THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Michael Jordan and McDermott's Process

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I think this demonstrates a serious misunderstanding of what McBeane have been doing.   They told us what they would do, and they've doing it. 

 

They didn't get Kerley and Benjamin and those guys because they thought talent wasn't important, and somehow they "aren't delusional anymore."  These guys have never been delusional.   What they've said, and what they've done is fill the roster with players who have the kind of personal characteristics they were looking for:   Intense competitors, hard workers, guys determined to get better, family guys with serious personal values.   They've been very clear about this.   They don't care how talented a guy is; if he doesn't have those personal characteristics, they don't want them.   So they cleared guys like Watkins and Dareus out.   Plain and simple. 

 

They understood that by changing up the roster in that way they would drain the roster of some serious talent and they would not be able to replace it immediately with the same level of talent.   They told us that.   But McDermott explained that if you keep guys around who don't meet his character standards, they tend to infect the team, and as long as they are there infecting the team, you can't build the culture you want.   So they cleaned house and filled the roster with the character they wanted, to create the culture.  

 

Once they got the culture they wanted, they began replacing players who fit the character mold and who were more talented than the guys they have.   

 

They didn't didn't think that Kerley was good enough and then suddenly discover that talent was important.  They knew all along that they needed talent.   They just believed, and told us, that they were going to build character and culture first.   They did exactly what they said they'd do.   And they aren't done yet.   There will be another talent upgrade next year.  

 

My point in the OP was about only a small part of it, which is that part of the character criteria is the guy has to be an intense competitor.   They guy has to be desperate to win.   That's important to McDermott because he understands that the roster is so large that there can be no equivalent of a Jordan, no superstar who drives the entire team to be excellent every day.   As someone pointed out, that's why McDermott is constantly talking about veteran leadership in every position room.   Within each position room you can have a guy who pushes teammates like a Jordan did, because it's a small enough group.  

I think you consistently underrate talent, and overrate Coaching. 

 

You need the depth and you need the talent. 

 

To do that, you need to draft well, and manage the cap, and get active on Day one of free agency instead of doing what Nix said - sleeping. 

 

To me, McDermott is a buttoned up Coach and all that, works hard, but Beane has engineered trades and FA acquisitions that have improved the talent base.

 

I've also pointed out that competitive or not, fire or not, veteran or not, they've had some serious missteps. Gore, Ivory and Tolbert are all the same guy. Old broken down running backs who play the physical style McDermott wants. McDermott ducked responsibility when asked if he regretted the decision to push Peterman as the starter over Tyrod,  whereas, Beane took responsibility for not doing more on the skill positions and made up for it with the Diggs trade. Now, the Bills still go after old broken down veterans like Greg Olsen and Josh Norman. 

 

But largely, Beane has pushed the roster to have talent and depth. You let Lawson and Phillips walk, you replace with Butler, Addison and Jefferson, and draft Epenesa. 

 

Its not me not understanding the process. It's you and I fundamentally disagreeing with why the Bills are better. I give more of the credit to Beane. I think management of the roster and cap is better. So far we don't have the stories about Overdorf circumventing Beane to cut players, or the Bills not paying market price for LTs. I think McDermott is cut from the same cloth as Jauron. He knows his defensive system and wants to win tight games 17-13. Now is he organized, yes. Notebook in hand, yes. Knows defense, yes. Sets a high bar of expectation, yes. 

 

You and I disagree about the impact of coaching verses talent. You think its Coaching. I think its talent. It's hard to find definitive proof that the Bills outwork/out compete their opponents in a meaningful way. Every Coach in this league says their team is working hard. Without the talent and depth, you don't have this spirit of competition flowing through the team. 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Shaw, the other thing I think when I read what you write about Beane and McDermott is: you act like because they have a plan, built partially on elite culture, that it is some guarantee to work. 

 

McDermott could think a number of different things about football philosophy. Doesn't mean its going to work. 

 

You say it like its a certainty. 

 

He has this plan, you display a misunderstanding. He's 0-2 in the Playoffs here. And his offense has cost him both wins. 

 

How did the Bengals improve enough to make the Playoffs 5 straight years? The strung 3 good drafts in a row together (Dunlap, Atkins, Green, Dalton, Jones, Sanu) and built an elite secondary via the draft/free agency (Nelson, Joseph, Jones). 

 

How did the Seahawks improve? They got Okung, Chancellor, Thomas, Wagner, Wilson, Wright, Sherman all in about 2-3 drafts in a row. 

 

Carroll was 7-9 before that. Did Marvin Lewis suddenly learn how to Coach from 2011 to 2015 and then decided to not work hard? 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

But the Bills have always been this team right?

 

The little engine that could, the try-hard band of misfits. 

 

That's all Dick Jauron talked about. A broken record of working hard, studying the tape, correcting mistakes. 

 

Doug Marrone was the same way. "Earning the right to win". Brandon pitched him as an innovator, instead he a task-master. He'd seen it all, he'd done it all, and he was happy to tell you that.

 

McDermott has largely said the same things. 

 

McDermott and Beane came in and gutted the old Whaley guys - Watkins wasn't competitive, Dareus never gave you fully committed professional vibes, Cordy Glenn, Reggie Ragland, the Ronald Darby trade. But in their places they tried to put in the veterans they felt comfortable with, guys like Jordan Matthews, Kelvin Benjamin, Chris Ivory, Joe Webb, Mike Tolbert,  Derek Anderson, Vontae Davis.  

 

I think largely those moves blew up in their faces. They inherited Kyle Williams, Beane wasn't here when Micah Hyde and Jordan Poyer were signed, Lorenzo Alexander. 

 

The real change I have seen is McDermott willing to go for it on 4th Down more, pass it more. I think the Bills finally have a FO that understands it takes talent to win in the NFL. Rex Ryan thought he could line up and run over people with the run game. That's 1981 football. The Bills invested in a young quarterback and have largely drafted better under Beane, and so you actually have some young players who are good on this team, and have been aggressive in the draft, FA, and trades. Beane has also managed the cap well, the extra cap space gained has been used to add bodies to the offensive line and improve the skill position players. They moved off Jeremy Kerley, Kelvin Benjamin, promoted Levi Wallace. Now they still have tendencies to fall back into the pattern - Frank Gore was this, trying to sign Greg Olsen was this, Josh Norman is this to some degree. 

 

But for the most part, the Bills can practice what they preach about competition, because they actually have a roster with a mix of veterans and skilled younger players. 

 

The Bills aren't delusional anymore about what it takes to win. It takes talent and depth. Unlike Marv Levy as GM and Buddy Nix, we have a GM that realized you have to get your own franchise QB (not take other teams backups and try to luck into a QB) and draft well. 

 

 

 

Blew up in their faces? Just the opposite. They've been moving towards this.

 

The guys you cite as bringing in vets that they were comfortable with ... the guys like Ivory, Joe Webb, Tolbert, Derek Anderson, even Vontae Davis, (who couldn't have been predicted to quit ... I mean it's not like folks on here were saying when they signed him, "Vontae Davis, he's a quitter. He'll let us down." That was unpredictable.) were low-cost guys. They were brought in to fill positions during seasons when the Bills were forced to deal with the Whaley salary cap problems by making it a priority to get the cap under control. Tolbert's contract was less than $1M for his one year. Same with Kerley, Webb I suppose you can say Ivory underperformed a bit but he wasn't highly paid. None of them were.

 

I think we can all agree that the Kelvin Benjamin move sure didn't work out. But you seem to be saying - am I wrong? - that the Dareus, Watkins, Darby, Glenn and Ragland moves blew up in their faces, and that makes no sense to me whatsoever. It's not a coincidence that Watkins and Dareus are now making less than half of what the Bills were paying them. Darby's been OK but the Bills haven't missed him, they've done well with cheaper fill-ins performing well. Ragland's now earning $1 mill on a one-year contract and is a guy who didn't fit the scheme, as showed by the very different type of LB that we've used under McD. Those moves made sense in every way, particularly as cap-savers and having brought in draft capital for acquiring Josh and, as it turned out, Edmunds too. Mathews was injured, that might've worked out if he hadn't been, he was on a very cheap contract.

 

They were doing a near-complete rebuild and at the same time having to completely revamp their cap status. Doing that and still making the playoffs twice in three years was a near-miracle.

 

Agreed that the Bills have always stressed character. But I'd argue that previous regimes didn't commit to it as strongly as this regime has. This group has brought in a ton of that kind of guy to build their locker room chemistry in that mold. As has been pointed out ad infinitum, there's one at every position group. Older regimes didn't commit that seriously to that.

 

For me the differences are that McDermott has a much more detailed, smarter plan and had it from the beginning, that that plan included a rebuild and bringing in a QB with a realistic chance to be a franchise guy, and yeah I agree with you that a lot of the rest is that they simply have a far more talented roster than they've had since maybe 2004 or probably even back to the Levy days. Beane has been a revelation.

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I think this demonstrates a serious misunderstanding of what McBeane have been doing.   They told us what they would do, and they've doing it. 

 

They didn't get Kerley and Benjamin and those guys because they thought talent wasn't important, and somehow they "aren't delusional anymore."  These guys have never been delusional.   What they've said, and what they've done is fill the roster with players who have the kind of personal characteristics they were looking for:   Intense competitors, hard workers, guys determined to get better, family guys with serious personal values.   They've been very clear about this.   They don't care how talented a guy is; if he doesn't have those personal characteristics, they don't want them.   So they cleared guys like Watkins and Dareus out.   Plain and simple. 

 

They understood that by changing up the roster in that way they would drain the roster of some serious talent and they would not be able to replace it immediately with the same level of talent.   They told us that.   But McDermott explained that if you keep guys around who don't meet his character standards, they tend to infect the team, and as long as they are there infecting the team, you can't build the culture you want.   So they cleaned house and filled the roster with the character they wanted, to create the culture.  

 

Once they got the culture they wanted, they began replacing players who fit the character mold and who were more talented than the guys they have.   

 

They didn't didn't think that Kerley was good enough and then suddenly discover that talent was important.  They knew all along that they needed talent.   They just believed, and told us, that they were going to build character and culture first.   They did exactly what they said they'd do.   And they aren't done yet.   There will be another talent upgrade next year.  

 

My point in the OP was about only a small part of it, which is that part of the character criteria is the guy has to be an intense competitor.   They guy has to be desperate to win.   That's important to McDermott because he understands that the roster is so large that there can be no equivalent of a Jordan, no superstar who drives the entire team to be excellent every day.   As someone pointed out, that's why McDermott is constantly talking about veteran leadership in every position room.   Within each position room you can have a guy who pushes teammates like a Jordan did, because it's a small enough group.  

 

 

Nice. Yes.

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Shaw, the other thing I think when I read what you write about Beane and McDermott is: you act like because they have a plan, built partially on elite culture, that it is some guarantee to work. 

 

McDermott could think a number of different things about football philosophy. Doesn't mean its going to work. 

 

You say it like its a certainty. 

 

He has this plan, you display a misunderstanding. He's 0-2 in the Playoffs here. And his offense has cost him both wins. 

 

How did the Bengals improve enough to make the Playoffs 5 straight years? The strung 3 good drafts in a row together (Dunlap, Atkins, Green, Dalton, Jones, Sanu) and built an elite secondary via the draft/free agency (Nelson, Joseph, Jones). 

 

How did the Seahawks improve? They got Okung, Chancellor, Thomas, Wagner, Wilson, Wright, Sherman all in about 2-3 drafts in a row. 

 

Carroll was 7-9 before that. Did Marvin Lewis suddenly learn how to Coach from 2011 to 2015 and then decided to not work hard? 

Maybe I'll respond to both of your posts, both of which I think are very good.  I'll start with this one, which I agree with.  

 

I agree completely that there's a difference between having a system, which McDermott clearly has, and a system that translates into high level success.   And I agree that I believe McDermott has both, even though he obviously hasn't had the success yet.   I agree with a point some, maybe you, have made, that the question about McDermott is whether he has plateaued as a coach and if not, when will he.   Unless he shows he can do more, he won't get where he needs to go. 

 

Before I talk more about that, let me say that there's nothing in the OP that says McDermott is going to be a big winner.   It's simply a discussion of the approach that McDermott is taking.  It's a discussion of the thinking behind the decisions to let some people go and to acquire certain kinds of personalities for the team.   There's also nothing in the discussion that says that every personnel decision Beane and McDermott have made is correct.   It's a discussion of their approach to team building.  

 

You are correct, however, because you pay attention to what people say, that I think McDermott IS going to be a big winner.   I think the Bills are on the road to being the next long-term successful franchise, right behind the Patriots run, and even possibly as good as the Patriots run.   Why do I think that?   A combination of things.   I agree with what is often said, that the culture of the franchise has to be aligned properly from top to bottom.  I think the Bills have that.   They have long-term committed owners who are solidly behind the men running the team.   That includes a willingness to pay them, so I don't think it's likely that either Beane or McDermott will be leaving any time soon.   They have a coach and a GM whose objective is sustained, long-term excellence; they aren't interested in a sprint to the top followed by a rebuild.   They want to get good and stay good, like the Patriots did.   To do that they need a QB who has all the right attributes:  Competitiveness,  brains, work ethic, personality and leadership skills.   They got that.  

 

The owner, coach, and GM also have to have patience, and they have that.   Patience while everyone in the organization learns how to have that kind of long-term excellence.  So, for example, I'm not surprised that McDermott's teams haven't had the offensive flair or spark we'd like, because McDermott has spent his entire coaching career up until Buffalo learning about defense.    He demonstrated that he learned a lot about defense, climbing the ladder in Philadelphia, then Carolina and now Buffalo, where very quickly he built a very good defense by getting rid of almost everyone he inherited.   It took him years to learn defense like that, and it's going to take him some time to become excellent at offense.   Why do I think he will become excellent at offense?   Because he has the characteristics he wants in his players, competitiveness, brains, hard work.    He has detailed written goals prepared for him by Beane, McDermott himself and others in the organization.   He will do what he's always done, which is to work and study until he achieves those goals.   Belichick's Browns teams regularly ranked in the high teens and twenties in offensive points and offensive yards, and his Patriots teams weren't consistently good offensively until his fifth or sixth year there, so the fact that McDermott hasn't done it in three years really doesn't worry me all that much.   If it takes him three more years to figure it out, his QB will just be coming into his prime and they'll be set for a ten-year run.  

 

So I have a lot of confidence that it's happening, right before our eyes.   Astute fans, like you, will sit back, watch it, enjoy it and appreciate it.   I just think I'm a little bit ahead of you in seeing that it's coming.   Call it optimism if you want, but I don't think it's optimism.   I think it comes from analyzing and seeing that the Bills have put all the pieces in place.    It didn't happen exactly by design.   We've been lucky to get the right owners, the owners figured out what to look for in a coach and found it, and together they found the right GM.   There was luck involved throughout.  We could have gotten Bon Jovi.   McDermott could have come out a year earlier.   Carolina could have figured out they should fire Gettlemen and promoted Beane, Allen could have gone earlier in the draft or been a bust.   So, sure, it was luck or happenstance or whatever one might want to call it.   All I know is that it's all come together now and unless something unexpected happens, it's going to be a beautiful thing. 

 

Before people start blasting away, let me say that I see that the weak link in all this is Allen.   I fully believe that Allen will be a Hall of Fame quarterback.   I've said before, he strikes me as being most like Elway.   I think Beane will keep doing his magic, and I think McDermott will get better and better at what he does.   The question for me isn't whether McDermott will plateau; the question is whether Allen will.   I don't think so, but he's still pretty far away from where he has to be.   I think that tune will begin to change this season.   I think the combination of his continuing growth and the addition of serious firepower at the offensive skill positions will move Allen up into or near the top 10 QBs this coming season.   After that, I expect him to be regularly part of the MVP discussions for many season to come.  But, as I say, that's just me. 

[Shaw66]

27 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Blew up in their faces? Just the opposite. They've been moving towards this.

 

The guys you cite as bringing in vets that they were comfortable with ... the guys like Ivory, Joe Webb, Tolbert, Derek Anderson, even Vontae Davis, (who couldn't have been predicted to quit ... I mean it's not like folks on here were saying when they signed him, "Vontae Davis, he's a quitter. He'll let us down." That was unpredictable.) were low-cost guys. They were brought in to fill positions during seasons when the Bills were forced to deal with the Whaley salary cap problems by making it a priority to get the cap under control. Tolbert's contract was less than $1M for his one year. Same with Kerley, Webb I suppose you can say Ivory underperformed a bit but he wasn't highly paid. None of them were.

 

I think we can all agree that the Kelvin Benjamin move sure didn't work out. But you seem to be saying - am I wrong? - that the Dareus, Watkins, Darby, Glenn and Ragland moves blew up in their faces, and that makes no sense to me whatsoever. It's not a coincidence that Watkins and Dareus are now making less than half of what the Bills were paying them. Darby's been OK but the Bills haven't missed him, they've done well with cheaper fill-ins performing well. Ragland's now earning $1 mill on a one-year contract and is a guy who didn't fit the scheme, as showed by the very different type of LB that we've used under McD. Those moves made sense in every way, particularly as cap-savers and having brought in draft capital for acquiring Josh and, as it turned out, Edmunds too. Mathews was injured, that might've worked out if he hadn't been, he was on a very cheap contract.

 

They were doing a near-complete rebuild and at the same time having to completely revamp their cap status. Doing that and still making the playoffs twice in three years was a near-miracle.

 

Agreed that the Bills have always stressed character. But I'd argue that previous regimes didn't commit to it as strongly as this regime has. This group has brought in a ton of that kind of guy to build their locker room chemistry in that mold. As has been pointed out ad infinitum, there's one at every position group. Older regimes didn't commit that seriously to that.

 

For me the differences are that McDermott has a much more detailed, smarter plan and had it from the beginning, that that plan included a rebuild and bringing in a QB with a realistic chance to be a franchise guy, and yeah I agree with you that a lot of the rest is that they simply have a far more talented roster than they've had since maybe 2004 or probably even back to the Levy days. Beane has been a revelation.

You may remember (I don't) what it was that you and I seriously knocked heads about several years ago.   We were back and forth in serious disagreement about Taylor or someone or some thing.    I'm amused how we've come around to seeing things almost exactly the same.   That kind of experience is what's fun about being on a forum with some quality posters. 

 

One substantive point that your post reminds me of.   People bash the Kelvin Benjamin move, as though it was a big-time A+ team building failure.   They forget what it was, and what Beane TOLD us it was.   It was a mid-season attempt to add some firepower to an offense that seemed to be limiting the Bills' run at a playoff spot.   Beane saw that he needed help and went out shopping.   You're unlikely to get a star in that kind of a search, and Beane knew that.  You're more likely to get something that looks like damaged goods.   He took a swing and he missed.   It just isn't that big a deal.   Beane admitted that last season, same situation, he went shopping again and tried to convince the Vikings that Diggs was damaged goods.   It didn't work; Diggs was and is too good a talent for a team to give up on him mid-season.   

 

The point is that no GM and no coach makes all the correct personnel decisions.   They can be evaluated over the longer-term, not on a case-by-case basis but on a collective basis.   It's pretty hard to argue that collectively Beane's been doing anything other than hitting singles, doubles and homers.  

[Thurman#1]

58 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You may remember (I don't) what it was that you and I seriously knocked heads about several years ago.   We were back and forth in serious disagreement about Taylor or someone or some thing.    I'm amused how we've come around to seeing things almost exactly the same.   That kind of experience is what's fun about being on a forum with some quality posters. 

 

One substantive point that your post reminds me of.   People bash the Kelvin Benjamin move, as though it was a big-time A+ team building failure.   They forget what it was, and what Beane TOLD us it was.   It was a mid-season attempt to add some firepower to an offense that seemed to be limiting the Bills' run at a playoff spot.   Beane saw that he needed help and went out shopping.   You're unlikely to get a star in that kind of a search, and Beane knew that.  You're more likely to get something that looks like damaged goods.   He took a swing and he missed.   It just isn't that big a deal.   Beane admitted that last season, same situation, he went shopping again and tried to convince the Vikings that Diggs was damaged goods.   It didn't work; Diggs was and is too good a talent for a team to give up on him mid-season.   

 

The point is that no GM and no coach makes all the correct personnel decisions.   They can be evaluated over the longer-term, not on a case-by-case basis but on a collective basis.   It's pretty hard to argue that collectively Beane's been doing anything other than hitting singles, doubles and homers.  

 

 

While I do enjoy talking to you, I disagree completely that it's mostly about the coach. 

 

I think we disagreed back then about Tyrod (you said after that first year that Tyrod didn't need to improve to be considered a franchise QB, that he was there, and I said that he really wasn't, that the Pats had figured him out and after that so had everyone else, that his present arc was what he'd done the last seven games or so and that that wasn't good enough and that unless we saw major improvement from him he wouldn't be around long). We've also consistently disagreed about what we're talking about now, your belief that football is about the coach. I think it's far more about the GM and the roster he puts together.

 

And while I still don't mind the Benjamin move all that much for the reasons you state, it was a third round pick they spent on him and that's a real loss. That was a failure, a 3rd and $8+ mill in dead money the next year because the Panthers had picked up his option and we ended up inheriting that. It's true that they don't make the playoffs in 2017 without Benjamin. His catches won two games for them if I remember correctly. But me, I didn't care whether they made the  playoffs or not that year. It was wildly obvious to me that even if they made the playoffs they weren't going to do damage there.  I'd rather have had a higher pick the next year. It was nice for Kyle Williams, though, that was good to see. And it was nice for some people who really felt the drought hanging over their heads, I guess. I'm a long-range guy, though, every time. Nothing matters to me except the future till the team is legitimately title-competitive. Can't believe there's a pretty decent chance that that day is finally here.

 

Agreed, though, that the Benjamin move wasn't the horrible failure people talk about it as. It was a smaller failure. IMO the fact that that's one of Beane's worst decisions is a terrific sign. Everyone fails. If your worst screw-ups are only that size, though, you're doing very well indeed.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Blew up in their faces? Just the opposite. They've been moving towards this.

 

The guys you cite as bringing in vets that they were comfortable with ... the guys like Ivory, Joe Webb, Tolbert, Derek Anderson, even Vontae Davis, (who couldn't have been predicted to quit ... I mean it's not like folks on here were saying when they signed him, "Vontae Davis, he's a quitter. He'll let us down." That was unpredictable.) were low-cost guys. They were brought in to fill positions during seasons when the Bills were forced to deal with the Whaley salary cap problems by making it a priority to get the cap under control. Tolbert's contract was less than $1M for his one year. Same with Kerley, Webb I suppose you can say Ivory underperformed a bit but he wasn't highly paid. None of them were.

 

I think we can all agree that the Kelvin Benjamin move sure didn't work out. But you seem to be saying - am I wrong? - that the Dareus, Watkins, Darby, Glenn and Ragland moves blew up in their faces, and that makes no sense to me whatsoever. It's not a coincidence that Watkins and Dareus are now making less than half of what the Bills were paying them. Darby's been OK but the Bills haven't missed him, they've done well with cheaper fill-ins performing well. Ragland's now earning $1 mill on a one-year contract and is a guy who didn't fit the scheme, as showed by the very different type of LB that we've used under McD. Those moves made sense in every way, particularly as cap-savers and having brought in draft capital for acquiring Josh and, as it turned out, Edmunds too. Mathews was injured, that might've worked out if he hadn't been, he was on a very cheap contract.

 

They were doing a near-complete rebuild and at the same time having to completely revamp their cap status. Doing that and still making the playoffs twice in three years was a near-miracle.

 

Agreed that the Bills have always stressed character. But I'd argue that previous regimes didn't commit to it as strongly as this regime has. This group has brought in a ton of that kind of guy to build their locker room chemistry in that mold. As has been pointed out ad infinitum, there's one at every position group. Older regimes didn't commit that seriously to that.

 

For me the differences are that McDermott has a much more detailed, smarter plan and had it from the beginning, that that plan included a rebuild and bringing in a QB with a realistic chance to be a franchise guy, and yeah I agree with you that a lot of the rest is that they simply have a far more talented roster than they've had since maybe 2004 or probably even back to the Levy days. Beane has been a revelation.

I was a fan of Watkins being shipped, I was not sure on Dareus, but that was proven right and I’ve learned that DTs on massive salaries aren’t usually not worth it. I did not like the Darby trade, and supported the Ragland trade, I also didn’t mind Corey Glenn leaving.

 

But I wasn’t referring to those moves blowing up in their faces.

 

I was referring to the Bills first rounds of fill in’s - the Matthews, Webb, Ivory, Tolbert, Kerley, talking Anderson out of retirement, K. Clay, Benjamin, Lee Smith. Those guys maybe hard workers/physical, but they’re fringe NFL players.

 

I think Beane learned his lesson when he saw the neutered Bills offense in 2018, and has got it mostly right since by trying to get players in their prime to surround Allen. The Gore signing and Greg Olsen attempt are things I can live without, but now the offense can have open competition because there is a clear order and the bottom of the group is full of veterans and young draft picks. 
 

The Bills were a tear down project, because their roster was maxed out when McDermott arrived. No franchise QB, the players that were here were not young enough to win Playoff games. Whaley had squandered too many drafts so the team had no depth anywhere. 

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I disagree with that. Bad coaching can lose games and limit what talent can do. Good coaching allows talent to play to the limits of their ability. But it's mostly about talent and the players.

 

This is indeed a well-coached team but they were that for all of the last three years. The difference is that they're now a well-GM'd team and that GM has finally put together the roster they've been working towards. Pundits had the Bills just about exactly right last year, good enough to play well especially with a weaker schedule but not good enough to seriously compete. The roster wasn't good enough. And IMO they've got them right this year too ... they've got the roster to compete, to win in the playoffs, to be among the top few teams ... all dependent on how well Allen plays. They've finally got the roster, and it's been a long long time since we could say that.

I'm not sure you disagree with me.  You just say it better. 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

While I do enjoy talking to you, I disagree completely that it's mostly about the coach. 

 

I think we disagreed back then about Tyrod (you said after that first year that Tyrod didn't need to improve to be considered a franchise QB, that he was there, and I said that he really wasn't, that the Pats had figured him out and after that so had everyone else, that his present arc was what he'd done the last seven games or so and that that wasn't good enough and that unless we saw major improvement from him he wouldn't be around long). We've also consistently disagreed about what we're talking about now, your belief that football is about the coach. I think it's far more about the GM and the roster he puts together.

 

And while I still don't mind the Benjamin move all that much for the reasons you state, it was a third round pick they spent on him and that's a real loss. That was a failure, a 3rd and $8+ mill in dead money the next year because the Panthers had picked up his option and we ended up inheriting that. It's true that they don't make the playoffs in 2017 without Benjamin. His catches won two games for them if I remember correctly. But me, I didn't care whether they made the  playoffs or not that year. It was wildly obvious to me that even if they made the playoffs they weren't going to do damage there.  I'd rather have had a higher pick the next year. It was nice for Kyle Williams, though, that was good to see. And it was nice for some people who really felt the drought hanging over their heads, I guess. I'm a long-range guy, though, every time. Nothing matters to me except the future till the team is legitimately title-competitive. Can't believe there's a pretty decent chance that that day is finally here.

 

Agreed, though, that the Benjamin move wasn't the horrible failure people talk about it as. It was a smaller failure. IMO the fact that that's one of Beane's worst decisions is a terrific sign. Everyone fails. If your worst screw-ups are only that size, though, you're doing very well indeed.

What I said about Tyrod was that if you could tell me that for so long as he continued to have seasons with a passer rating like he had his first season, I would take him as my quarterback.   His passer rating that year was 99.4.  That would have made him 6th, 6th, 11th and 11th in the league the past four years.   Unfortunately for Tyrod, he never did it again.    

 

I'm not saying Benjamin wasn't a mistake.   Well, mistake is the wrong word.   Is was an attempt to do something that didn't work.  Every GM attempts some things that don't work.  Calling it a mistake is no different than calling a swing and a miss a mistake.   Sure, it cost the Bills something, but they were trying to make the playoffs and they needed help at receiver.  

 

Still, I think we agree more than you say.  

[muppy]

On 5/13/2020 at 11:23 AM, Don Otreply said:

Thanks Shaw66, excellent read, it takes hard asz desire, intensity and skill to pull of a championship, and that is exactly what SM is creating in Buffalo. As was posted above any team that has us on there schedule knows damn well it’s gonna be a dog fight. 

desire, intensity, skill YES.  Of the 3 I think skill trumps the other 2. Which is why I can remember there having been some criticism of the Bills (I think erroneously I might add) not being willing to take a chance on a player if he wasn't seen as a "choir boy" or in other words a 100% fit with the "Process". Well that notion went out the window with the Diggs signing for starters. There's a guy who has been criticized for being outspoken in Minnesota being taken by the Bills and why? Because he was precisely the skillset and type of player that Josh Allen needs to succeed to the next level.  Ithink all 3 of those attributes are important but ultimately its the matchups and finding the best players to suit a teams scheme and winning chemistry will follow.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Margarita

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Margarita said:

desire, intensity, skill YES.  Of the 3 I think skill trumps the other 2. Which is why I can remember there having been some criticism of the Bills (I think erroneously I might add) not being willing to take a chance on a player if he wasn't seen as a "choir boy" or in other words a 100% fit with the "Process". Well that notion went out the window with the Diggs signing for starters. There's a guy who has been criticized for being outspoken in Minnesota being taken by the Bills and why? Because he was precisely the skillset and type of player that Josh Allen needs to succeed to the next level.  Ithink all 3 of those attributes are important but ultimately its the matchups and finding the best players to suit a teams scheme and winning chemistry will follow.

That isn't correct.   The reports have been very clear that Diggs was one of the most intense, competitive team oriented guys at Maryland and in Minnesota.  There's a reason why Diggs is in Buffalo and Dez Bryant and DeAndre Hopkins are not.  

[muppy]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

That isn't correct.   The reports have been very clear that Diggs was one of the most intense, competitive team oriented guys at Maryland and in Minnesota.  There's a reason why Diggs is in Buffalo and Dez Bryant and DeAndre Hopkins are not.  

I'm glad the Bills vetted him well and I hope your claim is proven correct. Their track record isn''t perfect in free agent signings (Vontae Davis,  KB)  Having said that trust me I really hope that Diggs is proven to be the guy you expect I only want what is best for the Bills not to win a chat forum posting debate.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Margarita

[GreggTX]

Reminds me of Kyle.

[Chaos]

18 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

That isn't correct.   The reports have been very clear that Diggs was one of the most intense, competitive team oriented guys at Maryland and in Minnesota.  There's a reason why Diggs is in Buffalo and Dez Bryant and DeAndre Hopkins are not.  

Not sure intense and competive is synonymous with choir boy and process guy 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Not sure intense and competive is synonymous with choir boy and process guy 

Choir boy is your take on McDermott.   McDermott's is intense and competitive.  

[Chaos]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Choir boy is your take on McDermott.   McDermott's is intense and competitive.  

You are not following the thread correctly. I never said McDermott was a choir boy or any thing else   I was speaking to yours and another posters different takes on Diggs

Edited May 15, 2020 by Chaos

[Shaw66]

13 minutes ago, Chaos said:

You are not following the thread correctly. I never said McDermott was a choir boy or any thing else   I was speaking to yours and another posters different takes on Diggs

Sorry.  You weren't following what I said, because I wrote in shorthand. 

 

McDermott's primary character filter is competitive and intense hard worker.   That's what he and Beane are looking for, and Diggs fits that model exactly.   McDermott doesn't ask for choir boys.   He does, however, expect that you will be serious enough about your goals that you won't be misbehaving.  

[stuvian]

I don't think Jordan was fun to be around. I do think he was all powerful and ruled by fear. I think he was more powerful than his coach, his owner and the commissioner. Not only was he bigger than the sport, during his reign he was the sport.

His ridicule of his GM would have gotten any other player fired or traded. The other Bulls teammates were carefully chosen so as not to overshadow him or threaten him. They were role players.

The only one he didn't bully was Rodman who cannot and will not be controlled. But Rodman held himself to the same standard as Jordan because he is internally driven. As long as he delivered on the court his off court life was his own. We may never see a team sport dominated by a sole individual like Jordan again. 

I personally don't see much of what lessons from this can be translated to the Bills. I think we may have the best coach/GM combo in football and we clearly have a program where if you don't commit, you are sent packing regardless of talent. Maybe Stefon Diggs will be our Michael Jordan.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, stuvian said:

I don't think Jordan was fun to be around. I do think he was all powerful and ruled by fear. I think he was more powerful than his coach, his owner and the commissioner. Not only was he bigger than the sport, during his reign he was the sport.

His ridicule of his GM would have gotten any other player fired or traded. The other Bulls teammates were carefully chosen so as not to overshadow him or threaten him. They were role players.

The only one he didn't bully was Rodman who cannot and will not be controlled. But Rodman held himself to the same standard as Jordan because he is internally driven. As long as he delivered on the court his off court life was his own. We may never see a team sport dominated by a sole individual like Jordan again. 

I personally don't see much of what lessons from this can be translated to the Bills. I think we may have the best coach/GM combo in football and we clearly have a program where if you don't commit, you are sent packing regardless of talent. Maybe Stefon Diggs will be our Michael Jordan.

The lesson that I drew, the only lesson that interested me, was watching a team that played with sustained competitive fire.  They weren't up for every game, but they were so competitive that they could turn it on almost at will.   They were focused, determined and highly skilled.   They played with controlled fury.   

 

What I liked about the show was that it gave an inside look at that intensity.   All I was talking about in the OP is that it's that kind of intensity that's necessary to win.   McDermott wants that kind of consistent, long-term intensity.   His method is to fill with the team with guys who have it inside.  As you say, Rodman had it.  Jordan had it.   Jordan could lead Pippen there pretty easily - after a while it was second nature from Pippen, who seemed to have it just being around Jordan.   McDermott wants guys all over the roster, burning with that kind of fire.   That's what he and Beane go looking for.  

 

You get the point in last couple of sentences.   If you don't have it, Beane and McDermott aren't very interested in you.  Talent's not important to them if you don't have the fire.   If you have the fire, then talent matters to them a lot.  That is why, as you say, they liked Diggs.   FIre and talent.