Bill from NYC Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Augie said: I still don’t agree that calling someone “well spoken” should be thought racist, but I’m trying to understand their point of view. When used to describe a black person, "well spoken" implies that this is the exception. It's the same for "well dressed." You will not make many friends in the black community using these terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Good experiment would be go to your nearest Native American area and start calling them redskins and see how it goes over. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 After 32 pages, I’m moving this over here for any further discussion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, MJS said: I just don't think it's possible to not look for "clues" into things. We are hard wired to be constantly taking in mountains of information and categorizing it in order to make decisions. The magnitude of information we are bombarded with constantly requires all of us to simplify and categorize, judge and assess. Pretty much constantly. We are looking for easy patterns to quickly process that information. When we are confronted with new, unseen information it takes us far longer to process it. So no, I don't think it's possible to NOT do that (especially today when the topic of race is so top of mind), nor do I think it is a bad thing at all. What you choose to do with that categorized information is a different story. If you deduce that someone is black or white or Asian or any other race, there is nothing wrong with that. If that leads you to racist thoughts or tendencies, that's when it's a problem. Call it decisions off of clues, but the real word is prejudices. They are formed off of seeing things on TV news, school or work interactions. But If that leads you to racist thoughts, is that really a problem, or just a byproduct of processing "clues"? Edited July 8, 2020 by Niagara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCOrange Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 16 hours ago, section122 said: To add to the further discrediting of @Rob's House anecdotal evidence... There is absolutely no way another Professor was brought in and simply told to grade the paper without that Prof asking why he needed to do so. The "new" Prof would have worked in the same department as the old one and would have been very aware of why he was doing it. This same thing basically happened to me as a student, though it wasn't racism, just a professor trying to protect their own. It was in my statistics class my senior year of college. I admittedly took advantage of my professor's non-existent attendance policy/our grade being entirely based off of exams and one project and just didn't go to class outside of exam days so that I could use that time to get work done on my other classes that were more difficult for me. My professor was incensed because she knew I was blatantly skipping her classes every day and then I'd walk in on exam day and get somewhere between a 95-100 on her exams. Then came the project. My partner and I followed all the instructions, did everything just as well as I had done on every exam and she came back to us with a 0, at first accusing us of turning the project in after the deadline. After I confirmed with a handful of other students that we had actually turned it in on time, she stuck us with a 0 anyways and accused us of cheating. The project's weight on our overall grade was high enough that we had failed her class and would have to go to trial for academic integrity to see if we'd be kicked out of school. My partner and I were able to pretty easily prove that we hadn't cheated (or at least prove that she couldn't prove it which is all we had to do since innocent until proven guilty) and the school agreed to have another professor grade our project. That professor happened to be a friend of our professor and despite insuring us that he wasn't being biased at all, he gave us like a 25% or something like that. Thankfully for me that was still enough to narrowly pass the class with a D and graduate (though it did cost me my Dean's List and ***** Laude status). My partner however hadn't aced the exams like I did so he had to re-take the course his last semester in order to graduate with us. Our beloved professor ended up being fired a year later. She remains one of maybe two people in this world that I feel comfortable saying I legitimately hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Saw a bumper sticker " Indians are people redskins are potatoes" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 3 hours ago, DCOrange said: This same thing basically happened to me as a student, though it wasn't racism, just a professor trying to protect their own. It was in my statistics class my senior year of college. I admittedly took advantage of my professor's non-existent attendance policy/our grade being entirely based off of exams and one project and just didn't go to class outside of exam days so that I could use that time to get work done on my other classes that were more difficult for me. My professor was incensed because she knew I was blatantly skipping her classes every day and then I'd walk in on exam day and get somewhere between a 95-100 on her exams. Then came the project. My partner and I followed all the instructions, did everything just as well as I had done on every exam and she came back to us with a 0, at first accusing us of turning the project in after the deadline. After I confirmed with a handful of other students that we had actually turned it in on time, she stuck us with a 0 anyways and accused us of cheating. The project's weight on our overall grade was high enough that we had failed her class and would have to go to trial for academic integrity to see if we'd be kicked out of school. My partner and I were able to pretty easily prove that we hadn't cheated (or at least prove that she couldn't prove it which is all we had to do since innocent until proven guilty) and the school agreed to have another professor grade our project. That professor happened to be a friend of our professor and despite insuring us that he wasn't being biased at all, he gave us like a 25% or something like that. Thankfully for me that was still enough to narrowly pass the class with a D and graduate (though it did cost me my Dean's List and ***** Laude status). My partner however hadn't aced the exams like I did so he had to re-take the course his last semester in order to graduate with us. Our beloved professor ended up being fired a year later. She remains one of maybe two people in this world that I feel comfortable saying I legitimately hate. I don't get why teachers care if students come to class or not. They don't get paid for attendence. If students know the material they shouldn't care. Now if a student is skipping class AND doing poorly on assignments and exams, that's a different story and the teacher might want to intervene (I'd still not care if it was me). People pay thousands of dollars to go to college. If they don't want to go to class that's their business. But many classes I had for my undergrad had some kind of attendence requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: If we're going to be un-naive and not accept things at face value, it's possible that the credit card algorithm mistakenly flagged transactions of black customers as fraudulent because their spending patterns matched the spending patterns of stolen cards; it's possible the "other professor grading the paper" was not as blinded to the identity of the author as you believe, or that both professors were reacting subconsciously to subtle clues in the writing that marked it as the work of a person of color but that did not impact the actual content or argument; it's possible that the pizza place was not flagging equally crime-ridden white neighborhoods, or was denying service to black neighborhoods that were no more crime ridden along with those with legit high crime rates. None of those things are true. WRT to the credit card issue, I worked that job for several years and was very familiar with the process. There are particular patterns that have a high correlation with fraudulent use. The purpose is to stop credit card fraud that costs the company money. A black person's card is no more likely than a white person's card to be used, nor is there a higher incident of a black person's card being flagged. The pizza place did not deliver to white areas with comparable crime rates. Management didn't give a ***** about safety or race of anyone, all they cared about was making money. The only reason for restricting the delivery area was difficulty staffing and legal liability/insurance concerns. They even explored the idea of delivering to those neighborhoods because all they care about is money. I recall a black guy telling a manager, "tell your white ass bosses to go down there, because I'm not." And I knew the guy who wrote the paper in question, and he was a moron. I didn't read the paper but from his classroom comments I can only imagine a B was an act of generosity. And the first teacher was Indian (dots not feathers) and the one who did the blind grade was a gay liberal. When writing for the school paper I also did a story on the school's cancellation of a step show that was said to have been cancelled because it was "too racial." The guy in charge was very forthcoming and showed me the files. It turned out that the proposed step show was going to take up the entire activity budget and no one showed up for the meeting to discuss it. Following up on my initial leads I could find no one with first hand knowledge to the contrary, and it was a small school. The editor of the paper revised my article to run with the initial report instead of the findings of my investigation. Every black student on that campus thought the step show was cancelled because of racism. As I made very clear, these are just a few examples that illustrate the point that perception is not always reality. Quote It's also possible that all these things you experienced did not have a racist cause, and yet those anecdotal experiences would not disprove that black and brown people may indeed start life in this country without an equal chance of equal success for similar personal qualities, or that black and brown people as a whole don't experience racism that may not stop them from achieving success, but that does impact them and affect their daily lives. Maybe so, maybe not. But the point is that just because one perceives something as racist doesn't necessarily make it so. Are we just to assume pervasive anti-black racism because we're told to, or is it too much to ask for some evidence to support that assertion? Quote I think you mistake "others are afraid and threatened by this discussion" for "others choose not to engage with you because they perceive your posts and arguments as dogmatic and framed to reinforce your belief set, rather than having genuine intellectual interest in open exploration and exchange of information and ideas" Prove me wrong: explain what you would accept as convincing evidence that racism still exists, and that systemic racism hindered the success of black families through the late '60s and beyond. 1. I think it's a bit of projection to label my arguments as dogmatic when I'm simply asking for evidence to support a narrative that is being presented as incontrovertible fact, and a fact that must be swiftly and strongly acted upon, without any evidence to support it, and places an obligation on all of us to contribute under threat of physical "discomfort". 2. I've never claimed racism doesn't exist. There are and always will be racist people of all colors. That doesn't mean that it is one-sided or that it is an overwhelming force of oppression for people in 21st century America. 3. As I've stated before, if this anti-black racism is as prevalent as you claim, I would expect to see significant evidence. Instead I see correlation conflated with causation, examples where racism is inferred solely on the basis of the respective races of those involved, and anecdotes that often prove false. Quote Can you prove that we're the freest and most prosperous country in the history of the world? What are your criteria for this? Does it specifically include criteria for the prosperity and freedom of black and brown people, or is this just another way of saying "I got mine, Hell with You bub"? This one's a little harder to quantify with precision, but if you look at the standard of living in all predominantly black countries compared to the living standard of blacks in America it isn't even close. Median household income for black Americans is over $40,000. The global average is around $10,000.00. Predominantly black countries are among the poorest. Of the 12 countries with the highest black populations outside of Africa the only ones that are even in the conversation are Canada, France, and the UK. https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php https://www.statista.com/statistics/233324/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-by-race-or-ethnic-group/ http://statisticstimes.com/economy/african-countries-by-gdp-per-capita.php http://www.culturaldiplomacy.org/index.php?en_programs_diaspora Quote Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob. Don't you think it's naive of you to accept wherever you read or heard that, at face value? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_empires https://www.history.com/news/7-influential-african-empires https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood_District,_Tulsa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre https://www.history.com/news/georgia-racial-expulsion-stacey-abrams https://www.npr.org/2016/09/15/494063372/the-racial-cleansing-that-drove-1-100-black-residents-out-of-forsyth-county-gahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expulsions_of_African_Americans Some of these empires were pretty free and prosperous. Some of the residents of these towns and business districts, ditto What are your criteria and how can you prove that on average, black Americans today are freer and more prosperous than blacks living in historical black empires, the Ghana Empire, Mali, Aksum and Adal on the Horn, etc etc? Or blacks pre-1919 who had spent 50 years post-slavery working to achieve prosperity for their families only to have that wealth wrested from them during the bloody summer of 1919 and to be denied Government jobs when Wilson segregated the federal government? The fact that you have to go back 100+ years to make your point really makes my point. By your criteria there would always be overt racism even if were completely eradicated from the world because you could always drudge up facts from the distant past. And no people were as prosperous 100 years ago as we are today. Most people didn't even have indoor plumbing back then. Most African countries still don't. Quote Don't confuse agreement with Travis Heath that debate with pseudo-intellectual white dudes about the existence and effects of racism in the US based upon assertion, personal experience as a white male, and personal belief bolstered by selected information interpreted selectively for being "threatened" or "upset" by you. And here is the core of your argument. A weak ad hominem. "Your opinion is invalid because of the color of your skin, ergo, I am right." Edited July 8, 2020 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Rob's House said: And the first teacher was Indian (dots not feathers) and the one who did the blind grade was a gay liberal. Are you ***** kidding me? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Just now, Gugny said: Are you ***** kidding me? No, he really was from India. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Rob's House said: No, he really was from India. What class was this? Women's studies? Edited July 8, 2020 by Jauronimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCOrange Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 2 hours ago, MJS said: I don't get why teachers care if students come to class or not. They don't get paid for attendence. If students know the material they shouldn't care. Now if a student is skipping class AND doing poorly on assignments and exams, that's a different story and the teacher might want to intervene (I'd still not care if it was me). People pay thousands of dollars to go to college. If they don't want to go to class that's their business. But many classes I had for my undergrad had some kind of attendence requirement. Agreed. And if she had an attendance policy, then yeah, feel free to punish me for not attending (though I would have attended if it was necessary and just figured out another way to get the rest of my ***** done). But you can't openly tell us that attendance is optional and then try to fail kids for not attending. It was pretty much the only time I've ever gotten in trouble in school at all (the only other time was a lunch detention back in 7th grade for shooting a basketball when we weren't supposed to lol). It was one of the most stressful times of my life since I was trying to apply for jobs after graduation while dealing with that and I had to try to explain to potential employers why I had nearly failed a math class while applying for math-ish jobs without trying to come across like I was making excuses for myself (even though I was completely in the right). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 5 hours ago, ALF said: Saw a bumper sticker " Indians are people redskins are potatoes" Redskins are a kind of peanut, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceman_16 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Gugny said: Are you ***** kidding me? ^^^ IS the issue ^^^ either he was kidding to throw salt on the wound or TRULY has no idea how he comes across. However, either answer serves as the impetus of his opinion/takes/posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 12 hours ago, Bill from NYC said: When used to describe a black person, "well spoken" implies that this is the exception. It's the same for "well dressed." You will not make many friends in the black community using these terms. Well, I know this......NOW. Fortunately, my black tennis buddy felt comfortable enough to explain it to me. Is it right that someone else can take my words and assign a totally different context or meaning to it? No. BUT....Is it right that the black community should feel a need to take offense to such a comment? No again. Sadly, I’m sure that feeling exists for a reason, because of real life experience. I’m thankful to my buddy for explaining it. Communication leads to better understanding. I’m sure the young white golfer my wife said the exact same words about would have no reason to assign some other meaning. It wasn’t code for anything in either case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 13 hours ago, Augie said: Well, I know this......NOW. Fortunately, my black tennis buddy felt comfortable enough to explain it to me. Is it right that someone else can take my words and assign a totally different context or meaning to it? No. BUT....Is it right that the black community should feel a need to take offense to such a comment? No again. Sadly, I’m sure that feeling exists for a reason, because of real life experience. I’m thankful to my buddy for explaining it. Communication leads to better understanding. I’m sure the young white golfer my wife said the exact same words about would have no reason to assign some other meaning. It wasn’t code for anything in either case. I understand what you are saying. Here is my view: Doug Whaley wore some of the nicest suits I for one have ever seen. That statement is not at all cliché. There are zero insinuations or implications, whereas well spoken and well dressed have been around for many, many years. Again, it implies that they are the exception. I have seen "well spoken" used many times on this board, and I am NOT calling anyone who said this a racist. I guess that the only reason I know this is because a black friend told me about these terms several decades ago. As I said, resentment for these terms is nothing new. Btw I remember an interview with Chris Speilman when he was on the Bills. "I think that it was in SHOUT." Chris was built like an ox and practiced as hard as any player. He was offended by being called a "smart player." I agreed with him. He was a very good player as much or more for his physical ability as his brains. I would make the same case for London Fletcher, except that I don't remember him being called a "smart player," but he truly was. I like to believe/hope that we are now past this kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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