Its time for these Josh hating "experts" to ask for their crow

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Yep. Some in the national sports media will never be able to fully admit to themselves they were wrong about him. For them, a typical review of Allen's play would be:

 

"He threw for over 300 yards, accounted for 5 touchdowns, and led his team to the game winning touchdown, at the end of the game, to beat a very good Rams team, BUT... (insert choice of negative play here)" 

 

 

 

But made bonehead plays, fumbled, got Not one but TWO personal fouls 

 

 

what they will omit ....  
then overcame his anger and produced a win 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, H2o said:

This was Stefon's advice to Josh about dealing with haters.

 

He is a beautiful man.

[McBean]

10 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

PFF, Ledlard I am talking to you and your ilk

Jeremy White blocked me yesterday because I said same exact thing.

 

Him and Schoop were the ring leaders.
 

Zero accountability 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I also hated the pick at the time, and was a "wrong josher". That didn't last too long, and I like to think I started to come around last year.

 

I also do want to ask: who here saw this coming, to the extent that he's started? 

I hoped for improvement. I would have been happy with a 250 yard per game average and a 65-68% completion rate. I did NOT see second in the NFL in yards per game and passing touchdowns with a 71.1% completion rate. It's even more encouraging to see the kinds of passes that have been made: ones with touch, placed where no one else could have had a chance on it. that makes me happier than the raw numbers.

[Blokestradamus]

2 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

That’s a good start. 

 

Seriously though, there’s nothing wrong with being wrong. Two things play into how sweet this feels:

 

1- from a national media perspective, Josh has always been judged at a higher standard than the other QB’s from his class. Just look at the excuses still being made for Darnold- yes his team is terrible, but he’s awful. Josh can have a brilliant game (3rd straight) and still get lambasted about a couple mistakes while the media trips over itself to cover Darnold and Mayfield with excuses (just like they did for Rosen) 

 

2- There’s a special sense of victory around these parts as going into the 2018 draft there was a very heated divisiveness around here wherein the majority wanted Rosen (hence the term “right Josh”) and viewed anyone who preferred Allen/didn’t like Rosen as intellectually inferior. It went beyond the typical “I prefer this guy, and I think that guy won’t do well” and was down right hostile to anyone who didn’t see Rosen as the obvious pick or dared to point out his issues. Now, that was from a vocal few primarily (some really idiots who are now gone cause they’re schmucks), but the majority here was anti-Allen, so for those of us who have been pro Allen since pre- April ‘18, this is a nice level of vindication. 

 

We have talked about the contributary factors surrounding the Right/Wrong Josh debate before. I'm sure that anyone unaware could work it out but I'll skip over them because of Scott's mandate posted recently. Safe to say though that the debate wasn't always 100% based on on-field performance.

 

I do wonder if Josh is held to a higher standard not simply because of who he is or who he plays for but also about who was selected the year prior with the pick the Bills traded out of. Rightly or wrongly, Mahomes and Allen will be intrinsically linked, if only for the sake of playing What If? I should know, I played that game frequently

 

I don't blame anyone for backing Josh to the hilt, nor do I blame them for feeling optimistic considering the standard of play we've seen so far this year. After all the barren years, we should all enjoy the success that seems to be on its way. However, I'm going to draw a line at borderline character assassination in the pursuit of said pound of flesh.

[LB3]

40 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

That’s a good start. 
 

 

Seriously though, there’s nothing wrong with being wrong. Two things play into how sweet this feels:

 

1- from a national media perspective, Josh has always been judged at a higher standard than the other QB’s from his class. Just look at the excuses still being made for Darnold- yes his team is terrible, but he’s awful. Josh can have a brilliant game (3rd straight) and still get lambasted about a couple mistakes while the media trips over itself to cover Darnold and Mayfield with excuses (just like they did for Rosen) 

 

2- There’s a special sense of victory around these parts as going into the 2018 draft there was a very heated divisiveness around here wherein the majority wanted Rosen (hence the term “right Josh”) and viewed anyone who preferred Allen/didn’t like Rosen as intellectually inferior. It went beyond the typical “I prefer this guy, and I think that guy won’t do well” and was down right hostile to anyone who didn’t see Rosen as the obvious pick or dared to point out his issues. Now, that was from a vocal few primarily (some really idiots who are now gone cause they’re schmucks), but the majority here was anti-Allen, so for those of us who have been pro Allen since pre- April ‘18, this is a nice level of vindication. 

The Right Josh thing really broke 26.

[whatdrought]

29 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

We have talked about the contributary factors surrounding the Right/Wrong Josh debate before. I'm sure that anyone unaware could work it out but I'll skip over them because of Scott's mandate posted recently. Safe to say though that the debate wasn't always 100% based on on-field performance.

 

I do wonder if Josh is held to a higher standard not simply because of who he is or who he plays for but also about who was selected the year prior with the pick the Bills traded out of. Rightly or wrongly, Mahomes and Allen will be intrinsically linked, if only for the sake of playing What If? I should know, I played that game frequently

 

I don't blame anyone for backing Josh to the hilt, nor do I blame them for feeling optimistic considering the standard of play we've seen so far this year. After all the barren years, we should all enjoy the success that seems to be on its way. However, I'm going to draw a line at borderline character assassination in the pursuit of said pound of flesh.

 

Right, but that was all icing. You couldn't make an argument against Rosen's attitude and character without it being assumed you disagreed with him politically. It was a blind spot for a major part of this board and while I'm sure some did dislike him for that reason, many of us saw him for what he was (and what he's been revealed to be) a guy who thought he was better than he was and was unlikely to succeed. We got lambasted for 4 months on that opinion but the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. 

 

That makes some sense, though I think it's unfair. Overall he was for whatever reason the whipping boy of the "new wave" analysts that care about their specific models and have no room for allowing divergents. Those are the national guys who have refused to give him any credit for his improvement and growth and are now like "wow, Josh Allen can play" while hoping we all forget their complete dishonesty about his development over the past two years as well as their seeing him and judging him against the as mentioned higher standard. Some have come out and owned it, which is good. 

 

I completely agree. Let the good times roll! 

 

I don't care to assassinate anyone's character, but there are a few posters who threw fits when we took "wrong josh" and then disappeared whenever it was shown they were wrong. I have no time for such feeble minded fiends. Those who had their views on Josh and are now admitting that they may have been wrong I'm fine with. 

[eball]

1 hour ago, No_Matter_What said:

 

 

Enjoy. For my taste too many people now claim that they believed in him. Truth is that at least 80% of this board hated the pick (and only started to hope after the draft). I will dig draft thread somewhere and when we were on the clock there were like 2-3 people wanting / cheering for Allen and rest (90+%) wanted Rosen. But I don't blame anybody, I am Bills fan only like 5 years but I can understand scepticism of Bills fans who have gone through all drough years and mediocre to bad quarterbacking.

 

Oh that was a fun quick read-through.  A few guys really stood out with their histrionics...Wayne Arnold predicted Beane and McD would be fired after the 2019 season.  And of course Biscuits & Gravy was front and center with gems like this:

 

"The more I think about this, the more he sounds like Christian Hackenberg.  He looks like he should be awesome.  Everyone blamed everyone around him for why he wasn’t better, including his coach who became awesome after CH left."

 

There's some comedy gold in that thread. 

[Beast]

I didn't know what to think of him. When I actually witnessed him play in the NFL, I came out and said he reminded me of John Elway when Elway was young.  I didn't say I expected him to have an Elway-like career, just his play did as a rookie. Very raw, and made stupid decisions but, man, what an athlete!

 

Today, my comparison would be to that of a combination of John Elway and Brett Favre. Ballsy, sometimes stupid, a great leader and is turning into a hell of a thrower.

 

The kid is a keeper.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Beast

[whatdrought]

I seem to remember Dan Orlovsky having mixed feelings on Josh, but here he is pounding the table for him as MVP:

 

 

 

 

[Blokestradamus]

38 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Right, but that was all icing. You couldn't make an argument against Rosen's attitude and character without it being assumed you disagreed with him politically. It was a blind spot for a major part of this board and while I'm sure some did dislike him for that reason, many of us saw him for what he was (and what he's been revealed to be) a guy who thought he was better than he was and was unlikely to succeed. We got lambasted for 4 months on that opinion but the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. 

 

That makes some sense, though I think it's unfair. Overall he was for whatever reason the whipping boy of the "new wave" analysts that care about their specific models and have no room for allowing divergents. Those are the national guys who have refused to give him any credit for his improvement and growth and are now like "wow, Josh Allen can play" while hoping we all forget their complete dishonesty about his development over the past two years as well as their seeing him and judging him against the as mentioned higher standard. Some have come out and owned it, which is good. 

 

I completely agree. Let the good times roll! 

 

I don't care to assassinate anyone's character, but there are a few posters who threw fits when we took "wrong josh" and then disappeared whenever it was shown they were wrong. I have no time for such feeble minded fiends. Those who had their views on Josh and are now admitting that they may have been wrong I'm fine with. 

 

Josh Rosen was a tough one for me in terms of his character. He seemed obviously atypical in comparison with most of his peers and he did seem to polarise opinion amongst the people around him as much as the wider football public. I'll admit that I saw quite a bit of myself in Josh Rosen and maybe that made things harder for me to judge accurately. I have noticed within the past 2-3 years that my personality type doesn't seem to mesh with "football culture" and maybe he's much the same. I would like to take this opportunity to apologise to anyone that I talked down to over the issue at the time because I know that I was guilty of that.

 

I also think it's unfair to hold Josh to any different standard than anyone else but I think the Mahomes factor plays a part in that. Especially damaging with Mahomes being a year ahead in terms of development and using Mahomes' success as a stick to beat Allen with. I suppose it's human nature to think "Look at what you could've won" when one seemingly hits the ground running in ideal circumstances while the other is part of a systemic rebuild.

 

I don't begrudge Josh any success because he seems like a good lad. To be perfectly honest, this is about the first time I've talked about him in any level of depth since he was drafted. I decided to keep my mouth shut and let him develop. I know that I have some pretty distinct bias regarding his play style and I wasn't interested in jumping into the debate every time he did something wrong.

 

All I would say is that player evaluation isn't often personal; if an obstinate percentage want to stick with their bias as the evidence changes, those people deserve to be questioned. I just have a particular disdain for the culture of piling on everyone that had doubts as being some kind of 'hater'. Also, big pre-draft fan of Dion Dawkins and Matt Milano, praise me for that!

Edited September 28, 2020 by Blokestradamus

[Bangarang]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

They should be lined up and shot. I started by shooting myself though so someone will need to reload my gun.

Let’s hope nobody brings up the Allen’s draft day thread. 😬

[chris heff]

1 hour ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

 

But made bonehead plays, fumbled, got Not one but TWO personal fouls 

 

 

what they will omit ....  
then overcame his anger and produced a win 

The face mask personal foul actually helped the Bills, if he doesn’t do it he gets sacked, but because of penalty it ended up as about the same loss of yards, but saved the down.

[whatdrought]

1 minute ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

Josh Rosen was a tough one for me in terms of his character. He seemed obviously atypical in comparison with most of his peers and he did seem to polarise opinion amongst the people around him as much as the wider football public. I'll admit that I saw quite a bit of myself in Josh Rosen and maybe that made things harder for me to judge accurately. I have noticed within the past 2-3 years that my personality type doesn't seem to mesh with "football culture" and maybe he's much the same. I would like to take this opportunity to apologise to anyone that I talked down to over the issue at the time because I know that I was guilty of that.

 

I also think it's unfair to hold Josh to any different standard than anyone else but I think the Mahomes factor plays a part in that. Especially damaging with Mahomes being a year ahead in terms of development and using Mahomes' success as a stick to beat Allen with. I suppose it's human nature to think "Look at what you could've won" when one seemingly hits the ground running in ideal circumstances while the other is part of a systemic rebuild.

 

I don't begrudge Josh any success because he seems like a good lad. To be perfectly honest, this is about the first time I've talked about him in any level of depth since he was drafted. I decided to keep my mouth shut and let him develop. I know that I have some pretty distinct bias regarding his play style and I wasn't interested in jumping into the debate every time he did something wrong.

 

All I would say is that player evaluation isn't often personal; if an obstinent percentage want to stick with their bias as the evidence changes, those people deserve to be questioned. I just have a particular disdain for the culture of piling on everyone that had doubts as being some kind of 'hater'. Also, big pre-draft fan of Dion Dawkins and Matt Milano, praise me for that!

 

I get that. With Rosen my big red flag was the sheer number of people coming out assuring us that he didn't have character concerns and that he was actually a leader and team first guy... There's a difference between the natural level of propping up that a guy gets in the draft process, and when we see a concerted effort to change a narrative that almost seems like it's trying too hard... If that makes sense. I also didn't see any elite traits with him and any time a guy gets the "he's so smart he can win with his mind" tag, it's questionable to me cause you can't tell that until he gets to the bigs. For what it's worth, I have no memory of you being one of the aforementioned luddites who took their love of Rosen beyond opinion and to self assured facts. 

 

Yeah, Mahomes is an all time great no doubt, but it's just disingenuous to say the bills should have known and drafted him. At the end of the day, only one team had an idea of what he really was and made the play for him. 10 teams passed on him, and 21 other teams didn't truly know what was coming or else the Bills would have gotten much more for the pick. It's all revisionist history. McD made the decision he did for a reason, and it's working out quite nicely for the Bills who are built for longterm success and have the QB coming into his own at just the right time. 

 

That's really what it comes down to. I've been wrong on so many players so I don't begrudge those who were wrong on Allen- For me it's simple: treat your opinion like your opinion, and be flexible with the results. For whatever reason there were many here that struggled to do that with Allen. 

[Real McClappy]

29 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Oh that was a fun quick read-through.  A few guys really stood out with their histrionics...Wayne Arnold predicted Beane and McD would be fired after the 2019 season.  And of course Biscuits & Gravy was front and center with gems like this:

 

"The more I think about this, the more he sounds like Christian Hackenberg.  He looks like he should be awesome.  Everyone blamed everyone around him for why he wasn’t better, including his coach who became awesome after CH left."

 

There's some comedy gold in that thread. 

Why necropost a draft day thread? There was a ton of emotion during that draft for our fans. I flat out wanted Rosen or Lamar Jackson with the pick and voiced my displeasure as well in so thread. It's apart of being a fan man, especially if you bleed blue like a large majority of our forum members do.

 

Within 24hrs after the JA pick, I fully supported the FO and JA 100% and have not looked back.

[Blokestradamus]

20 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

I get that. With Rosen my big red flag was the sheer number of people coming out assuring us that he didn't have character concerns and that he was actually a leader and team first guy... There's a difference between the natural level of propping up that a guy gets in the draft process, and when we see a concerted effort to change a narrative that almost seems like it's trying too hard... If that makes sense. I also didn't see any elite traits with him and any time a guy gets the "he's so smart he can win with his mind" tag, it's questionable to me cause you can't tell that until he gets to the bigs. For what it's worth, I have no memory of you being one of the aforementioned luddites who took their love of Rosen beyond opinion and to self assured facts. 

 

Yeah, Mahomes is an all time great no doubt, but it's just disingenuous to say the bills should have known and drafted him. At the end of the day, only one team had an idea of what he really was and made the play for him. 10 teams passed on him, and 21 other teams didn't truly know what was coming or else the Bills would have gotten much more for the pick. It's all revisionist history. McD made the decision he did for a reason, and it's working out quite nicely for the Bills who are built for longterm success and have the QB coming into his own at just the right time. 

 

That's really what it comes down to. I've been wrong on so many players so I don't begrudge those who were wrong on Allen- For me it's simple: treat your opinion like your opinion, and be flexible with the results. For whatever reason there were many here that struggled to do that with Allen. 

 

I don't remember any specifics on what I said but I know myself well enough that I was probably pretty disrespectful to at least a few people. Especially when it comes to talking about someone that I see as something of a mirror image of myself (apart from the hot tub, that was a ***** massive red flag).

 

The timing with Mahomes just wasn't right and I can accept that. I was a pretty vocal advocate of his but in the grand scheme of things, they probably made the right decision to defer a QB pick given the instability within the front office at the time. Ending up with Tre and ammo for the year after definitely adds positives to that side of the argument. Hopefully, Josh can start to be seen on something of a level footing to Mahomes and the rest of his peers because he's certainly trending in the right direction.

 

The biggest thing for me going forward (and I'd imagine similarly for @GunnerBill) is trying to work out what lessons to take from this. Is Josh just truly an outlier that's bucking the norms or did I miss something more fundamental with him?

Edited September 28, 2020 by Blokestradamus

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, chris heff said:

The face mask personal foul actually helped the Bills, if he doesn’t do it he gets sacked, but because of penalty it ended up as about the same loss of yards, but saved the down.

 

I think that's a stretch, myself.  The best outcome would have been a throwaway: no penalty, no loss of yards, no risk of injury to Allen's arm.

But that's just not Allen's first instinct.

 

The real need is to sort the protection issues.

[goldenboy81]

I got a friend that says Allen and tannehill are the same quarterback, I don't know if it's the ignorance of being a fin fan or what. Sent him this form haha

[whatdrought]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think that's a stretch, myself.  The best outcome would have been a throwaway: no penalty, no loss of yards, no risk of injury to Allen's arm.

But that's just not Allen's first instinct.

 

The real need is to sort the protection issues.

and the solution could be as simple as thanking god we only play Aaron Donald once this year. 😛

[John from Riverside]

 

6 hours ago, Blokestradamus said:

I'll never understand this absolute obsession with getting a pound of flesh.

 

I didn't like Josh as a prospect. What do you want to do; fly me over the Atlantic and publically flog me outside of the stadium?

 

The amount of hatred for being 'wrong' is not commensurate to the praise when you're right.

Bloke.....do you run a website like you are some kind of authority on draft prospects.....then when given ample opportunity to revisit it later continue to double down on it.

 

This is not directed at the fans.....we are all wrong on players......these are the guys that  were wrong and hang onto that opinion like a pitball on his bone.....like say.....Ledlard and PFF