Goodell Admits NFL Was Wrong Not to Listen

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

The poster I was responding to asked me if NFL games should stop honoring the US military. I asked him if he found honoring the military disrespectful.

 

I'm telling you this because what you typed doesn't seem to apply to the post you quoted.

Gotcha

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Did you know that an analysis of Philly police shootings found that black officers actually had more frequent shootings than white officers in unarmed black suspects?

 

Is your point then that these protestors have nothing to complain about? Is racism REALLY the key issue here or is it unfit cops? 
 

 

 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Is your point then that these protestors have nothing to complain about? Is racism REALLY the key issue here or is it unfit cops? 
 

 

 

Oh god no. 

 

I contend that the reason that we will see real change in police brutality is that the George Floyd video was basically impossible to turn away from. It wasn’t someone resisting, making a sudden move, etc. It was clear as day and everybody with eyeballs knows it. 

 

I have just recently done a deep dive into some of the statistics and run into some very interesting pieces of information. And an issue that initially seemed to predominantly affect black folks disproportionately, appears less so. But white, black or purple, police brutality is something that we must strive to erase as much as possible.

 

Most importantly, I misread your post and do so apologize. Lol.

Edited June 7, 2020 by FireChans

[K-9]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Oh god no. 

 

I contend that the reason that we will see real change in police brutality is that the George Floyd video was basically impossible to turn away from. It wasn’t someone resisting, making a sudden move, etc. It was clear as day and everybody with eyeballs knows it. 

 

I have just recently done a deep dive into some of the statistics and run into some very interesting pieces of information. And an issue that initially seemed to predominantly affect black folks disproportionately, appears less so. But white, black or purple, police brutality is something that we must strive to erase as much as possible.

I’d be interested in a link to that philly study

[Sig1Hunter]

40 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Hoodwinked? Not even close. And did you not read the part where I said I have no tangible evidence that Chauvin is a racist? I don’t claim Chauvin is a racist. Indeed, I claim it’s immaterial to the cause. The optic is enough. That’s obvious. 
 

In the absence of someone witnessed actually saying racist things, what proof would suffice for you?  Ok, so unarmed black men seen on video getting killed by cops wasn’t racist. Why then? Why the ultimate use of excessive force? 
 

And please don’t hand me the company line about them being in fear for their lives. 
 

 

Hell, I’ll take almost any evidence. Just so long as it isnt based solely on the color of ones skin. Do you have any evidence? You are making the claim that it exists. In 2015, there were 53,469,300 law enforcement - civilian contacts which is 21.1% of the total population. Whites were contacted 37,334,200 times, which is 22.7% of the white population. Blacks were contacted 6,146,600 times, which is 19.8% of the black population.  So, white people are more likely to be contacted by police. I’ve already quoted the statistics for unarmed law enforcement deaths. Nine unarmed black people were killed last year. 7 were actually attacking the officer, grabbing for the officers  gun, or trying to run the officer over with a vehicle. 2 officers were criminally charged. 
 

For kicks and giggles, let’s say that the number of law enforcement citizen contacts was approximately the same in 2019 as it was in 2015. Out of 6,146,600 contacts,  9 unarmed black people were killed. That equates to .00014642% of the time that a law enforcement officer contacts a black man, he will die as an unarmed (as defined by WaPo) suspect. Systematic racism? Show me. 

 

Again, it’s anecdotal and hurt feelings aka mostly “I’m black and I think the cops pulled me over just cuz I’m black and I don’t appreciate that”.

 

As far as Chauvin goes specifically, I have no idea. Maybe he’s a racist. Maybe he’s just a piece of *****? Either way, there’s no evidence of systemic racism in LE. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Sig1Hunter

[FireChans]

Just now, K-9 said:

I’d be interested in a link to that philly study

https://www.phillypolice.com/assets/directives/cops-w0753-pub.pdf

 

Its a biggy. The stat I referred was on table 8. Unfortunately, (or rather probably fortunately) the sample size is not super impressive.

[Shamrock]

On 6/6/2020 at 9:55 AM, JR in Pittsburgh said:

there are some interesting articles out there re why the NFL and NBA have been so different on social justice. While I think Silver has been a more outspoken advocate of social justice issues than Goodell, one of the key differences that people point to is the leadership of the players. The superstars in the NBA all hold high-level positions in the union executive power structure. In the NFL, the back-up scrub olinemen seem to hold those positions.  

The NFLPA boss is a long time multiple re-elected Lawyer- though, don’t think he was a player? But he’s done it for a long time- players voting obviously feel he’s doing good. Is Lorax on some NFLPA as well? From memory wasn’t Trace Armstrong, Troy Vincent and then Kevin Maewae all player heads of the NFLPA. Not sure current or recent though, those guys were around when I was younger... pre kids... If guys keep getting re-elected year after year is that an indication that the players feel they’re doing a good job? I definitely remember when Troy Vincent was a President, that part hasn’t been lost to Minecraft and Paw Patrol!

Is there a big difference in the basketball at that union level. Maewae was a superstar. Or is there more, volume in the basketball. Maybe it’s a team list size thing? I don’t follow basketball.

 

[Billl]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

I don’t. Those folks aren’t really there when the anthem is played, like talking at concessions during a play vs talking in the auditorium. 

 

I’m sure some do. Some folks think it’s disrespectful to sit during the anthem, or to wear a hat. A lot of those folks think kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful. They don’t think that a beer ad at halftime is comparable for obvious reasons.

Just because snowflakes exist doesn’t mean they are entitled to a 70,000 person safe space.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

Just because snowflakes exist doesn’t mean they are entitled to a 70,000 person safe space.

I don't think folks are entitled to much of anything.

[vincec]

23 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Is your point then that these protestors have nothing to complain about? Is racism REALLY the key issue here or is it unfit cops? 
 

 

 

It’s the culture of unaccountability that’s surrounds the police. If there were no videos there would be no charges. The police never commit any crimes according to them and their unions.

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

Hell, I’ll take almost any evidence. Just so long as it isnt based solely on the color of ones skin. Do you have any evidence? You are making the claim that it exists. In 2015, there were 53,469,300 law enforcement - civilian contacts which is 21.1% of the total population. Whites were contacted 37,334,200 times, which is 22.7% of the white population. Blacks were contacted 6,146,600 times, which is 19.8% of the black population.  So, white people are more likely to be contacted by police. I’ve already quoted the statistics for unarmed law enforcement deaths. Nine unarmed black people were killed last year. 7 were actually attacking the officer, grabbing for the officers  gun, or trying to run the officer over with a vehicle. 2 officers were criminally charged. 
 

For kicks and giggles, let’s say that the number of law enforcement citizen contacts was approximately the same in 2019 as it was in 2015. Out of 6,146,600 contacts,  9 unarmed black people were killed. That equates to .00014642% of the time that a law enforcement officers contact a black man, he will die as an unarmed (as defined by WaPo) suspect. Systematic racism? Show me. 

 

Again, it’s anecdotal and hurt feelings aka mostly “I’m black and I think the cops pulled me over just cuz I’m black and I don’t appreciate that”.

 

As far as Chauvin goes specifically, I have no idea. Maybe he’s a racist. Maybe he’s just a piece of *****? Either way, there’s no evidence of systemic racism in LE. 

FFS, how many times do I have to say it, I SUSPECT racism plays a part, but I have no tangible evidence. 
 

What evidence would suffice for you? I mean other than direct evidence like a cop recorded spewing racial epithets? 
 

Has there ever been a time in our nation’s history where systemic racism existed? Like in the Jim Crow south, for instance? What, it all magically disappeared when laws were rewritten? People on police forces had a sudden change of heart because people were awarded civil rights protection? This was in my lifetime. Can you honestly claim black people don’t have just cause to be leery given the not so distant history here? 
 

I’ll say it one last time because this has grown tiresome: I don’t think it’s about proving whether a cop is racist or not. It’s about whether he’s fit to serve; about purging bad cops from the force. Period. Motive doesn’t matter. These men were BLACK. We witnessed yet another murder on TV. The optic is enough to fuel the suspicion and tensions. Stop trying to make it sound like people have no legit reason to complain or that everyone is stupid for having such a visceral reaction. Or that we are all lemmings because we just don’t want to take the time to break everything down statistically like that somehow explains it better. Lemmings come in all colors. 
 

And does this all come down to hurt feelings for you? Actually, never mind. Sorry your feeling were hurt if someone called you a racist. 
 

Have a good night. 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, vincec said:

It’s the culture of unaccountability that’s surrounds the police. If there were no videos there would be no charges. The police never commit any crimes according to them and their unions.

Excellent point. The Unions can not be left off the hook.

[Sig1Hunter]

4 minutes ago, K-9 said:

FFS, how many times do I have to say it, I SUSPECT racism plays a part, but I have no tangible evidence. 
 

What evidence would suffice for you? I mean other than direct evidence like a cop recorded spewing racial epithets? 
 

Has there ever been a time in our nation’s history where systemic racism existed? Like in the Jim Crow south, for instance? What, it all magically disappeared when laws were rewritten? People on police forces had a sudden change of heart because people were awarded civil rights protection? This was in my lifetime. Can you honestly claim black people don’t have just cause to be leery given the not so distant history here? 
 

I’ll say it one last time because this has grown tiresome: I don’t think it’s about proving whether a cop is racist or not. It’s about whether he’s fit to serve; about purging bad cops from the force. Period. Motive doesn’t matter. These men were BLACK. We witnessed yet another murder on TV. The optic is enough to fuel the suspicion and tensions. Stop trying to make it sound like people have no legit reason to complain or that everyone is stupid for having such a visceral reaction. Or that we are all lemmings because we just don’t want to take the time to break everything down statistically like that somehow explains it better. Lemmings come in all colors. 
 

And does this all come down to hurt feelings for you? Actually, never mind. Sorry your feeling were hurt if someone called you a racist. 
 

Have a good night. 

Ok. So no evidence of systemic racism. I gave you evidence that directly refutes the idea that blacks are even contacted more by law enforcement.  I gave you direct evidence that blacks commit more violent crime than other races.  I gave you direct evidence that this boogeyman that you keep referencing of unarmed black men getting gunned down on the street does not actually exist. And, you have nothing. Got it. Keep marching!

 

Night night!

Edited June 7, 2020 by Sig1Hunter

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, vincec said:

It’s the culture of unaccountability that’s surrounds the police. If there were no videos there would be no charges. The police never commit any crimes according to them and their unions.

Look, the very nature of their jobs commands a high level of benefit of the doubt. And I try to afford them that at every turn. 
 

But there is also a level of unaccountability involved as well. And you’re right, their unions will go to extraordinary lengths to protect even a bad cop if they can. 
 

There seems to have been a transformation from my grandfather’s and uncles’ times as LEOs from guardians who serve and protect to more of a warrior mentality. Indeed, with all this surplus military equipment now in police forces, they can sometimes resemble a paramilitary organization rather than community protectors. Again, poor optics. Even my own discourse with them over the last 20 years or so has taken on a different tone. 
 

Much of that may have to do with the added pressure of more readily available public scrutiny, the continued decay in many of the communities they serve in, the ease at which criminals can arm themselves with ever increasing lethality, etc. Perhaps all that serves to tighten their circle, but the onus is not on us to adjust. It’s on them.

[Nuncha]

On 6/5/2020 at 8:43 PM, TroutDog said:

This entire narrative needs work, in my opinion. You CAN be pro BLM (Kaepernick) AND pro police. We do not need to segregate into a ‘this or that’ proposition...both can exist together. 
 

I gave a tremendous amount for this country...NOT the anthem. What Kaepernick did was SPECIFICALLY what I fought for: our rights under the Constitution! I have always respected what he did and only wish those of us who see the world as black/white or ones/twos could calm themselves and see a larger picture. ? 

Don't dishonor the flag as a vehicle for your cause.  There are other ways to make your point.

[Sig1Hunter]

10 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Look, the very nature of their jobs commands a high level of benefit of the doubt. And I try to afford them that at every turn. 
 

But there is also a level of unaccountability involved as well. And you’re right, their unions will go to extraordinary lengths to protect even a bad cop if they can. 
 

There seems to have been a transformation from my grandfather’s and uncles’ times as LEOs from guardians who serve and protect to more of a warrior mentality. Indeed, with all this surplus military equipment now in police forces, they can sometimes resemble a paramilitary organization rather than community protectors. Again, poor optics. Even my own discourse with them over the last 20 years or so has taken on a different tone. 
 

Much of that may have to do with the added pressure of more readily available public scrutiny, the continued decay in many of the communities they serve in, the ease at which criminals can arm themselves with ever increasing lethality, etc. Perhaps all that serves to tighten their circle, but the onus is not on us to adjust. It’s on them.

So cops during your grandfathers and uncles time are now the model? Those were the racist cops from the Jim Crow era that you referenced earlier in your argument that centered around the belief that “cops were racist 60 years ago, so they have to be racist now”. Which is it? Or is everything just subjective belief? 
 

These are just rhetorical questions for you to ponder.

[Rocky Landing]

19 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

Ok. So no evidence of systemic racism. I gave you evidence that directly refutes the idea that blacks are even contacted more by law enforcement.  I gave you direct evidence that blacks commit more violent crime than other races.  I gave you direct evidence that this boogeyman that you keep referencing of unarmed black men getting gunned down on the street does not actually exist. And, you have nothing. Got it. Keep marching!

 

Night night!

This will be my one, and only post to you. If you truly have no idea of what systemic racism means, or what the concepts of white privilege are, then I'm going to assume a certain amount of willful ignorance on your part. But, to answer your assertion of "no evidence of systemic racism," here are several links, which took me all of ten seconds to find:

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-04/Numbers-behind-anger-U-S-racism-inequality-in-stats-R39PKBLwty/index.html

https://inequality.org/facts/racial-inequality/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

 

Honestly, considering the tone of your posts, I don't expect you to take a single one of these seriously. But, I didn't want your cherry-picked, context-lacking "evidence" to be anywhere near the last word, just for the sake of the otherwise rational discussion that has been occurring on this thread.

[spartacus]

1 minute ago, Rocky Landing said:

This will be my one, and only post to you. If you truly have no idea of what systemic racism means, or what the concepts of white privilege are, then I'm going to assume a certain amount of willful ignorance on your part. But, to answer your assertion of "no evidence of systemic racism," here are several links, which took me all of ten seconds to find:

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-04/Numbers-behind-anger-U-S-racism-inequality-in-stats-R39PKBLwty/index.html

https://inequality.org/facts/racial-inequality/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

 

Honestly, considering the tone of your posts, I don't expect you to take a single one of these seriously. But, I didn't want your cherry-picked, context-lacking "evidence" to be anywhere near the last word, just for the sake of the otherwise rational discussion that has been occurring on this thread.

looks like reparations paid forever and personal apologies from all privileged whites is the minimum penance required

[TroutDog]

16 minutes ago, Azucho98 said:

Don't dishonor the flag as a vehicle for your cause.  There are other ways to make your point.

Perhaps you should read AND comprehend the US Constitution. Just a thought. 

[GoBills808]

Isn't it hard to argue that it's just 'a few bad cops' ruining the rest's reputation when 57 of them from one unit resign in solidarity with the two who shoved the guy to the ground?