section122 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 6/22/2020 at 3:50 PM, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...points taken and definitely respected.....but I do not think it is fair to minimize their struggles, many of which still exist.... I am snipping for brevity. Saying black lives matter in no way marginalizes or minimizes the struggle anyone else faces. The statement does not have any more to it. It isn't black lives matter and Italian lives don't, white lives don't etc. It is a simple statement. Anyone that can't say that one statement without qualifying it should really ask themselves why? What about that simple statement bothers them? Do they have the same reaction when someone says blue lives matter? We can all say black lives matter and leave it at that. The most recent movement has certainly caused reflection in my actions and thoughts along the lines of waht @Hapless Bills Fan posted. I grew up in a small town and can tell you from first hand experience racism is still an issue in America. Growing up it wasn't uncommon to hear derogatory terms used to describe black people, immigrants, etc. I have realized through reflection that not speaking up and telling people that it wasn't okay to do in front of me I was actually telling them that it was okay to do in front of me. I have made a promise to myself that I will no longer let that be the case. I'm not racist but my inaction was allowing racism to exist around me and that isn't okay. The current protests really got me to stop and think. Hopefully it did for many more Americans as well. To circle back to the topic at hand: At work - no absolutely not. I work in HR and ask people not to discuss things such as these at work At home/personal life - absolutely. My belief is my belief and I have no problem sharing it with people. If people dislike or disagree and are respectful I enjoy conversing with them as I am always open to learning new things and having my views grow/evolve. If they are disrespectful I have no problem ending a conversation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 6/21/2020 at 4:51 PM, The Dean said: No doubt. The very fact that you CAN simply drop the vowel from your name and escape the bigotry suggests the bigotry ins't nearly as deep. Also, Italians, Irish, etc came here of their own volition (many legally, many illegally). As a rule, they still had contacts and support from their friends/family/business associates back in the old country. There was no slavery in their recent past and they were never disallowed from going to restaurants/using drinking fountains/restrooms/etc. The mafia, as bad as they were, actually helped many Italians lift themselves out of poverty and into the middle (lower-middle?) class. With that said, remembering the bigotry those in your family experienced is important. It SHOULD make one more empathetic to other groups who experience the social discrimination. I'm continually disappointed with those who know about the bigotry in their past fail to take up the cause for other groups who are currently still experiencing it. And BTW that applies to African Americans who don't support the rights of the LGBT community. You bring up excellent points that impact my thinking and that I briefly wanted to expand. Even beyond the old country, immigrants in this country banded together in their own communities and those most motivated helped each other where they could. Yes, there were a ton of struggles and discrimination but Italians, Irish, Slavs, etc pulled together when and where they could. You still see this today with the Chinese community at the very least (I work with many Chinese). Contrast that with the black community. Slavery "ended" in 1865, after families had been totally ripped apart, suppressed and people were forbidden to educate or even read/write. The black ethnic group went through complete disempowerment unique to any other ethnic group in this country. Beyond societal discrimination, they had almost a total lack of resources and ability to help each other within their community. And things didn't begin to meaningfully change (Jim Crow laws, segregation) until MLK about 100 years later. That's two generations removed for a child born today. It's a unique and tragic history and it's going to take a unique solution with wisdom, help and understanding from the rest of us. One miniscule personal example, I was against Kaepernick et al. kneeling because I found it disrespectful to the flag, but truly the least I can do and have done is to listen to their reasons and accept their stated intent is not to disrespect and be supportive despite my personal feelings. Let's be real, black athletes helping their community is certainly one high-profile excellent way to help empower. Oh and WRT race relations, I'm happy to respectfully discuss wherever with anyone who approaches the same. In these polarized days, honest, respectful discussion is sorely needed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: You bring up excellent points that impact my thinking and that I briefly wanted to expand. Even beyond the old country, immigrants in this country banded together in their own communities and those most motivated helped each other where they could. Yes, there were a ton of struggles and discrimination but Italians, Irish, Slavs, etc pulled together when and where they could. You still see this today with the Chinese community at the very least (I work with many Chinese). Contrast that with the black community. Slavery "ended" in 1865, after families had been totally ripped apart, suppressed and people were forbidden to educate or even read/write. The black ethnic group went through complete disempowerment unique to any other ethnic group in this country. Beyond societal discrimination, they had almost a total lack of resources and ability to help each other within their community. And things didn't begin to meaningfully change (Jim Crow laws, segregation) until MLK about 100 years later. That's two generations removed for a child born today. It's a unique and tragic history and it's going to take a unique solution with wisdom, help and understanding from the rest of us. One miniscule personal example, I was against Kaepernick et al. kneeling because I found it disrespectful to the flag, but truly the least I can do and have done is to listen to their reasons and accept their stated intent is not to disrespect and be supportive despite my personal feelings. Let's be real, black athletes helping their community is certainly one high-profile excellent way to help empower. Oh and WRT race relations, I'm happy to respectfully discuss wherever with anyone who approaches the same. In these polarized days, honest, respectful discussion is sorely needed. Amen brother. Great post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boater Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) Never. When I worked in govt the Admin Assistants had a gig going... they would talk race with you over a period of time, lull you into a sense of trust. Then WHAM one day you talk race like you had safely before, and all the sudden they're deeply offended. They file an EEO complaint and disclose that they can be "made whole" by a payment in the 6 figure range. Edited June 25, 2020 by boater 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCOrange Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 5 hours ago, Keukasmallies said: I do feel I can express my heartfelt thoughts on race relations, but I don't because I recently added race relations to politics and religion on my never-initiate-a-discussion list. I support preserving our history, warts and all, and celebrating the fact that we've evolved as a nation as we've grown to appreciate and value all people. So, equal right for ALL, but leave the statues alone, please. I mean, com'on, do we really tear down the George Washington bridge because he supported practices that were accepted when he was alive? My opinion on this is: I'm more or less indifferent about statues. They don't really provide any value at all to me, so I personally won't fight very hard for them to stay or go, BUT For me, there's a difference between symbols that are held up pretty much purely for racist reasons (i.e. Confederate flag, Robert E. Lee, or anything related to Jim Crow) vs. something that isn't really synonymous with slavery even if they did support it in some way (i.e. "Slaveowner" is not the first thing that comes to mind when you think of George Washington). I think a statue like the Teddy Roosevelt one that is coming down (or might already have been taken down) in NYC is kind of an exception because while the same point for Washington applies for Roosevelt, the statue itself is portraying minorities as inferior. Ultimately, it doesn't matter much to me, so if other people view it as extremely offensive, I would tend to be fine with removing it. I tend to be someone that very selectively picks my battles and statues is not one that I care to fight over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 6/21/2020 at 4:51 PM, The Dean said: No doubt. The very fact that you CAN simply drop the vowel from your name and escape the bigotry suggests the bigotry ins't nearly as deep. Also, Italians, Irish, etc came here of their own volition (many legally, many illegally). As a rule, they still had contacts and support from their friends/family/business associates back in the old country. There was no slavery in their recent past and they were never disallowed from going to restaurants/using drinking fountains/restrooms/etc. The mafia, as bad as they were, actually helped many Italians lift themselves out of poverty and into the middle (lower-middle?) class. With that said, remembering the bigotry those in your family experienced is important. It SHOULD make one more empathetic to other groups who experience the social discrimination. I'm continually disappointed with those who know about the bigotry in their past fail to take up the cause for other groups who are currently still experiencing it. And BTW that applies to African Americans who don't support the rights of the LGBT community. This is so blatantly wrong I can't even believe I'm reading it. Yes I'm sure having to pay a portion of your profits to a random guy who showed up with two thugs threatening to burn your place down if you didn't is a great way to get to the middle class. Italians also had the amazing luxury of not knowing the language, and in my parents case, two languages in a part of the world where you are discriminated based on the language you speak. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, GaryPinC said: You bring up excellent points that impact my thinking and that I briefly wanted to expand. Even beyond the old country, immigrants in this country banded together in their own communities and those most motivated helped each other where they could. Yes, there were a ton of struggles and discrimination but Italians, Irish, Slavs, etc pulled together when and where they could. You still see this today with the Chinese community at the very least (I work with many Chinese). Contrast that with the black community. Slavery "ended" in 1865, after families had been totally ripped apart, suppressed and people were forbidden to educate or even read/write. The black ethnic group went through complete disempowerment unique to any other ethnic group in this country. Beyond societal discrimination, they had almost a total lack of resources and ability to help each other within their community. And things didn't begin to meaningfully change (Jim Crow laws, segregation) until MLK about 100 years later. That's two generations removed for a child born today. It's a unique and tragic history and it's going to take a unique solution with wisdom, help and understanding from the rest of us. One miniscule personal example, I was against Kaepernick et al. kneeling because I found it disrespectful to the flag, but truly the least I can do and have done is to listen to their reasons and accept their stated intent is not to disrespect and be supportive despite my personal feelings. Let's be real, black athletes helping their community is certainly one high-profile excellent way to help empower. Oh and WRT race relations, I'm happy to respectfully discuss wherever with anyone who approaches the same. In these polarized days, honest, respectful discussion is sorely needed. Yup. But unfortunately, that is all but impossible in our modern age where there is zero room for dissent from the politically correct opinion and the mass media/social media 'gotcha' game is ready to grab anyone who fumbles their words in the slightest. Edited June 26, 2020 by KD in CA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 39 minutes ago, KD in CA said: Yup. But unfortunately, that is all but impossible in our modern age where there is zero room for dissent from the politically correct opinion and the mass media/social media 'gotcha' game is ready to grab anyone who fumbles their words in the slightest. Yep. But F social media. Empowered cowards. Face to face and do more listening then talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 Years from now, everyone living today will be branded as despicable "Car Owners" by our carbon free descendants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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