cripe sake! And what the hell do you think NAZI stands for? National Amazing Zoo Institute? No.... it means National Socialist German Workers' Party you IDIOT! Did you get that? SOCIALIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All that crap you list in this post your right, is fascism, but that fascism is all left wing by nature! I really think sometime people need to go back to school, not to learn because so many are beyond that, but to slap their teacher! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 28 minutes ago, Cinga said: Where the F*** did you get that idea? He was a f***ing fascist which is the extreme TO THE LEFT! He promised free healthcare and a Volkswagen in every garage for cripe sake! And what the hell do you think NAZI stands for? National Amazing Zoo Institute? No.... it means National Socialist German Workers' Party you IDIOT! Did you get that? SOCIALIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All that crap you list in this post your right, is fascism, but that fascism is all left wing by nature! I really think sometime people need to go back to school, not to learn because so many are beyond that, but to slap their teacher! Speaking of idiots...you my friggen friend are there leader. You can call anyone by a symbolic name, leftist, Nazi, Republican, democrate, but in the end dictators are individuals without definition. Trump is a wannabee and you are too friggen blind to see. The use of your generic terms is typical of those who are blind. Hitler was no socialist, it was a term to gain acceptance not a political position. Trump has been a democrate, and Republican...he is a power hungry wannabee dictator who is tearing down the institutions of the USA. You are a friggen blind man. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 13 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: Speaking of idiots...you my friggen friend are there leader. You can call anyone by a symbolic name, leftist, Nazi, Republican, democrate, but in the end dictators are individuals without definition. Trump is a wannabee and you are too friggen blind to see. The use of your generic terms is typical of those who are blind. Hitler was no socialist, it was a term to gain acceptance not a political position. Trump has been a democrate, and Republican...he is a power hungry wannabee dictator who is tearing down the institutions of the USA. You are a friggen blind man. Hitler wasn't a socialist even though he described himself as such, but he was "right-wing" because liberals say so. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinga Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, Rob's House said: Hitler wasn't a socialist even though he described himself as such, but he was "right-wing" because liberals say so. I know right? Sometimes I feel the need to slap myself for even trying to educate such dimwitted idiots as this guy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Just now, Cinga said: I know right? Sometimes I feel the need to slap myself for even trying to educate such dimwitted idiots as this guy! You're trying to pump a dry well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 3 hours ago, WideNine said: 2 blocks of trouble in a large city is not justification for usurping the rights that states have to address their own policing needs and certainly does not justify an overreach of sending in federal militia. Protection details around federal buildings to discourage vandalism is within their jurisdiction, unmarked DHS vans rounding up citizens and patrolling the streets, not-so-much. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/20/us/portland-protester-navy-veteran-beaten/index.html Trump does not understand the mandate that leaders have towards taking the appropriate actions to deescalate conflict - rather, he irresponsibly pours gas on conflicts, leverages rifts between groups for his own gain, works to sow discord, and fosters wild conspiracy theories that resonate with idiot radical armed militias and take root in impressionable 17 year old children whose ding-bat mothers then drive to a protest armed with an assault rifle. What could possibly go wrong when you have a President that uses DHS as his personal militia, appeals to armed fascist militias, and armed impressionable kids. Violence escalates and people end up killed. This kid panicked and fired wildly into a crowd while falling to the the ground after getting into a confrontation and shooting another man. This is why states and cities should handle their own policing not free-lancing armed idiots. We have a President who is incapable of leading in a way that can bridge differences, find compromises, and peacefully move our country forward. It really is that simple, and we do need reform in our policing and that is not as simple as just somehow eradicating racism from the human psyche, but we can make progress with policies that reduce guns on our streets, provide more oversight and transparency in our policing, removal of "bad" cops, and true justice for those harmed by police excessive force. "What strikes me about the talking points is that they didn't call for calm among the public,” said Elizabeth Neumann, who served as DHS's assistant secretary for threat prevention and security policy in the Trump administration. “Even in the early hours after the incident, it was known private militias had self-deployed. …They seemed more interested in Rittenhouse's reputation than calling for calm and actual law and order.” Neumann, who left the Trump administration in April, recently endorsed former Vice President Joe Biden for president. Your analysis of the Rittenhouse saga seems at odds with the videos of the incident. It seems to me that the expectation you have is similar to others we’ve seen in this board,: which can be summarized as “Mayhem and a good old fashioned beating can be really peaceful if you acquiesce.”. As for Elizabeth Neumann, she seems on board with peaceful rioting, destruction of private property, rage in the streets and beating a fellow citizen about the head and body—apparently until the one being beaten pushes back as some people ultimately do. THEN, and apparently only then, should a call be issued for calm and order. Sounds like a tragic loss for the team. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 38 minutes ago, Cinga said: Where the F*** did you get that idea? He was a f***ing fascist which is the extreme TO THE LEFT! He promised free healthcare and a Volkswagen in every garage for cripe sake! And what the hell do you think NAZI stands for? National Amazing Zoo Institute? No.... it means National Socialist German Workers' Party you IDIOT! Did you get that? SOCIALIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All that crap you list in this post your right, is fascism, but that fascism is all left wing by nature! I really think sometime people need to go back to school, not to learn because so many are beyond that, but to slap their teacher! An incorrect definition created by linking a label to a political system. You could create a political party called the Freedom Party then take power and proceed to lock everyone who disagreed with you up. Would you then define "Freedom" as a practice of locking people up? Fascism Description Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. so·cial·ism /ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/ noun a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, WideNine said: An incorrect definition created by linking a label to a political system. You could create a political party called the Freedom Party then take power and proceed to lock everyone who disagreed with you up. Would you then define "Freedom" as a practice of locking people up? Fascism Description Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. so·cial·ism /ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/ noun a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. Pot meet kettle. As I said: "Hitler wasn't a socialist even though he described himself as such, but he was "right-wing" because liberals say so." 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 19 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Your analysis of the Rittenhouse saga seems at odds with the videos of the incident. It seems to me that the expectation you have is similar to others we’ve seen in this board,: which can be summarized as “Mayhem and a good old fashioned beating can be really peaceful if you acquiesce.”. As for Elizabeth Neumann, she seems on board with peaceful rioting, destruction of private property, rage in the streets and beating a fellow citizen about the head and body—apparently until the one being beaten pushes back as some people ultimately do. THEN, and apparently only then, should a call be issued for calm and order. Sounds like a tragic loss for the team. It was dumb of a 17 year old kid to travel to a protest armed with an assault rifle. Like somehow the local trained authorities needed the assistance of armed noobs. I stand by that assessment and the predictable, lethal, and avoidable outcome. This is the very escalation problem folks are pointing out that Trump's irresponsible rhetoric leads to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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