Oops....Dolphins lose Rookie Weaver to browns

[FireChans]

45 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Thanks. What is to stop teams gaming that system? "Broken toe? That is 10 months mate." But also am I right that they could have PUP'd him until cutdowns and then IR'd him? Had they done that though he still counts against the 80?

Probably the same system that regulates the falsifying of injury reports, just the other way. 
 

IIRC, PUP is only allowed if it’s a previous injury or something right? Like when a player got hurt the year before and is still rehabbing or someone tears their ACL doing outside stuff. 

[JerseyBills]

12 hours ago, DCbillsfan said:

What a waste of a 5th rd pick.  Like you mentioned, the Bills put Joseph on IR last year so what's up with the Fish?  Either poor roster management or a bad pick to start.  Not a good look for the Fish either way.

Seems like a massive blunder by F.O. 

How could they even determine anything from him in a few weeks of practice so far? Mind Boggling. A 5th is no small investment 

[Rochesterfan]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Thanks. What is to stop teams gaming that system? "Broken toe? That is 10 months mate." But also am I right that they could have PUP'd him until cutdowns and then IR'd him? Had they done that though he still counts against the 80?

 

I believe the idea is that the player has to agree to the designation to try and help prevent gaming the system.  The team cannot just IR the player.  
 

Also if they IR at this point - it is for the season - so if a player feels he is going to only miss a few weeks - there is little incentive to agree to full season IR.  So many players at this point want to wait - make the final roster and then go on IR with a designation to return.
 

PUP I thought was only a pre training camp designation or if a player is injured away from the field.  One training camp hits all injuries are considered IR type injuries and they have to decide what to.  
 

Similar to Josh Norman right now for the Bills - he is injured, but counting against the roster.  They can not free up that space without deciding that the injury will force him to miss at least 6 weeks - then they could IR him, but he is done for the season.

 

I definitely think some teams do “game the system” and use an injury like this to IR a young player and give him a year to really learn and grow, but I think there has to be some mutual respect and understanding between player and team. Heck - I think the Bills may have used it last year to stash Joseph with a shoulder injury.  
 

I think the system worked perfectly for this - a young player with a minor injury that will cause him to miss 4 weeks or so.  Years ago - The team could just stash him on IR and prevent him from playing for 2020.  Now - they either had to hold on to him until after training camp or take a chance and waive him and bring him back as injured where they can then reactivate him as needed.  If you think he is a cornerstone - you hold him and IR him to return - remember this come with the fact that not only do you lose him for the last 2 weeks, but he has to make you final roster - meaning you are cutting someone else that you (and other teams) may value.  If you want the position- you waive him and take a chance.  

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I believe the idea is that the player has to agree to the designation to try and help prevent gaming the system.  The team cannot just IR the player.  
 

Also if they IR at this point - it is for the season - so if a player feels he is going to only miss a few weeks - there is little incentive to agree to full season IR.  So many players at this point want to wait - make the final roster and then go on IR with a designation to return.
 

PUP I thought was only a pre training camp designation or if a player is injured away from the field.  One training camp hits all injuries are considered IR type injuries and they have to decide what to.  
 

Similar to Josh Norman right now for the Bills - he is injured, but counting against the roster.  They can not free up that space without deciding that the injury will force him to miss at least 6 weeks - then they could IR him, but he is done for the season.

 

I definitely think some teams do “game the system” and use an injury like this to IR a young player and give him a year to really learn and grow, but I think there has to be some mutual respect and understanding between player and team. Heck - I think the Bills may have used it last year to stash Joseph with a shoulder injury.  
 

I think the system worked perfectly for this - a young player with a minor injury that will cause him to miss 4 weeks or so.  Years ago - The team could just stash him on IR and prevent him from playing for 2020.  Now - they either had to hold on to him until after training camp or take a chance and waive him and bring him back as injured where they can then reactivate him as needed.  If you think he is a cornerstone - you hold him and IR him to return - remember this come with the fact that not only do you lose him for the last 2 weeks, but he has to make you final roster - meaning you are cutting someone else that you (and other teams) may value.  If you want the position- you waive him and take a chance.  

 

Thanks this is really helpful. I still think it is really odd from the Dolphins perspective. And yes, the Bills definitely stashed Joseph last year. He was not making the team had been relegated to the 3rd string LB unit and they didn't want to give up on him. I even said before that final PS game "don't be surprised if Joseph comes out injured tonight" and of course, he did.

[Rochesterfan]

15 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

I don’t get it either. He wasn’t coming back this year so why not just IR him

I just looked it up, apparently they had to wait until 9/5 to IR him without the waiver process. Seems like they could have done that for a draft pick. Oops is right 

 

I have not seen anything that said he was not coming back.  
 

I believe the Dolphin thought it was a 4-6 week injury.  He could be ready by the start of the 2nd quarter of games potentially.  The ideal situation would be IR designation to return.  They used that last year on a rookie LB with a similar injury.

 

He is currently still on the Browns active roster - now they have the same choice as the Dolphins.  Do you hold on through final cuts and then IR him to return or at some point do you need a spot and you have to waive him also.

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Thanks this is really helpful. I still think it is really odd from the Dolphins perspective. And yes, the Bills definitely stashed Joseph last year. He was not making the team had been relegated to the 3rd string LB unit and they didn't want to give up on him. I even said before that final PS game "don't be surprised if Joseph comes out injured tonight" and of course, he did.

I totally agree - I would think with all of the former Pats on the Dolphins - this would have been simple.  Keep him on the roster - cut a guy that you know will not sign elsewhere and then IR him at that point.

 

Seems a bit off, but without seeing any practices - it is hard to know.  Maybe Miami was not a great fit for him and his attitude showed that and they felt it was easier to move on.  I just do not know.  
 

Seems like a huge blunder, but it is an experienced FO - so there must have been some thought behind it.

[Captain Hindsight]

13 hours ago, Billl said:

I thought there was some sort of unwritten rule that teams didn’t poach players like that.

Theres also an unwritten rule to not do something so stupid like cutting a 5th round pick to sign the 80th guy to your roster

[Victory Formation]

13 hours ago, Logic said:

Here's what I don't understand:

The Phins supposedly had to cut Weaver and expose him to waivers in order to put him on IR.

The Browns, meanwhile, were able to make space to claim Weaver by placing their OWN rookie -- Grant Delpit -- on IR. Why is it that the Browns were able to place Delpit on IR right away without exposing him to waivers, while the Dolphins were not able to do the same with Weaver?

Very confusing.

I’m right there with you... mega confusing.. I don’t get it..

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I believe it had to do with the severity of the injury and how teams want to proceed with a player. 
 

A major injury like Delpit (out for more than 6 weeks) allows teams to directly IR the player.  
 

A minor injury like Weaver (expected out less than 6 weeks) the NFL and NFLPA have agreed they can not go directly to IR to prevent teams from stashing players.  I believe the doctors have to designate an injury and then the player can also get a say if they agree to full IR or not, but the doctors must initially call it a major injury.

 

The Dolphins doctors decided it was a minor injury and therefore Weaver was likely to miss less than 6 weeks of action.  In this case - the Dolphins could not just IR the player - he would need to remain on the active roster until cutdown or they could try the waive/IR designation and free up a spot on the roster.

 

Now the question becomes what have they seen and heard from the player in the last 2 weeks and do they think he has any long term value.  The Dolphins must have thought he had little long term value and decided to risk it to try and free up the roster space.  Seems crazy to me for a guy you “snagged” as a great value pick in the 5th round, but maybe he did not show a commitment that they want to see.

 

This screams blunder because it is now officially a wasted 5th round pick that you lost for nothing, but if he was not going to practice between now and the season starting did they really want the roster spot more than the player.  We will also see what the Browns do as he will not get to practice for them at all do they keep him and cut someone else so they can move him to IR or do they expose him during cut down or try getting him on a PS where the Dolphins can steal him back later on.

 

We will see the final outcome over the next several weeks/years, but it is a really bad look for the Dolphins and a hard move to understand for the Browns with all of their current injuries, but I get it.

Got it... great explanation... thank you..

[GunnerBill]

41 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

 

Got it... great explanation... thank you..

 

It really is. @Rochesterfan would get an honour from the Queen in the UK for public service such as the post above.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

14 hours ago, Billl said:

I thought there was some sort of unwritten rule that teams didn’t poach players like that.

 

If he had a lot of salary maybe it wouldn't have happened, but he's on year 1 of a rookie deal.

[DCofNC]

Seems like a good low risk/solid reward move for the brown eyes.  I was surprised he fell as far as he did, looks like a Kelsey type, not a bad guy to have.

[Victory Formation]

57 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It really is. @Rochesterfan would get an honour from the Queen in the UK for public service such as the post above.

Whatever happened to social etiquette? Seems like ever since Donald Dump took office we have a country full of 5th graders who spout schoolyard taunts in every which way.. I threw no dirt your way, why start a fight with me? It ain’t science. At least pretend to be a decent human being..

[416BillsFan]

15 hours ago, vincec said:

Sounds like it’s unclear at this point whether the Dolphins or the Browns have messed up. We shall see,

Yeah, I was laughing at Miami but one can't assume the Browns made a smart move.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Whatever happened to social etiquette? Seems like ever since Donald Dump took office we have a country full of 5th graders who spout schoolyard taunts in every which way.. I threw no dirt your way, why start a fight with me? It ain’t science. At least pretend to be a decent human being..

 

Whereas on this side of the pond we are all extremely polite human beings. Honest.

[Victory Formation]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Whereas on this side of the pond we are all extremely polite human beings. Honest.

O, mighty one. I’m sure all 27,000 of your posts are just pure gold.. Bow down to your 13,000 reputation points.

 

He explained something that I was not familiar with and I thanked him for it. Many others had no idea how the Browns ended up with Weaver. ?

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

O, mighty one. I’m sure all 27,000 of your posts are just pure gold.. Bow down to your 13,000 reputation points.

 

He explained something that I was not familiar with and I thanked him for it. Many others had no idea how the Browns ended up with Weaver. ?

 

I thanked him for it too. I didn't understand it either. I think you may have read the post I intended as serious as being sarcastic and the one I intended as being sarcastic as being serious.....

[MAJBobby]

16 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Are we certain about this?  If your first round draft pick tears an ACL you have to waiver him in order to put him on IR?  That doesn’t sound right to me.  I think that’s only true before a certain date.

No Season ending INJ can go right to IR, (Delpit) CLE to IR (Cannot come back this year either) to make room for Weaver (not a season ending injury) who needed to be waived to revert to IR

 

18 teams put in waiver claim on him.  I wonder if Bills where one.  I mean that was almost half the league

[Victory Formation]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I thanked him for it too. I didn't understand it either. I think you may have read the post I intended as serious as being sarcastic and the one I intended as being sarcastic as being serious.....

Water under the bridge man.. ??

[Bookie Man]

Wow didn't realize Weaver fell to the 5th round. I remember seeing him mocked to Buffalo in the 2nd or 3rd round. I wanted no part him that high. 

[BarleyNY]

19 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Wow. What an absolute mess. They didn't have to waive him to IR him surely?

To get a non-vested player (less than 4 accrued seasons) to IR with a minor injury a team must:

- keep the player on the active roster until after final cut downs (9/5 at 4 pm) or

- first subject the player to waivers (with injury designation)

 

Major injuries do not have the waiver requirement. 
 

Miami effed up.

Edit: Had last year’s date. Fixed. 
 

Edited August 26, 2020 by BarleyNY

[BarleyNY]

18 hours ago, brianthomas said:

I love dogging on the fish as much as anyone, but Miami had to expose him to waivers in order to claim the roster spot. Only after he cleared waivers could they place him on IR, as a non vested player has to clear waivers first.

Its not usual for a team to take a chance on a player thats injured & claim them off waivers, as they'll have to pay him while being injured & Weaver's likely out for the whole year. Looks like they were simply rolling the dice & lost out on an intriguing prospect for the future.

Or they could’ve kept him on their roster for another week