Franchise QB's

[SirAndrew]

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Completely agree.  Bum only had 500 total yards.  Why didn’t that bum win the MVP as a rookie?  Why couldn’t that bum win the Heisman as a freshman?  Polian was right.  He should switch positions.

Why does Allen have a higher ceiling? Honestly.  I’m not even knocking Allen here but I feel like this board is so quick to put Jackson down.  He won a MVP at 23.  He won a Heisman trophy.  He had been a better passer on every level than Allen and against harder competition.  His best receiverS were a rookie who missed a bunch of games and Willie Snead. 
 

it’s just funny that folks act like it’s a such given that Allen can improve but not the MVP, who has been better than Allen every single year they have played football. 
 

And isn’t Allen a running qb?

The Lamar Jackson aversion on this board is just hilarious. I’m not sizing his jacket for the HOF yet, but give the guy credit as one of the top AFC QB’s. That could change at any time, but that applies to

any player. I like Josh Allen, but this idea we are in better shape than the Ravens right now, is simply bizarre. I like this Bills team, but we have a lot to prove. 

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Bledsoe has a much stronger arm than LJ. 
One of the reasons I’m high on Josh. 

When LJ gets to a Super Bowl we can talk.
Love me some cannon armed, prototypical pocket passing QBs.

Bledsoe had 3 decent years in New England and 1/2 of a good year in Buffalo. Other than that he was an AWFUL QB. Lamar has one good year and one MVP season. Lamar’s peak has already been better than Bledsoe’s and he only needs about another good year or 2 to surpass Bledsoe’s entire prime (‘94, ‘96, ‘97). He was a BAD QB before Brady ever took over. I was living there at that point and followed them a little. He is and was one of the most overrated players ever and certainly the most overrated the Bills have ever had. If you exclude his first 8 games in a Bills uniform his numbers are as bad as Losman, Edwards, EJ, etc...

37 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Bledsoe did it for a lot of years at a near HOF level.   Lamar has done it for one. 

 

Lamar is going to be tested increasingly in the coming couple of seasons, as teams game plan for him and get used to him.   Also, defenses will adjust because there's Lamar and Kyler and to a lesser extent Mayfield and probably a few more.  End of the day, you have to be a superior leader (which Lamar may be), a superior thrower, and a superior student of the game.   Lamar hasn't shown he's there yet.  

He certainly has a ways to go but his peak has been better than Bledsoe’s already. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[Billl]

18 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

flash in the pan

 

phrase of flash

 

1. a thing or person whose sudden but brief success is not repeated or repeatable.
    

       Maybe he goes on to have an amazing career. But it will take ten years minimum before we know.

   Bledsoe didn’t miss a ton of games.... running around like a chicken with its head cut off is not a recipe for a long NFL career.
    

Good thing he led the NFL in TD passes, then.

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

He certainly has a ways to go but his peak has been better than Bledsoe’s already. 

Absolutely.   He was spectacular last season.  As great a run-pass threat as Vick in his prime.  If he keeps it up, he's an all-time great, and then it would be an insult to compare him to Bledsoe.  

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Shaw66

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

     Still not buying LJ. Watching him suck throwing outside the hash marks in the Titan’s game , I feel like last year was his flash in the pan year. Not just because of him, either. It seemed like a Magic year for the Ravens which I’m not sure they repeat. 

 

Maybe, but change the subject of "throwing" to a different flaw and couldn't one say the same about Allen? 

 

LJ will either improve, or he won't.  If he doesn't improve, a lot of teams will try to pursue what the Bills and Titans did with some success.  Many won't be able to, so he'll still shred some Ds and win games.  If he does improve, Franchise Time.

Same could be said of Allen.

[Buffalo Boy]

25 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Bledsoe had 3 decent years in New England and 1/2 of a good year in Buffalo. Other than that he was an AWFUL QB. Lamar has one good year and one MVP season. Lamar’s peak has already been better than Bledsoe’s and he only needs about another good year or 2 to surpass Bledsoe’s entire prime (‘94, ‘96, ‘97). He was a BAD QB before Brady ever took over. I was living there at that point and followed them a little. He is and was one of the most overrated players ever and certainly the most overrated the Bills have ever had. If you exclude his first 8 games in a Bills uniform his numbers are as bad as Losman, Edwards, EJ, etc...

He certainly has a ways to go but his peak has been better than Bledsoe’s already. 

How about we send LJ back in time to the era when QBs actually got hit .... hard..... a lot.

Then, and only then can you make a fair comparison. 

19 minutes ago, Billl said:

Good thing he led the NFL in TD passes, then.

Good thing he’s playing in an era when if you sneeze on a QB, it’s fifteen yards. You sneeze a second time and you’re out of the game. Same thing for hitting receivers.

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Buffalo Boy

[MiltonWaddams]

Seahawks. Hasselbeck to Russell

[Billl]

11 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I disagree Allen is absolutely in that top tier athlete category. He’s actually a superior athlete to Watson, Mahomes and Wilson. If you look at the next gen stats he was second to only Lamar in top end speed (at least I think). He was at like 21 MPH. Allen was also a 3 sport star in high school. He may not be the QB that those others are yet but he absolutely is in the elite athlete tier. This chart is a touch dated but he’s as big and fast as Cam: 

 

They measure all of this at the combine, and he ran a 4.76.  You can’t compare playing 3 sports in high school to being offered millions to play in MLB.  It’s laughable to compare him athletically to guys who could play multiple sports professionally, especially when those guys are light years better at the sport Josh does play.  Watson had a better 40 time, a better vertical, a better shuttle, etc.  Josh had better velocity on his throws.

 

Two of the biggest plays in the postseason were runs by Watson (throwing on the run after breaking out of a sack) and Mahomes (torching the Titans for a 30+ yard TD).  They run every bit as well as Allen, but they prefer to pick their spots because they throw so well.  When the season was on the line and they ran, they were elite runners, though.  Either of them could put up similar rushing numbers to Josh if they had 100+ attempts.

[Kirby Jackson]

13 minutes ago, Billl said:

They measure all of this at the combine, and he ran a 4.76.  You can’t compare playing 3 sports in high school to being offered millions to play in MLB.  It’s laughable to compare him athletically to guys who could play multiple sports professionally, especially when those guys are light years better at the sport Josh does play.  Watson had a better 40 time, a better vertical, a better shuttle, etc.  Josh had better velocity on his throws.

 

Two of the biggest plays in the postseason were runs by Watson (throwing on the run after breaking out of a sack) and Mahomes (torching the Titans for a 30+ yard TD).  They run every bit as well as Allen, but they prefer to pick their spots because they throw so well.  When the season was on the line and they ran, they were elite runners, though.  Either of them could put up similar rushing numbers to Josh if they had 100+ attempts.

Allen absolutely is a top tier athlete. He was the first QB ever with 3 straight 100 yard rushing games (again at least I think). That 40 time means nothing because his play speed is elite. Again, he has play speeds the others haven’t. 17 rushing TDs in 2 years is elite. Allen has kept the ball on 3 or 4th and 1 24 times and converted 23. He’s averaged 5.8 YPC on a substantial amount of carries. 
 

Again, no one is arguing that he is the QB that those others are but his athleticism, especially at his size is elite. He’s the EXACT same guy that Cam was when he entered the league. Cam has been beaten up lately but physically they are the same. Mahomes is the only QB in the NFL with the physical tools of Allen. 21 MPH at 240 lbs is way ahead of those others as the chart shows.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[Paup 1995MVP]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

I don’t understand the “higher ceiling” trope with Allen.  He’s a good athlete at the QB position, but he’s not an elite athlete compared to guys like Newton, Jackson, Mahomes, Wilson, Watson, or Murray.  He’s in the next tier with guys like Tannehill (played WR in college), Lock (high D-1 caliber basketball player), and Prescott.  
 

I’d probably put him at the top of that second group, but there’s a pretty clear step down after freakish measurable guys like Newton, Jackson, and Watson and the guys who could have played in the MLB like Mahomes, Wilson, and Murray.

 Allen is an amazing athlete.  He is every bit the athlete that all those guys you mentioned are.  And I would say a better athlete then Cam (overrated) Newton.  Not saying he is a better QB then Mahomes Jackson or Wilson.   But he has more upside then Watson.  And Murray we don't know yet.  And Allen is a far better athlete then Tannehill Lock or Prescott IMHO.  Allen is the ***** as an athlete.  It just remains to be seen how good of a QB he becomes.  There is a big difference to being a great athlete and being a great QB.  If you can be both even better.  Guys like Dan Marino and Ken Stabler were not great athletes.  But HOF QB's.    

[Billl]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

How about we send LJ back in time to the era when QBs actually got hit .... hard..... a lot.

Then, and only then can you make a fair comparison. 

Good thing he’s playing in an era when if you sneeze on a QB, it’s fifteen yards. You sneeze a second time and your out of the game. Same thing for hitting receivers.

 

Such a soft league for QBs yet Allen has been knocked out of multiple games already.  Bledsoe never sniffed an MVP, while Jackson was the second unanimous winner in history.

[SirAndrew]

16 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

How about we send LJ back in time to the era when QBs actually got hit .... hard..... a lot.

Then, and only then can you make a fair comparison. 

Good thing he’s playing in an era when if you sneeze on a QB, it’s fifteen yards. You sneeze a second time and you’re out of the game. Same thing for hitting receivers.

 

You could apply the idea of “sending a QB to an era when they got hit” to anyone today. This would also apply to Mahomes, Brees, and Brady. Do you really think Brady or Brees would still be playing if it were the 70’s ? All of their games would be significantly altered by defense that’s allowed to hit receivers and beat up the QB. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by SirAndrew

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

How about we send LJ back in time to the era when QBs actually got hit .... hard..... a lot.

Then, and only then can you make a fair comparison. 

Good thing he’s playing in an era when if you sneeze on a QB, it’s fifteen yards. You sneeze a second time and you’re out of the game. Same thing for hitting receivers.

 

Bledsoe got hit hard and a lot because he was slow through his progressions and had cement feet. If he played on today’s NFL he would be miles worse than he was for a large part of his career. He was sacked 467 times!! 

[DefenseWins]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

My definition is start a minimum of 50 games in 5 seasons for the same squad 

 

Then by your definition Allen should qualify with the minimum number of games during only his 4th season. Also it is pretty certain they will at least pick up his 5th year option. I like Allen and believe that he will achieve "Franchise QB" status at some point. But your standard should probably be a bit higher.

 

That is barring a "Corona Virus" shutdown of course...

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by DefenseWins

[DCOrange]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

flash in the pan

 

phrase of flash

 

1. a thing or person whose sudden but brief success is not repeated or repeatable.
    

       Maybe he goes on to have an amazing career. But it will take ten years minimum before we know.

   Bledsoe didn’t miss a ton of games.... running around like a chicken with its head cut off is not a recipe for a long NFL career.
    

Embarrassing defensive players with his legs is not running around like a chicken with its head cut off. He's in the discussion for being the best runner in the game regardless of position. It's a gigantic positive for him, not something that should be held against him.

[Buffalo Boy]

1 hour ago, SirAndrew said:

You could apply the idea of “sending a QB to an era when they got hit” to anyone today. This would also apply to Mahomes, Brees, and Brady. Do you really think Brady or Brees would still be playing if it were the 70’s ? All of their games would be significantly altered by defense that’s allowed to hit receivers and beat up the QB. 

I agree completely.

[Rock'em Sock'em]

Aikman / Romo

Green? / Warner

 

[Rock'em Sock'em]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Allen has kept the ball on 3 or 4th and 1 24 times and converted 23.

This one should count double.

 

[VirginiaMike]

8 hours ago, Talley56 said:

Yeah, particularly if we are going to include Luck as he never made a SB while Bledsoe.

 

Also, would Bob Griese-Dan Marino be close enough to be added to this list? 

Marino did not immediately follow Griese.  They had a couple of years of David Woodley in there.

[MJS]

I think there are more teams to add:

 

- Patriots (Bledsoe to Brady)

- Cowboys (Romo to Prescott)

- Falcons (Vick to Ryan, although I believe there was a one year gap)

- Ravens (Flacco to Jackson (potentially))

- Seahawks (Hasselbeck to Wilson)

- Panthers (Delhomme to Newton, although I think there was just a year between them too)

 

Unless we are only talking HOF caliber QB's back to back, in which case Andrew Luck wouldn't count.