Jump to content

2020 NFL top 100 - Josh Allen comes in at #87, Diggs #54, Tre White # 47


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

 

What are you basing this assesment on? Honest question. I am not implying otherwise, I am just a random Bills fan from Europe completely unable to recognize which offense is how complicated (I am actually contemplating starting a thread with my silly questions about things in football I still don't understand).

 

Is this some kind of universal view or your opinion? I remember discussion with another local fan of 49ers who insisted that Shanahan is running really complicated offense which Jimmy G. is able to master but Josh has no chance to execute and he also claimed that Bills run simple offense tailored to Allen.

 

So there is a lot of ways an offense can be "complicated" the idea of the E-P is actually to simplify the reads for the Quarterback but it requires a high degree of intelligence from the skill position players and their ability to adapt their routes to the defense that is being shown. It is fair to say that Josh hasn't benefitted from fantastic receivers in his time with the Bills so the complexity of the offense hasn't necessarily helped him. It does also prioritise quick reads from a Quarterback and Josh struggled with that a fair bit in 2018. In 2019 generally his best games came when he was reading quickly and getting the ball out of his hands. Not all of his holding the ball too long is on him, but a fair amount of it is. When it comes out quick the whole system works better and Josh definitely progressed (with a little blip mid-season after the first Pats game when he got a bit too "safe" for 3 or 4 weeks) in that regard in 2019.

 

Shanahan's offense is complicated for a different reason. It is a precision timing passing scheme. At its heart it is the west coast offense. Yes it works with a lot of bells and whistles and off the stretch zone run concepts that his dad added onto Walsh's creation when the OC in San Fran... but fundamentally the base passing game is the WCO. That really prioritises precise Quarterback footwork, timing and playing "on script." It was why I was one of the lone voices on this forum saying "this won't work" when we brought Rick Dennison here to run the same scheme with Tyrod Taylor. When what seemed at the time like everyone else was focusing on the packages they ran in Houston with Schaub under Kubiak where they moved the pocket and saying "Tyrod's mobility will be perfect" I was saying "he can't run the base plays." And it turned out, he couldn't. So much so that Rico wanted supposedly supported, maybe even initiated, the decision to go to Peterman. I don't think shoehorning Josh into a classic WCO would be a good idea either. That said Green Bay manager to make it work with a young Brett Favre under Mike Holmgren and there is some of that in Josh.... you just need a coach who is willing to overlook the going off script too often. Jimmy G is a perfect fit for a classic WCO. His footwork is excellent, he generally throws on time.... but he doesn't make many wow plays. He is also pretty smart. He does more at the line at this point than Josh. But that will hopefully come with experience.

 

  • Thank you (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Will he unravel against you though Colin like Baker Mayfield did? No, he won’t care. Allen said last year that he approaches this type of criticism with “Dont get bitter. Get better.”

I think it's fair to question him being on the list but to use him struggling against Beli as your main argument is silly. Who doesn't? Especially last year

Edited by CNY315
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Will he unravel against you though Colin like Baker Mayfield did? No, he won’t care. Allen said last year that he approaches this type of criticism with “Dont get bitter. Get better.”


I know that coming within two consecutive jailbreak blitzes of tying the game, on the road, for the division, against the greatest coach of all time coaching the league’s No. 1 defense is what I’d call “unraveling” ?

 

 

  • Like (+1) 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Will he unravel against you though Colin like Baker Mayfield did? No, he won’t care. Allen said last year that he approaches this type of criticism with “Dont get bitter. Get better.”

All I hear when Cowherd talked is Michael Scott

  • Haha (+1) 1
  • Awesome! (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Will he unravel against you though Colin like Baker Mayfield did? No, he won’t care. Allen said last year that he approaches this type of criticism with “Dont get bitter. Get better.”

so because allen isnt nearly as good as 2 of the top 5 players in the whole NFL(mahomes and wilson), he shouldnt be in the top 100. solid logic here.... and comparing offensive linemans one on one matchups to a qb dealing with a whole defense isnt the greatest argument. especially because he mentioned tunsil. Didnt hughes line up over him for his 3 sacks in the wildcard game?

 

this is nothing to get legitimately worked up over, but its sorta silly reasoning. Gotta agree with @GunnerBill. He just needs something to rant about during a quiet stretch.

Edited by Stank_Nasty
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

so because allen isnt nearly as good as 2 of the top 5 players in the whole NFL(mahomes and wilson), he shouldnt be in the top 100. solid logic here.... and comparing offensive linemans one on one matchups to a qb dealing with a whole defense isnt the greatest argument. especially because he mentioned tunsil. Didnt hughes line up over him for his 3 sacks in the wildcard game?

 

this is nothing to get legitimately worked up over, but its sorta silly reasoning. Gotta agree with @GunnerBill. He just needs something to rant about during a quiet stretch.

 

I like Colin. He is the best of the shock jocks when it comes to the NFL. He actually hits on some stuff in the course of his hot takes and he doesn't die on his hills when the evidence changes. 

  • Like (+1) 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

He was atrocious up until the throw to Knox before halftime. 

If he’d have hit Knox in the endzone on the last drive, that would have been the best drive of his career.  That game is a perfect microcosm of him being a better football player than a QB.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Honest question: if we had Andy Dalton (I’d out as the cutoff as an average NFL starter), what do you think our record would have been last year?

 

and I hope you are right about the top 10 qb but I think you might be a tad optimistic.  But I will be pleasantly shocked and happy.  


Dalton is solid, and I don’t know what we look like with him last year.  Allen’s mobility led to a lot of production.  Dalton I think would have struggled behind our pass pro last year personally.  
 

Im definitely optimistic on Allen, I mean I truly believe he’s gonna be a consensus top 10 QB by years end.  He has made significant improvements since his last pass at Wyoming and in short time periods.  If he comes in with a good deep ball, then game over, he’s gonna be a beast.

5 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

 

What are you basing this assesment on? Honest question. I am not implying otherwise, I am just a random Bills fan from Europe completely unable to recognize which offense is how complicated (I am actually contemplating starting a thread with my silly questions about things in football I still don't understand).

 

Is this some kind of universal view or your opinion? I remember discussion with another local fan of 49ers who insisted that Shanahan is running really complicated offense which Jimmy G. is able to master but Josh has no chance to execute and he also claimed that Bills run simple offense tailored to Allen.


All good, good question.  Many players have said that Daboll’s offense is the most complicated they have ever seen.  Even our coaches have acknowledged how complicated it is and they have been implementing more and more as Josh and the other guys get up to speed.  I don’t know if there is a way to say whose is the most complicated, but it’s definitely been confirmed to be one of the most complicated in the NFL.

  • Like (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So there is a lot of ways an offense can be "complicated" the idea of the E-P is actually to simplify the reads for the Quarterback but it requires a high degree of intelligence from the skill position players and their ability to adapt their routes to the defense that is being shown. It is fair to say that Josh hasn't benefitted from fantastic receivers in his time with the Bills so the complexity of the offense hasn't necessarily helped him. It does also prioritise quick reads from a Quarterback and Josh struggled with that a fair bit in 2018. In 2019 generally his best games came when he was reading quickly and getting the ball out of his hands. Not all of his holding the ball too long is on him, but a fair amount of it is. When it comes out quick the whole system works better and Josh definitely progressed (with a little blip mid-season after the first Pats game when he got a bit too "safe" for 3 or 4 weeks) in that regard in 2019.

 

Shanahan's offense is complicated for a different reason. It is a precision timing passing scheme. At its heart it is the west coast offense. Yes it works with a lot of bells and whistles and off the stretch zone run concepts that his dad added onto Walsh's creation when the OC in San Fran... but fundamentally the base passing game is the WCO. That really prioritises precise Quarterback footwork, timing and playing "on script." It was why I was one of the lone voices on this forum saying "this won't work" when we brought Rick Dennison here to run the same scheme with Tyrod Taylor. When what seemed at the time like everyone else was focusing on the packages they ran in Houston with Schaub under Kubiak where they moved the pocket and saying "Tyrod's mobility will be perfect" I was saying "he can't run the base plays." And it turned out, he couldn't. So much so that Rico wanted supposedly supported, maybe even initiated, the decision to go to Peterman. I don't think shoehorning Josh into a classic WCO would be a good idea either. That said Green Bay manager to make it work with a young Brett Favre under Mike Holmgren and there is some of that in Josh.... you just need a coach who is willing to overlook the going off script too often. Jimmy G is a perfect fit for a classic WCO. His footwork is excellent, he generally throws on time.... but he doesn't make many wow plays. He is also pretty smart. He does more at the line at this point than Josh. But that will hopefully come with experience.

 

The EP is just a verbage system

 

Like the West coast or coryell systems... It's all how the play is called in the huddle

 

Basically all teams run variations of the same plays, football's over a hundred years old pretty much everything has been done.. it's basically the verbiage and how you set it up that differs

 

both the EP and West coast system bases things in concepts but differently

 

But In a west coast system, a play might look like this.... "Brown Right F Short 2 Jet Flanker Drive" .. and that is a really short play...  brown right is the formation, f short the motion, and 2 jet the protection

 

In the west coast system the primary receivers concept is in the play call. It's telling the flanker what route to run.  West coast verbage is usually longer and you have to think a lot more

 

The EP is very condensed. And everything is through concepts not formations

 

The actual concept might be called Ghost/tosser. And that's telling all outside and inside receivers what to run, out of any formation

 

If ghost/ tosser is called, every wide receiver knows what route to run because the concept. It doesn't matter what formation you're in or anyting

 

 

The whole play call might be F right , 72 ghost /tosser.. which is much more simpler than the West coast verbiage

 

F Right is the formation. 72 is the protection and drop.. ghost tosser is the concept

 

You could do F left 72 ghost/tosser and they will still all know what to do

 

 

 

 

Edited by Buffalo716
  • Like (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

The EP is just a verbage system

 

Like the West coast or coryell systems... It's all how the play is called in the huddle

 

Basically all teams run variations of the same plays, football's over a hundred years old pretty much everything has been done.. it's basically the verbiage and how you set it up that differs

 

both the EP and West coast system bases things in concepts but differently

 

But In a west coast system, a play might look like this.... "Brown Right F Short 2 Jet Flanker Drive"  brown right is the formation, f short the motion, and 2 jet the protection

 

In the west coast system the primary receivers concept is in the play call. It's telling the flanker what route to run.  West coast verbage is usually longer and you have to think a lot more

 

The EP is very condensed. And everything is through concepts not formations

 

The actual concept might be called Ghost/tosser. And that's telling all outside and inside receivers what to run, out of any formation

 

If ghost/ tosser is called, every wide receiver knows what route to run because the concept. It doesn't matter what formation you're in or anyting

 

 

The whole play call might be F right , 72 ghost /tosser.. which is much more simpler than the West coast verbiage

 

F Right is the formation. 72 is the protection and drop.. ghost tosser is the concept

 

You could do F left 72 ghost/tosser and they will still all know what to do

 

 

 

 

 

I agree every team runs everything. But teams still have base systems. The Bills base offense and the 49ers base offense are predicated on different things. 

4 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Tre is so humble 

 

He is the perfect McDermott player. That is why McDermott in his 1 year as an NFL GM made Tre White his first round pick. 

  • Like (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree every team runs everything. But teams still have base systems. The Bills base offense and the 49ers base offense are predicated on different things. 

Of course they do.

 

I would call those differences schemes not systems. The system is just how they get the play call out. 

 

The scheme is how they draw it up and execute

 

Every team's base scheme, whether it be pure spread, power run offense, run and shoot etc definitely has an effect on their play calling and on the game

 

Bill Walshs  West coast offense may have been the outlier.. because it was a verbage system and a scheme

 

And that's why today West coast is heavily associated with quick passing game. It did have a scheme built-in by Bill Walsh

 

But some coaches today will use the West coast verbage, without actually running a West coast offense, so it's also a verbage system

 

You're absolutely right that a team like the niners run more of of a Bill Walsh West coast scheme.. as in the short pass is an extension of the run

 

But something like the EP system, is just a system to get the plays out. You can be pure spread or air raid or Power I with the EP

 

Edited by Buffalo716
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Billl said:

If he’d have hit Knox in the endzone on the last drive, that would have been the best drive of his career.  That game is a perfect microcosm of him being a better football player than a QB.


Or if he’d have had a chance to convert either of the 2 additional chances he had after that—you know, if he didn’t have 2 guys in his face in less than 1 second.

 

But yeah, had he floated a perfect ball to Knox in double coverage with a guy in his face it would’ve been an awesome way to announce his arrival as a big name.
 

I maintain that I’d have gone for 2 and the win there too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...