Drew Brees: Controversial comments

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

L

My apologies....I should have waited another 30 minutes to reply. I'm glad you came to the conclusion that you did that I support police brutality in such a quick manner as well. Where do we go from here?

The article was laughably bad. Don’t waste your time. It has me dangerously close to breaking my “no R-word” policy.

[Doc]

21 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I think I won’t even begin to consider it if the person who raises it as a possibility is also for the disarmament of the citizens of this country. 

 

Yup.  And even then, there are gangs.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Yup.  And even then, there are gangs.

The "only cops should have guns" has now turned to "defund all police."  So no one should have guns, except criminals.  Sounds like a really great idea to me!

[BigBillsFan]

36 minutes ago, Logic said:

Keep happily supporting the system that perpetuates police brutality and the use of military force against black citizens and peacefully assembled protestors. I and others, meanwhile, would prefer to at least entertain alternative ideas.

 

Why just black citizens? It's demonstrably true white people are shot and killed unarmed at a higher rate adjusted by homicide rates.

 

"Peter Moskos, an assistant professor at New York City University’s John Jay College of Criminal Justice, has concluded that during the period ranging from May 2013 to April of 2015 roughly 49% of those killed by LEOs were white, while only 30% were black....

 

"PolitiFact points out, however, that blacks only make up 12% of the population. By breaking down racial populations it would appear black men are at a 3.5 times greater risk of being killed by police. But that doesn’t include a breakdown of violent crime stats.

“Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks die at the hands of police,” Moskos said. “Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”

 

Maybe the problem isn't a white or black issue, but an over-militization of the police force and brutality on it's citizens.

[Logic]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I think I won’t even begin to consider it if the person who raises it as a possibility is also for the disarmament of the citizens of this country. 

I am not for the "disarmament of the citizens of this country".

I AM for logical gun law reform. I want to take guns out of the hands of the mentally ill and people with criminal backgrounds. I have no interest whatsoever in taking guns away from sane, law-abiding citizens.

1 hour ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

 

My apologies....I should have waited another 30 minutes to reply. I'm glad you came to the conclusion that you did that I support police brutality in such a quick manner as well. Where do we go from here?......Also, while we're at it, weren't you one of the guys who was adamantly opposed to people going out and congregating during this whole covid thing? Surely you can't be fond of these protests. Its going to a terrible strain on the hospitals and such.

Waited 30 minutes? No. Just a silly notion on my part that you would actually READ the content that you were commenting on before passing judgement on it.

I do wish that conditions in our country weren't such that these protests were necessary, yes. I do acknowledge that they are a nightmare as far as COVID transmission is concerned, yes. I also feel that police brutality and racism are public health emergencies, and that NOT demonstrating resistance to these emergencies isn't an option for many people. Resisting systems of oppression has always been deadly. Some causes -- like stopping police brutality and racist violence -- are, in my opinion, worth risking one's life for.

1 hour ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

Why just black citizens? It's demonstrably true white people are shot and killed unarmed at a higher rate adjusted by homicide rates.

 

"Peter Moskos, an assistant professor at New York City University’s John Jay College of Criminal Justice, has concluded that during the period ranging from May 2013 to April of 2015 roughly 49% of those killed by LEOs were white, while only 30% were black....

 

"PolitiFact points out, however, that blacks only make up 12% of the population. By breaking down racial populations it would appear black men are at a 3.5 times greater risk of being killed by police. But that doesn’t include a breakdown of violent crime stats.

“Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks die at the hands of police,” Moskos said. “Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”

 

Maybe the problem isn't a white or black issue, but an over-militization of the police force and brutality on it's citizens.

Finally, amazingly, you and I agree on something: Over-militarization of the police force and brutality on its citizens is a huge problem.

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, Logic said:

I am not for the "disarmament of the citizens of this country".

I AM for logical gun law reform. I want to take guns out of the hands of the mentally ill and people with criminal backgrounds. I have no interest whatsoever in taking guns away from sane, law-abiding citizens.

Waited 30 minutes? No. Just a silly notion on my part that you would actually READ the content that you were commenting on before passing judgement on it.

I do wish that conditions in our country weren't such that these protests were necessary, yes. I do acknowledge that they are a nightmare as far as COVID transmission is concerned, yes. I also feel that police brutality and racism are public health emergencies, and that NOT demonstrating resistance to these emergencies isn't an option for many people. Resisting systems of oppression has always been deadly. Some causes -- like stopping police brutality and racist violence -- are, in my opinion, worth risking one's life for.

Finally, amazingly, you and I agree on something: Over-militarization of the police force and brutality on its citizens is a huge problem.

I’m sorry to pivot, but how could police brutality be more of an emergency than the virus that has killed 100 thousand plus Americans in 3 months?

[SirAndrew]

1 hour ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

Why just black citizens? It's demonstrably true white people are shot and killed unarmed at a higher rate adjusted by homicide rates.

 

"Peter Moskos, an assistant professor at New York City University’s John Jay College of Criminal Justice, has concluded that during the period ranging from May 2013 to April of 2015 roughly 49% of those killed by LEOs were white, while only 30% were black....

 

"PolitiFact points out, however, that blacks only make up 12% of the population. By breaking down racial populations it would appear black men are at a 3.5 times greater risk of being killed by police. But that doesn’t include a breakdown of violent crime stats.

“Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks die at the hands of police,” Moskos said. “Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”

 

Maybe the problem isn't a white or black issue, but an over-militization of the police force and brutality on it's citizens.

Great points. I think most officers are decent people just trying to do a noble job. The problem exists with the system. Race is a factor, but it really misses the fact that policing varies greatly between poor communities and upper middle class communities. That’s where we have a huge discrepancy.

 

The war on drugs has created a culture where we are looking for problems where they are “most likely” to be found. I grew up in a poor rural community. Many of my classmates are now in jail from opioid arrests. I remember not being able to drive the streets of that predominantly white town after dark without getting pulled over. The town I grew up in has a population of around 5,000, and had a large town police force, in addition to the sheriff. I now live a suburb of 20,000 with no police force other than the county sheriff. We know exactly who to target, and it’s poor people with drug problems. 

9 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I’m sorry to pivot, but how could police brutality be more of an emergency than the virus that has killed 100 thousand plus Americans in 3 months?

It’s not, but I think some of what’s going now speaks to the fact American society is over Covid 19. It’s remains a real threat, but I think we’re nearing the point of total fatigue. 

[Logic]

10 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I’m sorry to pivot, but how could police brutality be more of an emergency than the virus that has killed 100 thousand plus Americans in 3 months?

What I am saying is that systemic racism has been going on for 400 years and that, combined with the very real threat of ongoing police brutality committed by highly militarized agents of the state, it represents a very real and longstanding public health emergency. I understand and empathize with people for being willing to risk the threat of contracting coronavirus in the name of fighting something that has been ravaging black Americans for four centuries. 

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/04/870025677/coronavirus-and-racism-are-dual-public-health-emergencies

https://www.wsna.org/news/2020/racism-is-a-public-health-emergency

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/health/racism-public-health-issue-police-brutality-wellness-bn/index.html

https://www.cleveland.com/akron/2020/06/akron-seeks-to-declare-racism-a-public-health-emergency.html

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/06/03/somerville-racism-public-health-emergency-black-lives-matter/

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, Logic said:

What I am saying is that systemic racism has been going on for 400 years and that, combined with the very real threat of ongoing police brutality committed by highly militarized agents of the state, it represents a very real and longstanding public health emergency. I understand and empathize with people for being willing to risk the threat of contracting coronavirus in the name of fighting something that has been ravaging black Americans for four centuries. 

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/04/870025677/coronavirus-and-racism-are-dual-public-health-emergencies

https://www.wsna.org/news/2020/racism-is-a-public-health-emergency

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/health/racism-public-health-issue-police-brutality-wellness-bn/index.html

https://www.cleveland.com/akron/2020/06/akron-seeks-to-declare-racism-a-public-health-emergency.html

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/06/03/somerville-racism-public-health-emergency-black-lives-matter/

I’m sorry but no. Corona was the “it’s time to listen to scientists” era. No respectable scientists should be condoning protesting police brutality and racism as more important than COVID. 

 

Every single one of your articles was posted days or a week after the protests started. It is politically expedient to do so. These groups know that saying protestors are “killing grandma” won’t fly in this climate. 

 

Furthermore, they all KNOW that the social and racial determinants of health are not new. Maybe the time to try to enact large scale change was when we weren’t in the middle of a pandemic. But again, politcal expendiency.

 

NOTHING has changed IRT social determinants of health in the last week. To hand-wave this as “it’s just as important as COVID” is pure intellectually dishonesty by the same folks who not 10 days were calling for people who broke stay at home orders to be arrested for jeopardizing public health.

 

This topic is not conducive to being discussed on TSW, however, but I invite you to continue discussing it with me on PPP. You don’t have to respond to the minions down there, but I feel you and I can have a reasonable discussion in the dungeon.

[Logic]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I’m sorry but no. Corona was the “it’s time to listen to scientists” era. No respectable scientists should be condoning protesting police brutality and racism as more important than COVID. 

 

Every single one of your articles was posted days or a week after the protests started. It is politically expedient to do so. These groups know that saying protestors are “killing grandma” won’t fly in this climate. 

 

Furthermore, they all KNOW that the social and racial determinants of health are not new. Maybe the time to try to enact large scale change was when we weren’t in the middle of a pandemic. But again, politcal expendiency.

 

NOTHING has changed IRT social determinants of health in the last week. To hand-wave this as “it’s just as important as COVID” is pure intellectually dishonesty by the same folks who not 10 days were calling for people who broke stay at home orders to be arrested for jeopardizing public health.

 

This topic is not conducive to being discussed on TSW, however, but I invite you to continue discussing it with me on PPP. You don’t have to respond to the minions down there, but I feel you and I can have a reasonable discussion in the dungeon.

 

1. YOU don’t consider racism a public health emergency. You’re not black, I assume, so it’s not your life or your childrens’ life on the line.

 

2. This whole thread belongs in the PPP, why are you just NOW wanting to take it there?

 

3. No “reasonable” discussion is ever had in the dungeon. 

 

4. I have never stated that racism is MORE of a threat than COVID, only that it is urgent and that I understand why people are willing to risk their lives to oppose it.

 

5. You’re not going to change my mind on racism being an urgent public health issue. I’m clearly not going to change yours, either. We can agree to disagree, it’s fine.

 

 

p.s. Equating people protesting (maskless and fully armed, by the way) for the right to get haircuts and Applebee’s is NOT as urgent or pressing as protesting 400 years of racism in America.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Logic

[FireChans]

26 minutes ago, Logic said:

 

1. YOU don’t consider racism a public health emergency. You’re not black, I assume, so it’s not your life or your childrens’ life on the line.

 

2. This whole thread belongs in the PPP, why are you just NOW wanting to take it there?

 

3. No “reasonable” discussion is ever had in the dungeon. 

 

4. You’re not going to change my mind on racism being an urgent public health issue. I’m clearly not going to change yours, either. We can agree to disagree, it’s fine.

1. Public health issues are PUBLIC issues. 

 

2. Because a moderator already warned me that just because the NFL and the greater race discussion are closely linked and allowed on the main board, it does not mean it is open season for every topic.

 

3. Again, I just don’t want either of us to get suspended or banned.

 

4. If racism was such an urgent health issue, were you talking about how we needed to protest to get it addressed 2 weeks ago?

 

@Hapless Bills Fan I’m trying to be good!

 

Edit in response to your edit

 

 

4. I have never stated that racism is MORE of a threat than COVID, only that it is urgent and that I understand why people are willing to risk their lives to oppose it.

 

Good, because it isn't more of a threat. It is, by every objective measure, FAR LESS of a threat. Oh and it's not their lives they are risking, but the public health by potentially spreading it. Remember "killing grandma?"  Did she sign up for the risk?

 

p.s. Equating people protesting (maskless and fully armed, by the way) for the right to get haircuts and Applebee’s is NOT as urgent or pressing as protesting 400 years of racism in America.

 

Oh I'm not talking about those protests. I'm talking about violators of stay at home orders. Why 10 days ago was it such a moral indictment to violate stay at home orders but now it is not?

 

Why 10 days ago, were folks on beaches "killing grandma" but the masses in protest aren't?

 

Why 10 days ago, someone losing their livelihood (which will negatively impact their social determinants of health as income is INHERENTLY linked to worse health outcomes) was a necessary sacrifice to save lives, but now it's not?

 

I can't make you see the political expediency of this health crisis that only became a health crisis "worth" protesting NOW because people were protesting anyway and no one had the stones to say anything and incite folks. Do you think Fauci hasn't said anything because he's not concerned or because he's knows he'll be eaten alive?

 

There are only TWO explanations.  Either COVID was not as big of a deal as many folks claimed (which, with its 100k death total is hard to swallow) OR these protestors are CLEARLY putting public health in jeopardy and are all "killing grandma" but the head of the Nursing Association can't come out and say that or else they'd be crucified.

 

That's the last I will say on the subject.  You are welcome to disagree, but I believe you are sorely mistaken, and if you are wrong, you have inadvertently justified the expansion of the worst pandemic in living history because you believe that some people believe its worth it and that somehow makes it okay.

Edited June 7, 2020 by FireChans

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, Needle said:

I'm all for reasonable police reform. Let's face it, some departments probably need to be evaluated from top to bottom.

 

The demilitarizing is a tough thing to sell me. I'm not in favor of a military style police force being used on the regular but hasn't the last two weeks kind of justified having that capability?

 

I'm honestly unsure. 

It seemed here in 2016 and 2014, that the most de-escalation occurred when

1) the Hwy Patrol came in and walked and talked with the protesters and took a less confrontational approach

and

2) there were clear commitments to a trusted independent investigation of the police department in question - by the Feds

 

When the police had their line in their riot gear, what seemed to happen is that they'd get pinned down advancing slowly against a crowd of protestors, agitators would incite by throwing rocks and bottles of urine or acid then ducking back into the crowd, and criminals would work in concert behind the crowd to break windows, loot stores (stripped bare in minutes), and start fires while the police were working their way forward and kind of blocked off and pinned down by their own tactics. 

 

I understand the intent of the whole curfew/clearing the streets/police in riot gear thing is to prevent destruction of property or injuries, but both seemed to happen anyway.
 

So that makes me wonder if the police departments didn't have the militarized stuff, would they explore other strategies that might be more effective?  Focus on helping the community board up and protect property, focus on staging fire suppression gear, stuff I haven't thought of?  Maybe there aren't such strategies, but while necessity is for sure a Mother, it also is truly the Mother of Invention.

[SDS]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm honestly unsure. 

It seemed here in 2016 and 2014, that the most de-escalation occurred when

1) the Hwy Patrol came in and walked and talked with the protesters and took a less confrontational approach

and

2) there were clear commitments to a trusted independent investigation of the police department in question - by the Feds

 

When the police had their line in their riot gear, what seemed to happen is that they'd get pinned down advancing slowly against a crowd of protestors, agitators would incite by throwing rocks and bottles of urine or acid then ducking back into the crowd, and criminals would work in concert behind the crowd to break windows, loot stores (stripped bare in minutes), and start fires while the police were working their way forward and kind of blocked off and pinned down by their own tactics. 

 

I understand the intent of the whole curfew/clearing the streets/police in riot gear thing is to prevent destruction of property or injuries, but both seemed to happen anyway.
 

So that makes me wonder if the police departments didn't have the militarized stuff, would they explore other strategies that might be more effective?  Focus on helping the community board up and protect property, focus on staging fire suppression gear, stuff I haven't thought of?  Maybe there aren't such strategies, but while necessity is for sure a Mother, it also is truly the Mother of Invention.

how about this… How about actively organize the protests? Time place route? It’s hard to be violent at people who are enabling you to be heard.

[GregPersons]

1 minute ago, SDS said:

how about this… How about actively organize the protests? Time place route? It’s hard to be violent at people who are enabling you to be heard.

 

That would be a lot better than what we're currently seeing on social from protests in NYC and LA for sure when the curfews were in place, and elsewhere too I'd bet — of "kettling" the protestors into closed off streets with closed metro/bus/ubers and surrounded by police who begin arrests & beatings the moment the curfew begins. 

 

To Hapless — yes community involvement would be huge. In Los Angeles, amazing thing happened earlier this week — the Police Commission board, which usually hides its meetings Tuesdays at 9am at City Hall (not an accident; sneaky bastards). But because of Covid, they had to put themselves on Zoom.

 

 

And it so happened to be a week where a lot of people had a lot to say. And now it was much easier to attend.

 

This video is 8 hours long... but click anywhere in the timeline and watch any 3-5 minute clip. Each call is 2 or 1 minutes long, 30 seconds toward the end. The callers are so clear throughout, though the voices are different and the views differ on some things.

 

This kind of thing should be considered training, and it should be something that police nationwide engage in with their communities immediately. Literally just take some time, as part of your job, to sit and just listen to people. And absorb it. And consider how you can serve that community.

 

 

Unfortunately, the listening in this case wasn't earnest. You can see throughout they don't want to listen. Every other caller screams at them to pay attention and look at them while being addressed. And unfortunately, Moore is still employed with LAPD. Despite hundred and hundreds of calls specifically asking for him to step down. Who is being served by this? It's not the community!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, SDS said:

how about this… How about actively organize the protests? Time place route? It’s hard to be violent at people who are enabling you to be heard.

 

I think that's been happening....I believe in Buffalo, at least one protest that the police knew about, the protesters were blocked from accessing the expressway and shutting it down but when they continued marching the police provided both lead and follow cars to protect them from traffic and shut intersections so they could cross en mass

 

The problem is, people gather outside the organized protests and keep protesting, and when the sun goes down, the mood changes.  I don't know; if the protests were actively organized for after dark and supported, perhaps you are right and that would help maintain the mood.  There were a couple towns that actually set up a stage because some performers with local connections wanted to play so officials made it happen.  The performers intermixed faith and community leaders talking and it worked out well, but those towns weren't the "epicenter" so to speak.

[Gugny]

9 hours ago, SDS said:

how about this… How about actively organize the protests? Time place route? It’s hard to be violent at people who are enabling you to be heard.

 

Here in Glens Falls (pop. 15,000), that's exactly what happened.  Over 2,000 gathered at Crandall Park, which is in the center of "downtown," then police cars escorted them on a walk down Glen Street, which is the main street in the city (plenty of alternate routes that would add minimal time).  Police also walked with them (not as participants, per se).

 

It was 100% peaceful with no arrests or drama of any kind.  I think the pre-planning and the fact that the police didn't show up with riot gear are THE reasons a crowd that big was able to pull off a perfectly peaceful, non-disruptive protest.

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Here in Glens Falls (pop. 15,000), that's exactly what happened.  Over 2,000 gathered at Crandall Park, which is in the center of "downtown," then police cars escorted them on a walk down Glen Street, which is the main street in the city (plenty of alternate routes that would add minimal time).  Police also walked with them (not as participants, per se).

 

It was 100% peaceful with no arrests or drama of any kind.  I think the pre-planning and the fact that the police didn't show up with riot gear are THE reasons a crowd that big was able to pull off a perfectly peaceful, non-disruptive protest.

I would add a third reason it didn’t get violent. Because it’s Glens Falls, NY. Soccer moms aren’t the brick throwing type.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

I have my own opinions, Brees has his, Malcolm Jenkins has his, there is no right reason if that's what you believe in and again that's my opinion. To make Brees out to be the bad guy in all of this for what he believes in is bothersome to me and the same goes for Jenkins but again just my opinions.

[Rocbillsfan1]

35 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

I have my own opinions, Brees has his, Malcolm Jenkins has his, there is no right reason if that's what you believe in and again that's my opinion. To make Brees out to be the bad guy in all of this for what he believes in is bothersome to me and the same goes for Jenkins but again just my opinions.

It’s not bothersome that he claimed moral superiority over all the black players that want to silently protest and bring awareness to racial inequality? The *****? Maybe he didn’t say white power and do a hitler salute but what he said was extremely hurtful and ignorant. But he’s allowed to his opinion and is right? Is he also right to think gayness can be prayed away and that you can be converted into straightness through therapy? Sounds like you are part of the problem. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Here in Glens Falls (pop. 15,000), that's exactly what happened.  Over 2,000 gathered at Crandall Park, which is in the center of "downtown," then police cars escorted them on a walk down Glen Street, which is the main street in the city (plenty of alternate routes that would add minimal time).  Police also walked with them (not as participants, per se).

 

It was 100% peaceful with no arrests or drama of any kind.  I think the pre-planning and the fact that the police didn't show up with riot gear are THE reasons a crowd that big was able to pull off a perfectly peaceful, non-disruptive protest.

 

But Gugny, that same scene is pretty much true of the daytime protests in many of the larger cities.  We drove past a sizeable protest in Niagara Square on May 30.  There were police cars to be seen watching the back of city hall, and police officers blocking the steps of city hall (not in riot gear), but the crowd was clearly peaceful.  We spent the night in another part of the state.  The next morning we read about that night, businesses having their glass broken in Allentown, vandalism to city hall and someone trying to set it on fire ("we have you on camera, you idiot" -Mayor Brown).

 

The Hapless fam had a ringside seat to a similar dynamic in St Louis in 2014 and 2016.  There are daytime protests - some permitted by the city, some not - that are generally peaceful and feature police in ordinary gear (maybe bulletproofs under their shirts).  Any arrests or incidents are minor and in keeping with a typical concert-going crowd of that size.  Mostly the police control traffic at intersections and before/behind the group and sometimes block them from getting onto Interstate highways.  At night, the mood changes and the crowd turns surly and bricks/stones/bottles of piss are thrown, possibly by instigators but the crowd may take it up.  People who may or may not be affiliated with the protestors seize the opportunity to break windows and loot businesses (my friend's brother said that other crime in the city plummeted to nothing those nights and implied they had evidence criminals were using the protests as cover to strip some stores bare).  To try to control this, city government imposed a curfew and then police had to enforce it, so to forcibly clear people off the streets they employed riot gear, armored vehicles, tear gas, pepper spray, flash-bangs, techniques like kettling.  The crowd reacted to violence with more violence.

The real losers were all the enterpreneurial small businessmen and women whose independent businesses got smashed up, looted, or burned.

 

I don't know what the answer is, but the point is a peaceful daytime protest that is supported by authorities doesn't necessarily eliminate the problem of an unruly and sometimes violent crowd later on.  And from what I've seen, the violent, adversarial techniques employed by police don't necessarily prevent the looting or burning, either.