Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 24 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said: What if the person assigned to grade your SAT happens to have an inherent bias against you? Like maybe their pre-dra...err pre-SAT predictions had you tabbed to be the worst...student...of all time and they don't want to admit they were wrong? You don't think there would at least be some level of subconscious bias to grade you a bit more harshly on each question? I think that notion is far-fetched; I think where the bias you allude to may operate is when the PFF commentators are writing articles and yapping - er, I mean commenting - about Allen. If I understand their system correctly, they have a group of workers grading each QB play - three or something like that. Those aren't the people who made the pre-draft predictions, they have no skin in the game, it's highly doubtful they have a particular bias against Allen, they're just flunkies trained to grade a play using specified metrics. So they do their thing, and their grades get averaged or added or whatever it is PFF does in their Special Secret Sauce, then all the play grades get added and multiplied and crunched and munched. It's hard to conceive that all the flunkies have an anti Allen bias. It's supposed to be objective, but the key point - it's objective using the specified metrics. So if the metrics are flawed or biased, the grade will be flawed or biased. I think there is bias, but it's more impersonal and deeper into the system. It's a grading system designed to penalize risk and incentivize caution, and it doesn't look at game outcomes or offensive productivity. That's why you can get a QB like Darnold who passed for only 179 yds and 1 TD in a loss, but who completed a high percentage and didn't put the football at risk, graded higher than Allen. That's how you get a QB like Tyrod Taylor in 2016 with the Bills rated as the #11 QB that year. He passed for only 200 ypg on average, and only 17 TD in 15 games, but by jinks he didn't throw "interceptable balls" like the guided missile Diggs tucked away despite two defenders who were right there trying to pluck it. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 24 minutes ago, VW82 said: Hmm...so every person they hire to grade is expected to uphold the same anti-Allen bias? Maybe it's as simple as their system doesn't like QBs who make mistakes (and Josh makes a lot of them) and undervalue the fact that Josh is a stud who does studly things on the football field. This... 17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think that notion is far-fetched; I think where the bias you allude to may operate is when the PFF commentators are writing articles and yapping - er, I mean commenting - about Allen. If I understand their system correctly, they have a group of workers grading each QB play - three or something like that. Those aren't the people who made the pre-draft predictions, they have no skin in the game, it's highly doubtful they have a particular bias against Allen, they're just flunkies trained to grade a play using specified metrics. So they do their thing, and their grades get averaged or added or whatever it is PFF does in their Special Secret Sauce, then all the play grades get added and multiplied and crunched and munched. It's hard to conceive that all the flunkies have an anti Allen bias. It's supposed to be objective, but the key point - it's objective using the specified metrics. So if the metrics are flawed or biased, the grade will be flawed or biased. I think there is bias, but it's more impersonal and deeper into the system. It's a grading system designed to penalize risk and incentivize caution, and it doesn't look at game outcomes or offensive productivity. That's why you can get a QB like Darnold who passed for only 179 yds and 1 TD in a loss, but who completed a high percentage and didn't put the football at risk, graded higher than Allen. That's how you get a QB like Tyrod Taylor in 2016 with the Bills rated as the #11 QB that year. He passed for only 200 ypg on average, and only 17 TD in 15 games, but by jinks he didn't throw "interceptable balls" like the guided missile Diggs tucked away despite two defenders who were right there trying to pluck it. ...and this, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albany,n.y. Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 8 hours ago, K-9 said: Can you imagine walking into a team’s front office and trying to convince them that Darnold outplayed Josh Allen yesterday? Adam Gase went into the Jets front office & told them that Darnold outplayed every other QB and that he's the only coach Darnold will ever need. Meanwhile Woody Johnson is over in Britain going over a binder full of coaching prospects while his brother tries to get Woody Trevor Lawrence as a welcome home present. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albany,n.y. Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think that notion is far-fetched; I think where the bias you allude to may operate is when the PFF commentators are writing articles and yapping - er, I mean commenting - about Allen. If I understand their system correctly, they have a group of workers grading each QB play - three or something like that. Those aren't the people who made the pre-draft predictions, they have no skin in the game, it's highly doubtful they have a particular bias against Allen, they're just flunkies trained to grade a play using specified metrics. So they do their thing, and their grades get averaged or added or whatever it is PFF does in their Special Secret Sauce, then all the play grades get added and multiplied and crunched and munched. It's hard to conceive that all the flunkies have an anti Allen bias. It's supposed to be objective, but the key point - it's objective using the specified metrics. So if the metrics are flawed or biased, the grade will be flawed or biased. I think there is bias, but it's more impersonal and deeper into the system. It's a grading system designed to penalize risk and incentivize caution, and it doesn't look at game outcomes or offensive productivity. That's why you can get a QB like Darnold who passed for only 179 yds and 1 TD in a loss, but who completed a high percentage and didn't put the football at risk, graded higher than Allen. That's how you get a QB like Tyrod Taylor in 2016 with the Bills rated as the #11 QB that year. He passed for only 200 ypg on average, and only 17 TD in 15 games, but by jinks he didn't throw "interceptable balls" like the guided missile Diggs tucked away despite two defenders who were right there trying to pluck it. One thing is for certain, whatever their method is, none of their staff knows how to watch a football game. I've said it many times: There's a reason NFL players, coaches, scouts,, and GMs watch hours of film. If stats told the whole story they could cut their study time to virtually nothing by printing out stats, meeting and going around the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said: One thing is for certain, whatever their method is, none of their staff knows how to watch a football game. I've said it many times: There's a reason NFL players, coaches, scouts,, and GMs watch hours of film. If stats told the whole story they could cut their study time to virtually nothing by printing out stats, meeting and going around the room. This is a good point, imo. Stats are a result of what the is being evaluated on the film. Sometimes I get the impression that the PFFs of the world think it’s the other way around. I’m not dismissing analytics, far from it, and I’m not suggesting that football is so complicated that it’s impossible to know what you’re watching on a play by play basis. But unless you have the full context of every play, it’s an incomplete analysis, and only those on the inside that are privy to ALL the information have the proper context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think that notion is far-fetched; I think where the bias you allude to may operate is when the PFF commentators are writing articles and yapping - er, I mean commenting - about Allen. If I understand their system correctly, they have a group of workers grading each QB play - three or something like that. Those aren't the people who made the pre-draft predictions, they have no skin in the game, it's highly doubtful they have a particular bias against Allen, they're just flunkies trained to grade a play using specified metrics. So they do their thing, and their grades get averaged or added or whatever it is PFF does in their Special Secret Sauce, then all the play grades get added and multiplied and crunched and munched. It's hard to conceive that all the flunkies have an anti Allen bias. It's supposed to be objective, but the key point - it's objective using the specified metrics. So if the metrics are flawed or biased, the grade will be flawed or biased. I think there is bias, but it's more impersonal and deeper into the system. It's a grading system designed to penalize risk and incentivize caution, and it doesn't look at game outcomes or offensive productivity. That's why you can get a QB like Darnold who passed for only 179 yds and 1 TD in a loss, but who completed a high percentage and didn't put the football at risk, graded higher than Allen. That's how you get a QB like Tyrod Taylor in 2016 with the Bills rated as the #11 QB that year. He passed for only 200 ypg on average, and only 17 TD in 15 games, but by jinks he didn't throw "interceptable balls" like the guided missile Diggs tucked away despite two defenders who were right there trying to pluck it. Mostly to your second point. I'm pretty sure they got on Allen for only having 6.8 ypa in week 1 even though mahomes had 6.6. They might not be the people that did the pre draft scouting but you know these interns are being told to make Allen look bad. Edited September 22, 2020 by The Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ManRaid Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 45 minutes ago, VW82 said: Hmm...so every person they hire to grade is expected to uphold the same anti-Allen bias? Maybe it's as simple as their system doesn't like QBs who make mistakes (and Josh makes a lot of them) and undervalue the fact that Josh is a stud who does studly things on the football field. My hypothesis is that their system punishes Josh for having faith in his stud receivers to pull in contested catches and sideline/diving grabs, because their system grades the tight coverage as a "bad decision" to throw into. Favors safe plays and boring "game managers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ManRaid Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 18 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said: One thing is for certain, whatever their method is, none of their staff knows how to watch a football game. I've said it many times: There's a reason NFL players, coaches, scouts,, and GMs watch hours of film. If stats told the whole story they could cut their study time to virtually nothing by printing out stats, meeting and going around the room. I think it's just more proof that standardized testing is ruining the education system. These PFF tools were probably taught to assign a black and white score to everything, with no room for nuance or insight, and built their company on that principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelius Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 (edited) It's so incredibly petty. I don't get why some of these dorks have quadrupled down on their terrible Josh Allen opinion. I don't think I've really seen anything like it before. He was amazing yesterday, by any standard, and yet some of these fools are going out of their way not to talk about it. For example and equally as petty, Yahoo also hates on Allen every possible chance they get. If you play fantasy football on that site, you know that they love to add smug, little analytical updates for players immediately after every game. Immediately. If a guy gets two targets, Yahoo will provide their take on it. As of right now they have still not offered any "analysis" or even comment for Allen's game yesterday. I mean they even have an updated comment on Dawson Knox but conveniently nothing about Allen, it's just butthurt insanity. Edited September 22, 2020 by Nelius 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said: PFF is awesome! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 I've had a change of heart on PFF. I mean it's not like anyone cares what they say all they're doing is giving Josh free bulletin board material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 8 minutes ago, eball said: PFF is awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 At least the rest of the team is good enough to balance out the terrible quarterback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 16 hours ago, 1ManRaid said: My hypothesis is that their system punishes Josh for having faith in his stud receivers to pull in contested catches and sideline/diving grabs, because their system grades the tight coverage as a "bad decision" to throw into. Favors safe plays and boring "game managers". So fundamentally, that's what a couple of us have been saying - as far as the QB grade, it's not that their graders are biased against Allen, it's that their system is biased against a QB who trusts his WR and his arm and will make throws into tight quarters, and it favors safe plays. It doesn't penalize a QB for failing to generate much offense with his arm. We are in violent agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCOrange Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said: One thing is for certain, whatever their method is, none of their staff knows how to watch a football game. I've said it many times: There's a reason NFL players, coaches, scouts,, and GMs watch hours of film. If stats told the whole story they could cut their study time to virtually nothing by printing out stats, meeting and going around the room. I'm a bit confused by this post. This is supposed to be an argument against PFF's grading system? The one that is based on watching film and ignoring the stats? PFF tries to cover the full spectrum. Their grading is based on the film while they also track their own stats such as accuracy percentages, broken tackles, etc. but the grades that everyone mocks because they hate Allen is based on the film rather than his stats. Edited September 22, 2020 by DCOrange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirAllenPower Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 I'm curious how pff would grade John Elway and Brett Favre Seriously 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albany,n.y. Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 40 minutes ago, DCOrange said: I'm a bit confused by this post. This is supposed to be an argument against PFF's grading system? The one that is based on watching film and ignoring the stats? PFF tries to cover the full spectrum. Their grading is based on the film while they also track their own stats such as accuracy percentages, broken tackles, etc. but the grades that everyone mocks because they hate Allen is based on the film rather than his stats. Why the confusion? I think my 1st sentence covers your confusion. They don't know what the heck they're watching. If they don't understand what they are watching, their grading system is meaningless. It's like if I watch a film in another language, I'm not going to understand what's going on. It's like viewing football is a foreign language to them. They don't understand what they're watching. To be honest, I have no idea how they come up with their grades, hence my mentioning stats, but it's obvious they don't know how to watch a football game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted September 23, 2020 Author Share Posted September 23, 2020 What are the other two games they graded him higher in? Dallas and...? Either way they are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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