Phil The Thrill Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 8 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said: How do so many think Sammy is the worst value? Mike Williams and Maybin literally were net negatives and Sammy was a net positive while obviously not as the level we had hoped. Sammy was the best player on the field multiple times during his time here while Maybin and Williams were the worst every time they got on field. Sammy was a net positive? Not at all when you consider what the team traded to draft him and the tremendous opportunity cost at the QB position. As it was shared before, the Bills paid dearly for drafting Sammy 25 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Actually this is pretty easy. Best: Kyle Williams - He may have had the best Bills career of the last 20 years. Add to that him being a 5th round pick and it’s easy to crown him. Worst - Aaron Maybin - This one is equally as easy. The Bills used the 11th pick of the draft on a guy to sack the opposing QB. He sacked the opposing QB as many times as I did in a Bills uniform. There is not another answer even close. He was a TERRIBLE player at TERRIBLE value. If you drafted a DE in the 7th round to rush the QB and he had no sacks you’d say it was an awful pick. Imagine picking him 250 spots higher!! No disagreements on the pick, the only thing I’ll say is that in the grand scheme thing of things, drafting Maybin didn’t alter the franchise is a negative way the way other draft busts did. EJ and Sammy were not as big as a “bust”’but both those selections not panning out really set back the franchise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Phil The Thrill said: Sammy was a net positive? Not at all when you consider what the team traded to draft him and the tremendous opportunity cost at the QB position. As it was shared before, the Bills paid dearly for drafting Sammy I finally understand what you are all saying- you think Sammys worth is weighed against the multiple picks it took to make his selection happen. By that standard I have to assume you feel Goff is a failure as well since he was two first and two seconds plus more and is average also. As for him being a net positive as I will stand by the fact he was the best player on the field at least 7 times while a Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaise321 Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 20 hours ago, machine gun kelly said: Putin, I didn't want pile on, but glad you can laugh it off. Best, You can argue Kyle or even Wood. Worst, that's hard as there are so many between Mike Williams (atrocious), Maybin, and its' sad I cant even remember that 6'5 WR from Indiana, was it Henry or something. He couldn't read a playbook, or couldn't basically read which is sad. I remember years later was found dead by a river, speculated he committed suicide. He was a nice guy, but a horrible pick. That was James Hardy. Sad story. He is definitely high on the list of bad picks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njbuff Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 A bad omen for this century might have been the entire 2000 draft class. I would debate any fan of any team to find a worse draft class than the 2000 Buffalo Bills team draftees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 18 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I finally understand what you are all saying- you think Sammys worth is weighed against the multiple picks it took to make his selection happen. By that standard I have to assume you feel Goff is a failure as well since he was two first and two seconds plus more and is average also. As for him being a net positive as I will stand by the fact he was the best player on the field at least 7 times while a Bill. That doesn’t make the pick a net positive. The Bills could’ve stayed where there at and taken another great WR that year. He still wouldn’t have been “the best player on the field 7 times.” Sammy was such a net positive, they traded him for a fraction of what they paid. Bad pick that really hurt this franchise....badly. The Goff comparison is very different and not very equitable. QB’s are more valueable than WR’s and always have been. It’s accepted that you have to overpay to trade up for a QB. As Doug Whaley proved, it’s foolish to give up that much draft capital to trade on a WR - especially when your team has no QB. Sammy was a very bad draft pick. 6 hours ago, Blaise321 said: That was James Hardy. Sad story. He is definitely high on the list of bad picks. An atrocious draft pick from Marv Levy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrivefourfive Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 I saw Losman in Glendale, AZ launch the ball 65 yards in the air to hit Lee Evans for a touchdown (I believe.... I was a little subdued after the 4-0 Bills got Trent Edwards killed via a free shot from man-eater Adrian Wilson on the third play of the game..looked that up.). That alone ranks Losman ahead of some of these other high round bums the Bills drafted since 2000. Worst: Mike Williams. Too high a pick to whiff. Best: guess this is the best player for the Bills since 2000.... Josh Allen - there is now hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said: That doesn’t make the pick a net positive. The Bills could’ve stayed where there at and taken another great WR that year. He still wouldn’t have been “the best player on the field 7 times.” Sammy was such a net positive, they traded him for a fraction of what they paid. Bad pick that really hurt this franchise....badly. The Goff comparison is very different and not very equitable. QB’s are more valueable than WR’s and always have been. It’s accepted that you have to overpay to trade up for a QB. As Doug Whaley proved, it’s foolish to give up that much draft capital to trade on a WR - especially when your team has no QB. Sammy was a very bad draft pick. You just spend a lot of effort to agree with what I said- you hold Sammy responsible for what Whaley traded for him. I do not hold him responsible for it- therefore he is not a bust in my mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 49 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: You just spend a lot of effort to agree with what I said- you hold Sammy responsible for what Whaley traded for him. I do not hold him responsible for it- therefore he is not a bust in my mind. Ok It seems like you have a different definition than what I a bust is. To me, it’s a player who drastically doesn’t live up to expectation. Sammy was hailed as a generational talent and while he has shown flashes, the numbers don’t lie - he’s far from generational. At best he’s a capable #2 WR. I just don’t think you can overlook what they gave up to get Sammy and the opportunities cost as well. They are one in the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Matt Milano -Best Aaron Maybin- worst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wppete Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Best - Josh Allen Worst - Aaron Maybin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 Much like the Bills this century, it's the story of Williams' Best: Kyle Worst: Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 3 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said: Ok It seems like you have a different definition than what I a bust is. To me, it’s a player who drastically doesn’t live up to expectation. Sammy was hailed as a generational talent and while he has shown flashes, the numbers don’t lie - he’s far from generational. At best he’s a capable #2 WR. I just don’t think you can overlook what they gave up to get Sammy and the opportunities cost as well. They are one in the same. As I stated prior we do have a different opinion-I think you had a very unrealistic expectation of Sammy. He is less than I expected but a long way from a bust. Anyone who expects "a generational talent" is setting themselves up for a major disappointment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Firebaugh Kid Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 (edited) Best: Stevie (7th rounder and became a fan favorite) Worst: Mike Williams Edited April 22, 2020 by The Firebaugh Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 On 4/20/2020 at 1:17 PM, Billl said: The Sammy Watkins hate on this site is absurd. He’s 26 years old with 4244 receiving yards and 31 TDs so far. That doesn’t even include his 24 catches for 464 yards and a TD in the postseason the past 2 seasons. It’s not hate, it’s facts. He has one 1,000 yard season (1,047) and has four straight seasons below 675 yards, three of those seasons are below 600 yards. He’s a #3 WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroutDog Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 https://apnews.com/206670e0ad6a4819879af3b6540f94c4 They were thinking of this as well. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said: As I stated prior we do have a different opinion-I think you had a very unrealistic expectation of Sammy. He is less than I expected but a long way from a bust. Anyone who expects "a generational talent" is setting themselves up for a major disappointment. You do a wonderful job making excuses for Sammy. How can you not hold him to that standard when your GM publicly used the term “generational talent” in nearly every media interview after making the trade? Was it unreasonable? Maybe, but that was where the bar was set...not by the fan base....by the Buffalo Bills in 2014. He came nowhere close What makes the selection more disappointing, is the fact that he was severely outperformed by many receivers drafted after him. Not just in Round 1 but in later rounds as well. I don’t feel that asking him to outperform the other WR’s in his class is unreasonable at all. So happy to see AP writer John Wawarrow include the Sammy trade under the “worst” category in column. I know you love Sammy but this was a terrible move and he did not live up to his hype. Edited April 22, 2020 by Phil The Thrill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 11 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: It’s not hate, it’s facts. He has one 1,000 yard season (1,047) and has four straight seasons below 675 yards, three of those seasons are below 600 yards. He’s a #3 WR. If he had the exact same current numbers but had done so while playing in Buffalo the entire time, he would be 6th in franchise history for receiving TDs and 8th in yards...and he’s still only 26. He’s very likely to end his career with more career yards and TDs than any Bills WR in history not named Andre Reed. Unless the Bills have never had a #1 or #2 WR other than Reed, Watkins is a better player than he gets credit for on here. He hasn’t lived up to his draft position, but most top 10 picks don’t. He’s pacing for a career of around 600 catches, 9,000 yards, and 60 TDs. That’s basically Eric Moulds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, Billl said: If he had the exact same current numbers but had done so while playing in Buffalo the entire time, he would be 6th in franchise history for receiving TDs and 8th in yards...and he’s still only 26. He’s very likely to end his career with more career yards and TDs than any Bills WR in history not named Andre Reed. Unless the Bills have never had a #1 or #2 WR other than Reed, Watkins is a better player than he gets credit for on here. He hasn’t lived up to his draft position, but most top 10 picks don’t. He’s pacing for a career of around 600 catches, 9,000 yards, and 60 TDs. That’s basically Eric Moulds. The above is very good information, and clearly points to Sammy being a "good" player, if not perhaps very good. What just so many don't understand is that being a "good" player doesn't make one a good draft pick. Things like the draft slot, cost of a trade, who the Bills management passed on to take him, and even other factors determine whether or not someone was a good draft selection for a football team. Donte Whitner at #8 cost us 36 million in real cap dollars. He held out, had off field incidents, and almost never took over a game and won it for us. Yet, he was a "good" player? Was he a good pick? No, and great players were selected after him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Billl said: If he had the exact same current numbers but had done so while playing in Buffalo the entire time, he would be 6th in franchise history for receiving TDs and 8th in yards...and he’s still only 26. He’s very likely to end his career with more career yards and TDs than any Bills WR in history not named Andre Reed. Unless the Bills have never had a #1 or #2 WR other than Reed, Watkins is a better player than he gets credit for on here. He hasn’t lived up to his draft position, but most top 10 picks don’t. He’s pacing for a career of around 600 catches, 9,000 yards, and 60 TDs. That’s basically Eric Moulds. Watkins 76 games, 284 catches, 4244 yards, 31 TDs (3.73 catches/game, 55.8 ypg, 0.41 TDs/game) Evans 90 games, 462 catches, 7260 yards, 48 TDs (5.13 catches/game, 80.7 ypg, 0.53 TDs/game) Beckham 75 games, 464 catches, 6511 yards, 48 TDs (6.19 catches/game, 86.9 ypg, 0.64 TDs/game) Cooks 88 games, 402 catches, 5730 yards, 34 TDs (4.57 catches/game, 65.11 ypg, 0.39 TDs/game) Benjamin 61 games, 209 catches, 3021 yards, 20 TDs (3.43 catches/game, 49.5 ypg, 0.33 TDs/game) Jarvis Landry 96 games, 564 catches, 6188 yards, 32 TDs (5.88 catches/game, 64.5 ypg, 0.33 TDs/game) Allen Robinson 72 games, 355 catches, 4749 yards, 33 TDs (4.93 catches/game, 66.0 ypg, 0.46 TDs/game) Davante Adams 86 games, 431 catches, 5194 yards, 44 TDs (5.01 catches/game, 60.4 ypg, 0.51 TDs/game) The Bills scouts whiffed on Sammy Watkins value at 4th overall. His production is closest to Kelvin Benjamin, who is out of the league now. 1 hour ago, Phil The Thrill said: You do a wonderful job making excuses for Sammy. How can you not hold him to that standard when your GM publicly used the term “generational talent” in nearly every media interview after making the trade? Was it unreasonable? Maybe, but that was where the bar was set...not by the fan base....by the Buffalo Bills in 2014. He came nowhere close What makes the selection more disappointing, is the fact that he was severely outperformed by many receivers drafted after him. Not just in Round 1 but in later rounds as well. I don’t feel that asking him to outperform the other WR’s in his class is unreasonable at all. So happy to see AP writer John Wawarrow include the Sammy trade under the “worst” category in column. I know you love Sammy but this was a terrible move and he did not live up to his hype. Sammy Watkins (4th overall) has yet to have a single season better than Steve Johnson (7th Rounder) and has yet to have consecutive 1,000 yard seasons. Sammy Watkins is a #3 WR in this league. His time with the Rams showed he is a depth WR (<600 yards), not a primary, and the Chiefs have him slotted accordingly to where they never have to depend on him. He isn't close to a #1 WR. Edited April 22, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 46 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: The above is very good information, and clearly points to Sammy being a "good" player, if not perhaps very good. What just so many don't understand is that being a "good" player doesn't make one a good draft pick. Things like the draft slot, cost of a trade, who the Bills management passed on to take him, and even other factors determine whether or not someone was a good draft selection for a football team. Donte Whitner at #8 cost us 36 million in real cap dollars. He held out, had off field incidents, and almost never took over a game and won it for us. Yet, he was a "good" player? Was he a good pick? No, and great players were selected after him. I don’t think anyone is saying he’s the best pick in team history. The topic is WORST picks, and there is no way he belongs on that list. Hell, the three players taken ahead of him were Clowney, Bortles, and Greg Robinson. You can make a case that Watkins was the best value of the group. Seven years in, he’s a starter for the Super Bowl champs. If you can’t find a worse draft pick by the Bills than that, you aren’t looking. 11 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: Watkins 76 games, 284 catches, 4244 yards, 31 TDs (3.73 catches/game, 55.8 ypg, 0.41 TDs/game) Evans 90 games, 462 catches, 7260 yards, 48 TDs (5.13 catches/game, 80.7 ypg, 0.53 TDs/game) Beckham 75 games, 464 catches, 6511 yards, 48 TDs (6.19 catches/game, 86.9 ypg, 0.64 TDs/game) Cooks 88 games, 402 catches, 5730 yards, 34 TDs (4.57 catches/game, 65.11 ypg, 0.39 TDs/game) Benjamin 61 games, 209 catches, 3021 yards, 20 TDs (3.43 catches/game, 49.5 ypg, 0.33 TDs/game) Jarvis Landry 96 games, 564 catches, 6188 yards, 32 TDs (5.88 catches/game, 64.5 ypg, 0.33 TDs/game) Allen Robinson 72 games, 355 catches, 4749 yards, 33 TDs (4.93 catches/game, 66.0 ypg, 0.46 TDs/game) Davante Adams 86 games, 431 catches, 5194 yards, 44 TDs (5.01 catches/game, 60.4 ypg, 0.51 TDs/game) The Bills scouts whiffed on Sammy Watkins value at 4th overall. His production is closest to Kelvin Benjamin, who is out of the league now Looks to me like his production is closest to Allen Robinson who is the #1 WR for the Bears right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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