Bangarang Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 24 minutes ago, Bad Things said: So, was the blood coming out of his ears fake too? Is that at all what I am saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Things Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Is that at all what I am saying? You just wrote that this man, "pulled similar stunts at protests in the past." Don't you think that sounds like your suggesting the possibility that this was all staged? It does to me. If it's not, then it was poorly written. Edited June 6, 2020 by Bad Things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 32 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: They could not have handled this worse. you could say this about almost every police department & union right now 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: If by "similar stunts" you mean confronted police and then fallen, can you substantiate this? No, I can’t substantiate it. 38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't really care whose helmet it was, but I can't watch those videos and conclude "it looked like he was selling the fall". Nor can I personally make out what was being said in the video of him hanging out in Niagara Square earlier. I care whose helmet it was because I’ve seen a lot of people concluding that he was simply being a good samaritan and returning it back to police. Ive seen numerous people refer to this as a violent shoving. I don’t see that. 38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I believe he's not a sweet little old man handing the police officer his helmet and he may be a bit of a rabble rouser - Bill's point that approaching the police line which is preparing to clear the square is not "normal Joe" behavior has validity - but I don't see how that justifies the police behavior. They did not have to push him; two of them did not have to push him at once. They probably didn’t have to push him. They could have just grabbed him and arrested him right there if he refused to follow commands. The bottom line is cops have a right to protect their personal space and if you get too close to them while they’re telling you to get back then it’s possible and likely that things escalate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Things Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Just now, Reed83HOF said: you could say this about almost every police department & union right now Agreed. Fortunately this is shining a light on it and exposing for all to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, Bad Things said: You just wrote that this man, "pulled similar stunts at protests in the past." Don't you think that sounds like your suggesting the possibility that this was all staged? It does to me. If it's not, then it was poorly written. No, I mean he’s pulled similar stunts of looking for a confrontation and ending up on the ground. The blood from the ear is obviously real and this could have been handled better by both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Things Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Bangarang said: No, I mean he’s pulled similar stunts of looking for a confrontation and ending up on the ground. The blood from the ear is obviously real and this could have been handled better by both sides. The point is that the police should not have acted with aggression. It's as simple as that. It was totally unwarranted. He could be the biggest a-hole in the world, but you don't do that to a 75 year old citizen of the community that you're supposed to be serving. Police should be setting the example and not be the thugs. Edited June 6, 2020 by Bad Things 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, Bad Things said: Agreed. Fortunately this is shining a light on it and exposing for all to see. and uniting the white and black communities in the process. The white folks who were protesting do not like to be shot at, tear gassed, assaulted by police for no reason (in quite a few instances), arrested for illegal curfews aimed at curtailing first amendment protected protests , being detained indefinitely, locked in a cage, and have the relieve themselves in the same cage. What happens when the cameras aren't around? 2 minutes ago, Bad Things said: The point is that the police should not have acted with aggression. It's as simple as that. It was totally unwarranted. He could be the biggest a-hole in the world, but you don't do that to a 75 year old citizen of the community that you're supposed to serve. Police should be setting the example and not be the thugs. how many times have you seen this the past week? I can think of only 1 instance in Ft Lauderdale 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 6 minutes ago, Bad Things said: The point is that the police should not have acted with aggression. It's as simple as that. It was totally unwarranted. He could be the biggest a-hole in the world, but you don't do that to a 75 year old citizen of the community that you're supposed to be serving. Police should be setting the example and not be the thugs. We’ll agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 17 minutes ago, Bangarang said: No, I can’t substantiate it. K. 'Cuz he apparently does have a long history as a political activist, so I would imagine it's not his first rodeo but that doesn't make him an actor. Quote I care whose helmet it was because I’ve seen a lot of people concluding that he was simply being a good samaritan and returning it back to police. Fair. I don't care whose helmet it was because he was videoed holding the helmet while he held forth with other protesters in Niagara Square some time earlier; there were plenty of police officers about to whom he could have delivered the helmet if it was a police helmet and he were simply being a good Samaritan. Thus even if it was a police helmet, trying to return it then and there when he clearly had opportunities earlier makes it a stunt not an innocent action. Quote Ive seen numerous people refer to this as a violent shoving. I don’t see that. I've seen a still where it's pretty clear he's being lifted onto his toes and his chest shoved back from the force of the baton shove, and where the officer using his arm to push him is clearly stepping into the shove. I'm not prepared to characterize it as a gentle or mild shove Quote They probably didn’t have to push him. They could have just grabbed him and arrested him right there if he refused to follow commands. The bottom line is cops have a right to protect their personal space and if you get too close to them while they’re telling you to get back then it’s possible and likely that things escalate. See, here is where I get lost. Listen to yourself: the only alternatives you see are arrest or escalation. Why aren't there other alternatives? The man didn't have a gun or a knife or even a water bottle potentially filled with acid or pee in his hand. Why are these the only alternatives in the police operational vocabulary, so to speak? Why are there no alternatives that don't escalate the situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Things Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bangarang said: We’ll agree to disagree. Hold on... are you really saying that you don't have a problem with what the police did, or am I just confused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 22 minutes ago, Bangarang said: No, I mean he’s pulled similar stunts of looking for a confrontation and ending up on the ground. Again, can you source? It seems like an important point. He's clearly been at other protests, but frankly, being at other protest and being repeatedly confronted/put on the ground by police seems to me a bit like it could be a systemic problem with how protests are handled. On the other hand, it is possible that he could be a known *****-disturber who tries to stage-manage confrontations, and if so, that would rather explain the reaction of the police who resigned. If he expects to elicit a confrontation where he's shoved around by police, he should enroll in a Judo class and freakin' learn how to fall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 my opinion is that this incident would not have occurred if the gentleman hadn't have approached the police in the first place. It was not a smart move on his part. However do I believe this man intended to trap said officers into a situation where he would be seriously injured. Nope i don't buy that at all. He may have been prepared to dialogue or even suffer arrest but not severe bodily damage JMO...If anything good is to come of this situation Ithink the following are valuable lessons to take from it. 1. Don't assume police won't be willing to use physical force when you are technically in the wrong even if non violent options would be better serving the public and themselves. 2. Be VERY careful not to mess with cops especially when tensions are already escalated they are human like we are and can make mistakes in judgment 3. They are a very tight fraternity and also Very likely to protect and stand by their own against civilians they are supposed to be "protecting and serving" 4. many are ex military dont assume they will look for a peaceful solution first... I dont think their training wires them that way.. 5. Police training and communuty police relations need serious rehab after all of this. JMO. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 54 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Again, can you source? It seems like an important point. He's clearly been at other protests, but frankly, being at other protest and being repeatedly confronted/put on the ground by police seems to me a bit like it could be a systemic problem with how protests are handled. On the other hand, it is possible that he could be a known *****-disturber who tries to stage-manage confrontations, and if so, that would rather explain the reaction of the police who resigned. If he expects to elicit a confrontation where he's shoved around by police, he should enroll in a Judo class and freakin' learn how to fall the part that felt funny to me was when he decided to approach as they started marching. My gut says there may have been some baiting there and it went south. Of course, they didn’t and shouldn’t have taken the bait (if that was intended). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, SDS said: the part that felt funny to me was when he decided to approach as they started marching. My gut says there may have been some baiting there and it went south. Of course, they didn’t and shouldn’t have taken the bait (if that was intended). That was part of @BillfromNYC's original point - why wait until police are lined up and about to march then approach them? Especially once it was seen on video that he, holding the helmet, had been in Niagara Square for a while previous. I think you are probably right on both points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinceThe70s Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 31 minutes ago, Margarita said: my opinion is that this incident would not have occurred if the gentleman hadn't have approached the police in the first place. It was not a smart move on his part. However do I believe this man intended to trap said officers into a situation where he would be seriously injured. Nope i don't buy that at all. He may have been prepared to dialogue or even suffer arrest but not severe bodily damage JMO...If anything good is to come of this situation Ithink the following are valuable lessons to take from it. 1. Don't assume police won't be willing to use physical force when you are technically in the wrong even if non violent options would be better serving the public and themselves. 2. Be VERY careful not to mess with cops especially when tensions are already escalated they are human like we are and can make mistakes in judgment 3. They are a very tight fraternity and also Very likely to protect and stand by their own against civilians they are supposed to be "protecting and serving" 4. many are ex military dont assume they will look for a peaceful solution first... I dont think their training wires them that way.. 5. Police training and communuty police relations need serious rehab after all of this. JMO. For the most part this mirrors how I see it, in particular the first few sentences. The only thing I'd add is to consider the mind set of a police officer who got hit with bricks thrown at him/her the night before. Happened to my friends son last friday. Not saying that's what happened here, but I have to think that when you're showing up to work in full riot gear you're expecting/preparing for the worst. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowgirlsFan Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Sad just sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 TBD shoutout @Mike in Horseheads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 "...until neither the Plain nor the Star-Bellies knew whether this one was that one... or that one was this one... or which one was what one... or what one was who." Everybody has to feel special in their special tribe. Cops, protesters, etc... "What a field-day for the heat A thousand people in the street Singing songs and carrying signs Mostly say, hooray for our side..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: TBD shoutout @Mike in Horseheads I mean really. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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