CEN-CAL17 Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 22 minutes ago, Putin said: Tradition ? Respect? Being grateful of our freedoms, you know the first amendment.... do we have things to work on? Absolutely but how quick we lose touch is bothersome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 20 minutes ago, TheProcess said: Great question, but be careful what you ask for with that question on here. You’ll feel the full wrath of the resident Drew Brees’es. The “well my grandaddy served and I’m steaming mad about this” crowd. It’s sad after all this people would rather spend all this time and energy fighting and deflecting vs. stopping to actually listen and ask themselves whether we have a legitimate race problem in this country. If you you’re self would stop yapping for 2 minutes and actually listen , then you would know that NOBODY is disputing that there is legitimate race problem in this country, BUT please continue on yapping and deflecting from a legitimate discussion that people are having Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 23 minutes ago, TheProcess said: Great question, but be careful what you ask for with that question on here. You’ll feel the full wrath of the resident Drew Brees’es. The “well my grandaddy served and I’m steaming mad about this” crowd. It’s sad after all this people would rather spend all this time and energy fighting and deflecting vs. stopping to actually listen and ask themselves whether we have a legitimate race problem in this country. Do you practice the same? Do you listen to those who might actually agree with race issues but also have a strong affirmation for for the military and their beliefs? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEN-CAL17 Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Putin said: I would remove the Anthem from All domestic games , if the players from both teams want to get together and kneel before the kickoff who would have an issue with that ? IMO it would be great for both teams and the coaches take two minutes and kneel/protest to show that they all support the cause that we ALL agree with !!! WHAT YOU GUYS THINK ??? Been saying the same things for year. There can’t be a moment after the anthem after where all players, fans and everyone in the stadium can have a moment of solidarity? That’s much more powerful!!!! Something we can ALL get behind!!!! but that goes to my point prior... there is no single message and people can’t agree what they really want let alone talk about it and come up with! Edited June 15, 2020 by CEN-CAL17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 Do you practice the same? Do you listen to those who might actually agree with race issues but also have a strong affirmation for for the military and their beliefs? Do you know that the military stands at attention and salutes the flag as it is risen in the morning and lowered in the evening. That service members stop what they are doing (even driving) and render respect? While that means nothing to you, to others that means a lot. It’s not just my grandaddy served BS. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said: Been saying the same things for year. There can’t be a moment after the anthem after where all players, fans and everyone in the stadium can have a moment of solidarity? That’s much more powerful!!!! Something we can ALL get behind!!!! I would be the first one on board !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, BillsFan17 said: Have people truly changed their minds? Or are they following the herd in order to not be canceled or publicly shamed (e.g. Drew Brees) That's a simple yet fundamental question about what drives human behavior and thinking. I'm going to play the cynic here and rather than say yes or no I suggest people act and behave in a manner that's consistent with whatever they determine is in their best interests. In this case white NFL players that claim they now see the light, were wrong to not see this earlier, and support kneeling for the anthem to protest racism are lying or misrepresenting their motivations. What really happened is circumstances have changed that require them to change their view in order to support their best interests. In this case not being viewed as opposing actions and beliefs held by the majority of their teammates. How would you feel if you had to walk into a work environment every day where you pissed off 70% of your co-workers? Do you really believe all the blood sucking politicians that knelled in the capital were expressing real and genuine support and compassion over the killing of George Floyd and the issues facing African-American communities? The truth is its in their best interests to deceive people into believing that and they could care less about the man and see it as an opportunity to get more votes and support. It really was a nauseating display of patronizing. Or that white liberal academics that are the brains behind Antifa and other leftist causes have any real concern for inner city communities? It's all a ruse to try to wrestle political power from others. They are just using the BLM movement for cover to execute their street level operations (and deflect any blame or negative consequences on them too). If you hated white bikers would you go into a biker bar and shout out "white bikers suck" because you believed it even though you'd get a real ass kicking? I have my doubts. Do you think all the citizens of North Korea really support Kim Un? If they don't they get shot or imprisoned. So they go along with it. So if people are really changing the views, opinions, and beliefs its not out of compassion or desire to help others its because they've evaluated the circumstances and see it in their best interests to alter the views they express (even if they really don't believe it). Humans learn to lie at a young age and we are all very good at it which gives everyone reading my post justifiable cause to believe I'm a liar too! Edited June 15, 2020 by All_Pro_Bills 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 1 minute ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: Do you practice the same? Do you listen to those who might actually agree with race issues but also have a strong affirmation for for the military and their beliefs? Do you know that the military stands at attention and salutes the flag as it is risen in the morning and lowered in the evening. That service members stop what they are doing (even driving) and render respect? While that means nothing to you, to others that means a lot. It’s not just my grandaddy served BS. I understand that. Because as I understand it the flag represents the country and its ideals. And one of those ideals is the right to protest what one sees as injustice. I have stated before I stand and will continue to do so, but acknowledge the right for others to kneel to protest. They have said again and again they are not protesting the military. I get some military members are offended and respect that, but I also have talked to military members who believe they served to protect the Constitution and the rights therein. And I respect their opinion as well. In a general sense, our country has become way too polarized on many issues and we need to all realize and accept there are differing opinions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: I understand that. Because as I understand it the flag represents the country and its ideals. And one of those ideals is the right to protest what one sees as injustice. I have stated before I stand and will continue to do so, but acknowledge the right for others to kneel to protest. They have said again and again they are not protesting the military. I get some military members are offended and respect that, but I also have talked to military members who believe they served to protect the Constitution and the rights therein. And I respect their opinion as well. In a general sense, our country has become way too polarized on many issues and we need to all realize and accept there are differing opinions. Certainly not disputing you on that as that is who I am. I think a point some posters are trying to make is that there are those who believe in both, that you can agree and support efforts against racial discrimination, police brutality, and racism in general, but also support the ideal of National Pride. It's not cookie cutter one way or the other. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: Certainly not disputing you on that as that is who I am. I think a point some posters are trying to make is that there are those who believe in both, that you can agree and support efforts against racial discrimination, police brutality, and racism in general, but also support the ideal of National Pride. It's not cookie cutter one way or the other. Because ( unfortunately) there is NO two ways here it’s either your with us or you are a racist !! And screw you’re grandparents who served and everything else that you believe... Edited June 15, 2020 by Putin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 8 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: Certainly not disputing you on that as that is who I am. I think a point some posters are trying to make is that there are those who believe in both, that you can agree and support efforts against racial discrimination, police brutality, and racism in general, but also support the ideal of National Pride. It's not cookie cutter one way or the other. I agree. I think the anthem thing is overblown personally. I stand, others may not to protest. They have that right. In some other situation I might protest and the players may not agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 15 hours ago, Muppy said: Apologies to @H2o I just was rankled by his opinion that it be shuffled off to a different forum. Its relevant wether we want it to be or not. No apology necessary, though I appreciate it. Have a good day my friend. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: I agree. I think the anthem thing is overblown personally. I stand, others may not to protest. They have that right. In some other situation I might protest and the players may not agree. I agree as well. Some people are rock solid in how they perceive the anthem. Some show solidarity, some show there are issues that need attention, some take a piss and get beer. All valid points. My thought is...if the NFL were to remove the anthem, flag unfurling, etc as some posters have suggested, does this now become the NFL is trying to silence voices by removing the anthem? If so, then the debate rages on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProcessYaDigg Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 Simply, to answer the question, yes. I would support our coach. However, I want to put things in perspective. As an active duty member, I fully support the protests going on. The police system is broken and needs to be fixed. BUT, I would never kneel while in uniform. I say this because this is important. While wearing the uniform, I don't only represent myself, I represent everyone else wearing the uniform. So if I were to kneel, nobody would see me for me. Stories would get blown way out of proportion and headlines would read "Active Duty Sailor kneels during National Anthem." So in retrospect, it's the Armed Forces who support these protests, not me. I would be speaking for the entire Armed Forces, in which my career would be completely scrutinized for this. I can't speak for everyone in the Military. Same thing applies during political rallies. We are not allowed to attend rallies in uniform or wear anything that displays the organization that we're in, otherwise, that'll be seen as "the Navy supports (insert President)." Again, the point is that we can't show any type of support while representing the military or any other organization we're apart of. So I think this same situation should apply in sports. NFL players wear a uniform. They don't just represent themselves. They represent the entire organization. Let's be real, not everyone is on the same page yet with what these protests mean. In this very delicate situation we're living in right now, it should be an all or nothing type of protest during the National Anthem at games. Either all players and staff kneel, or all stand together. Or if certain players and staff want to kneel during the National Anthem, then take the uniform off, wear street clothes, and go kneel in the stands with the fans. Blend in. Represent your views. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 https://www.legion.org/documents/legion/pdf/flagcode_07.pdf There is a code pertaining to treatment of the flag, originally written in 1923. It is a code of conduct, not a law. These three parts are interesting. “(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free. (d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general. (i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.” Ever seen a bunch of people waving a flag horizontally at a football game? Ever seen an American flag shirt or swimsuit? Ever seen an American flag on a Budweiser can? Why no outrage over these violations of this code? I think we all know the answer and it that answer lies the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulldog Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 First of all - I fully believe in any citizen's right to protest in any manner in which they choose - both I & a number of people in my family have in the past and currently do serve this country in the military. Being a patriot has been ingrained in me since my youth (that was along time ago - just for the record). I have seen the opinion that these anthem protests are not about "disrespecting the flag or the military". I must ask this question - isn't the whole purpose of playing the anthem & facing the flag while having your hand over your heart (or saluting) to honor the flag & country? If there is some other purpose to this tradition - please let me know what it is, because otherwise I have been misinformed about the symbolism & purpose of the anthem/flag display tradition. Again - I fully believe in a person's right to protest, even if that protest involves disrespecting the flag & country. Just be honest about what you are doing - if you wish to show a lack of respect for the flag & nation due to what you perceive as persecution, feel free - but please be honest about what you are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 17 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: I agree as well. Some people are rock solid in how they perceive the anthem. Some show solidarity, some show there are issues that need attention, some take a piss and get beer. All valid points. My thought is...if the NFL were to remove the anthem, flag unfurling, etc as some posters have suggested, does this now become the NFL is trying to silence voices by removing the anthem? If so, then the debate rages on. I think if all sporting events did so and replaced with a 1 minute time for personal reflection that might be best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: I think if all sporting events did so and replaced with a 1 minute time for personal reflection that might be best. I don't think that will solve things either. You could perhaps do both, but if you remove the anthem just to have a personal time of reflection, that won't go over well either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank Stare Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Putin said: If you you’re self would stop yapping for 2 minutes and actually listen , then you would know that NOBODY is disputing that there is legitimate race problem in this country, BUT please continue on yapping and deflecting from a legitimate discussion that people are having My last posts were damn near 24 hours apart. That long enough for you? I’ve read many of these posts in this thread, and the only yapping I see is coming from you and people like you. Right on brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 15 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: I don't think that will solve things either. You could perhaps do both, but if you remove the anthem just to have a personal time of reflection, that won't go over well either. There is not going to be a perfect solution so long as attitudes are so polarized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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