Qb vs Wr, who makes who?

[C.Biscuit97]

51 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

QB makes the WR.....Unless your name is Randy Moss and you can just have your QB throw it 50 yards downfield and you jump and get the ball.

Moss made Culpepper in those years Culpupper put up those big stats.....QB makes the WR in most other situations.

 

I do remember year when Moss was hurt, culpepper played really well. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

What’s the wager?  Pick.  This isn’t even a knock on Allen but I think Watson is top 10.  Watson is awesome

So $1k that Allen throws for more yards, TDs, and has a higher ANY/A than Watson after the regular season is completed. If either misses more games than the other we take out the average to equalize. If either misses more than 5 games bets off. 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Billl said:

Look at the Colts when Manning got hurt.  They won the Suck for Luck sweepstakes and were a playoff team soon thereafter.  Losing elite QBs sends teams into a tailspin.  Losing elite WRs hurts, but Mahomes kept rolling when Tyreek was out. WRs are gasoline, but QBs are the fire.

Polian also built a crappy Colts team long term though.  

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

So $1k that Allen throws for more yards, TDs, and has a higher ANY/A than Watson after the regular season is completed. If either misses more games than the other we take out the average to equalize. If either misses more than 5 games bets off. 

I’ll do it for $100. I’m in great mood and don’t want to take that much from a fellow Bills fan.  I do want a thank you card though after I win for not taking that much money from you.  PM and we will have it for our records.  

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

It’s an American thing. Don’t take it personal.  And this is a no lose bet.  If Allen is better than Watson, the Bills are SB contenders.

 

Don't worry C.Biscuit, I don't take anything on here personal. 

 

I have done $50 charity bets on here on two occasions before. I am always happy to do those. I don't understand fundamentally why I would put money I am not happy to lose on an outcome I don't want to see. That is a lose - lose proposition. 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Polian also built a crappy Colts team long term though.  

I’ll do it for $100. I’m in great mood and don’t want to take that much from a fellow Bills fan.  I do want a thank you card though after I win for not taking that much money from you.  PM and we will have it for our records.  

fine fine 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

16 minutes ago, Billl said:

Look at the Colts when Manning got hurt.  They won the Suck for Luck sweepstakes and were a playoff team soon thereafter.  Losing elite QBs sends teams into a tailspin.  Losing elite WRs hurts, but Mahomes kept rolling when Tyreek was out. In his first ever game (week 17 at Denver in 2017), the Chiefs rested nearly all of their starters.  Albert Wilson and Demetrius Harris combined for 13 catches and 220 yards against one of the best defenses in the league.  
 

WRs are gasoline, but QBs are the fire.

 

 

 

They were a playoff team.  Dumped Manning, Tanked, and with Luck got back to the playoffs

 

Have a QB, dump a QB.  Suffer for a season, Draft Luck and wish your luck holds out.

 

Andrew will always be scrutinized as just not good enough (like so many other QB's) 

 

[BigBillsFan]

The QB makes the WR far more than a WR can make a QB.

 

1. A top flight WR is only responsible for 1,500 yards, a QB has to throw for 4,500 in a year to be considered elite

2. Watson to Hopkins was only 4 points better on QB ratings vs all other QBs who threw to him

 

At the end of the day a dominant WR might still get 1,200 yards even with a crap QB, but overall the QB makes the overall offense lift higher. It's rare to see 2 amazing WRs on the same team. Most of the yards from the QB are not from the #1 WR, only 30-40%.

 

I don't think Diggs won't make Allen much better, it will really be on Allen improving.

 

One more thing to consider is we still don't have that 50/50 throw'em up receiver Allen needs to bail him out of plays. I was hoping it was Knox but that's a far-fetched idea until he can catch.

[Alphadawg7]

13 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

A lot of controversy has always surrounded the question, who makes who?  Is it the Qb responsible for the Wr's output, or is it the Wr responsible for the Qb's output?  In all actuality it's a bit of both.  But, if the data is analyzed and scrutinized, what would it look like and what would it mean?  Is there a way to determine based on data who is more responsible for the production and if so, what would it look like?

 

I ask this question because I fully expect many fans with logical capabilities to bring various facts and charts to the forefront to support their theory.  I know many on this forum will do so.  This will inject much data from multiple different view points.  This I believe will bring us closer to the question, who makes who?

 

Based on pure theoretical analysis, I will attempt to answer the question, who makes who.  I will supply two graphs as a visual aid to assist in my theory.

 

The first graph I will refer to as "the fall off."

 

 

The fall off graph, as seen above, represents what I would expect to see when a receiver is more responsible for overall yardage production than a Qb.  In this graph, the purple represents a stand out receiver.  An elite receiver, so to speak.  This receiver would make up the brunt of production based purely on his receiving abilities.  The drop off represents the fall off in receiver talent.  The elite receiver is capable of making catches that normally wouldn't be made, example, errant throws, one handed grabs, circus catches, etc.  This fall off would represent the rest of the receiving corps as lagging behind the top receiver, but is that because those receivers are inadequate receivers or that the top receiver is simply more capable of making much more difficult catches?

 

In theory, I would expect the results shown in graphs number 2, dubbed "the decline," as results that would better represent a Qb more responsible for production than a receiver.

 

 

The graph above would show clearly there is a number one receiver, but the production is more even distributed among the rest of the receiving group.  The theory behind this would suggest the Qb is more responsible for the passing production than the receiver, as he is elevating the game play of all those around him on a consistent basis.  On time, accurate passes would increase the production of nearly every Wr in the NFL.  There is a clear number 1, but the fall of is not as drastic for the rest, because they all would be catching mostly catchable passes they would be expected to catch.  The gradual decline would suggest a decline in WR talent in terms of not catching passes they shouldn't have caught.  Better WR's catch passes they shouldn't have normally caught. The cream rises to the top, so to speak.

 

Of course there are other variables that are involved in this.  Rooke WRs, new Wr's to the team, rapport between Wr and Qb, and receivers that are simply, not that good. But in pure terms of trying to evaluate who is more responsible for the production, I would expect to see graphs that are similar to these.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

Is this you way of trying to discredit the factual information I provided in the other Josh Allen thread where we made our bet?  

 

You know, the info that showed Josh Allens QB rating on the deep ball last season?

 

For those who dont know:

 

Josh Allen throwing 20+ yards to John Brown had over a 109 QB rating!  

Josh Allen throwing 20+ yards to anyone else had a measly 21 QB rating!  

That is a clear indicator that given it was a list of backups and scrubs opposite Brown, that talent at WR in going after deep balls definitely plays a role in the timing and connection rate between them and their QB.  I mean the date is pretty clear as day on this.  

 

The real answer is QB and WR greatly affect each other.  But I think our specific data on our own team, which is what we should all be talking about, shows that Allen had a high degree of success on the deeper throws to a guy who is a good deep route WR and struggled to connect with the guys that are no more than deep depth WR's or scrubs.  

 

CANT WAIT TO SEE HIM THROW DEEP TO BOTH BROWN AND NOW DIGGS!  Gonna be sweet when I collect my hundo from you too haha.  

[C.Biscuit97]

38 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

fine fine 

Just send the thank you card for not benefitting off your homerism getting in the way of rational thoughts. ?

[mjt328]

I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking at with your graphs.  If you wanted to measure data, this is what I would suggest:

 

- Create three graphs for the most important receiver stats (catches, yards, touchdowns)

- Measure how these stats change each game/season, based on the rating of the QB throwing to him

 

This would at least show how a WR is impacted by the performance of his QB.

To do the reverse, you would probably need to find a way to score/rate WRs.

 

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking at with your graphs.  If you wanted to measure data, this is what I would suggest:

 

- Create three graphs for the most important receiver stats (catches, yards, touchdowns)

- Measure how these stats change each game/season, based on the rating of the QB throwing to him

 

This would at least show how a WR is impacted by the performance of his QB.

To do the reverse, you would probably need to find a way to score/rate WRs.

 

I actually think it might be of more use to go by WR stats and work backwards to see how they perform with different QBs. 

 

This is one of the reasons I think Hopkins is such a stud. The guy puts up numbers and it doesn't matter if it's Watson, TJ Yates, Ryan Mallet, Brandon Weeden, Tom Savage, Osweiler...the guy just performs.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

5 hours ago, BuffaloBillies said:

The correct answer is...

 

Everytime I look at pictures like these all I see is boobs

[Niagara Bill]

This is a great question and like any team sport, the relationships are super important. 

Was Andre Reed more important than Kent Hull for Jim K. 

But if you listen to great receivers, Moulds, TO, and good guys like Peerless, there was always complaints the qb could not get them the ball....their stats and career suffer. They could not help an average QB to be good.

So the good QB can make a good receiver great, but that receiver doesnt often make an average QB good.

But on occasion a great QB can turn an average receiver into a very good receiver. Just look at Brady...at his stable of misfits.

So, the caliber of the QB is more important than the WR

Sounds like a Sheldon Cooper  String Theory

 

[BuffaloBillies]

3 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Everytime I look at pictures like these all I see is boobs

 

Hmmm. When you look at an amorphous blob of dots and see a pair of hooters... not sure what that means.

Maybe you're trying too hard to see boobs in everything you look at?

Kinda like seeing Jesus or VM's face in toast.

 

( . ) ( . )

[GreggTX]

The guy calling the plays comes first. Then the QB is a distant 2nd.

[Yantha]

23 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

"IF BRADY WAS DRAFTED BY THE BROWNS, HE WOULD BE A NOBODY TODAY."

 

I actually think your data proves otherwise.  It tells me that Brady is the only common denominator and he would have been the GOAT anywhere.

 

That's a good point, but add to that a consistently great (not just good) O-line, and there's two parts of the recipe.  The Browns' O-line has been spotty at best.  As for WR's, I think you have to have a minimum of ONE top WR in the category of "route runner".  Plus you have to have a smart coach that calls the right plays...  I guess what I'm saying is that a QB isn't ever the only factor.

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, Yantha said:

That's a good point, but add to that a consistently great (not just good) O-line, and there's two parts of the recipe.  The Browns' O-line has been spotty at best.  As for WR's, I think you have to have a minimum of ONE top WR in the category of "route runner".  Plus you have to have a smart coach that calls the right plays...  I guess what I'm saying is that a QB isn't ever the only factor.

 

I agree 100%.