Talley56 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 I was really hesitating about my answer, TD or touchback. I said touchback but I recall Tim Hasselback brought up a really good point, when a QB is kneeling to run out the clock, they actually take the knee. What would happen if they didn't and just took the snap and just tossed the ball to the ref without kneeling? At the heart of it, if you can't take the time to actually drop down to a knee really quick then maybe you deserve to live with the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said: Is he making an effort to advance while kneeling? I’d be interested to see that.. It says kneeling without immediately attempting to advance the ball. If he kneels and then immediately advances, it should be a live ball. Immediately doesn’t have to be simultaneously. In order to spike the ball to kill the clock without being called for grounding, the QB must take the snap and immediately spike the ball. If there is a delay, it is grounding. Therefore, if we’re taking every rule to it’s illogical conclusion, a player should be allowed to take a knee and then immediately advance the ball. Of course, that would be ridiculous. Just as calling that play during the Texans game a touchdown would be seen as ridiculous by everyone who isn’t a Bills homer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 Yeah I don't think you understand the concept of kneeling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Greatest call in NFL history. http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81a77070/Week-1-2010-Calvin-Johnson-s-miraculous-TD-catch-called-back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Yeah I don't think you understand the concept of kneeling Billl does point out a glaring weakness in the rule book. What if a player takes a knee but many years later, on their death bed, wishes to advance the ball? When is a play truly dead? 10 minutes ago, Billl said: It says kneeling without immediately attempting to advance the ball. If he kneels and then immediately advances, it should be a live ball. Immediately doesn’t have to be simultaneously. In order to spike the ball to kill the clock without being called for grounding, the QB must take the snap and immediately spike the ball. If there is a delay, it is grounding. Therefore, if we’re taking every rule to it’s illogical conclusion, a player should be allowed to take a knee and then immediately advance the ball. Of course, that would be ridiculous. Just as calling that play during the Texans game a touchdown would be seen as ridiculous by everyone who isn’t a Bills homer. If the return man takes a knee and then changes his mind and decides to run as you have brilliantly laid out, that would be too late since he has already "taken a knee and made no attempt to advance the ball." This scenario is distinctly different than a ball carrier who takes off running, slips and inadvertently has a knee touch the ground while clearly attempting to advance the ball. 4 minutes ago, Billl said: Greatest call in NFL history. http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81a77070/Week-1-2010-Calvin-Johnson-s-miraculous-TD-catch-called-back Comparison to the catch rule is a very poor analogy. The definition of a catch is and has been incredibly subjective. What is a football move? When is possession established? What is control? What qualifies as survives the ground? This subjectivity has plagued the game and driven fans crazy. Luckily, the rules governing dead balls on kickoffs are as clear as can be. Or at least they were until "common sense" was introduced and "logic" prevailed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Jauronimo said: Billl does point out a glaring weakness in the rule book. What if a player takes a knee but many years later, on their death bed, wishes to advance the ball? When is a play truly dead? If the return man takes a knee and then changes his mind and decides to run as you have brilliantly laid out, that would be too late since he has already "taken a knee and made no attempt to advance the ball." This scenario is distinctly different than a ball carrier who takes off running, slips and inadvertently has a knee touch the ground while clearly attempting to advance the ball. I think when the concepts 'immediately' and 'kneeling' are called into question it's fair game to ask whether the statute of limitations on returns after kneeling extends BEYOND death and into the afterlife. I suspect the 2020 update to the rulebook will take into account postmortem kickoff returns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 What brings a man to re-mount such a well beaten horse? Answer to the best of your ability.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: What brings a man to re-mount such a well beaten horse? Answer to the best of your ability.... 1. Its not nearly beaten enough if it can be re-mounted, in any sense of the word. Definitely not by TBD standards. 2. This is completely Roy and Gugny's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 Just now, Jauronimo said: 1. Its not nearly beaten enough if it can be re-mounted, in any sense of the word. Definitely not by TBD standards. 2. This is completely Roy and Gugny's fault. I share some blame it's true @Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: I think when the concepts 'immediately' and 'kneeling' are called into question it's fair game to ask whether the statute of limitations on returns after kneeling extends BEYOND death and into the afterlife. I suspect the 2020 update to the rulebook will take into account postmortem kickoff returns. What are you people talking about? When a team takes a knee at the end of the game or half...the player simply touches his knee to the ground, immediately get back up, and tosses the ball to the official. The play is over! But....he DOES NOT take the ball from Center and toss it to the official WITHOUT first touching his knee to the ground. That would be called a fumble! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 1 minute ago, GoBills808 said: I share some blame it's true @Mr. WEO "some"??? lol Was your other choice the Music City Miracle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 Just now, SoCal Deek said: What are you people talking about? When a team takes a knee at the end of the game or half...the player simply touches his knee to the ground, immediately get back up, and tosses the ball to the official. The play is over! But....he DOES NOT take the ball from Center and toss it to the official WITHOUT first touching his knee to the ground. That would be called a fumble! I take it you've never witnessed someone simultaneously kneel and advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: 1. Its not nearly beaten enough if it can be re-mounted, in any sense of the word. Definitely not by TBD standards. 2. This is completely Roy and Gugny's fault. That's what she said.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Just now, GoBills808 said: I take it you've never witnessed someone simultaneously kneel and advance. I assume you're referring to John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever? Let's not get crazy here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronxbomber21 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 To be honest they should've stayed with the call on the field ether way it went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do The Reich Thing Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 I can’t get involved in this again. I’m still so angered about how the refs blew this call and blew it in so many other ways. Could the Bills have won otherwise? Yes. Fact is the refs still boned us here though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig1Hunter Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Billl said: It says kneeling without immediately attempting to advance the ball. If he kneels and then immediately advances, it should be a live ball. Immediately doesn’t have to be simultaneously. In order to spike the ball to kill the clock without being called for grounding, the QB must take the snap and immediately spike the ball. If there is a delay, it is grounding. Therefore, if we’re taking every rule to it’s illogical conclusion, a player should be allowed to take a knee and then immediately advance the ball. No. It doesn’t say kneeling and then making no effort to advance the ball. It says kneeling and making no effort to advance the ball. So, yes. It has to be done simultaneously. Either way, in the situation being discussed he didn’t kneel or go to the ground which is an expressly required element of downing the ball. This fact is not (legitimately) debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehfeuh57 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 It was a fumble and a touchdown. players fumble forward all the time, you would have to judge intent was a forward pass, This seems possible under a review for the official to rule pass, but i would disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 8 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said: No. It doesn’t say kneeling and then making no effort to advance the ball. It says kneeling and making no effort to advance the ball. So, yes. It has to be done simultaneously. Either way, in the situation being discussed he didn’t kneel or go to the ground which is an expressly required element of downing the ball. This fact is not (legitimately) debatable. Then I guess the QB must simultaneously spike the ball while taking the snap. Since this can’t be done, every spike ever should have been flagged for grounding. There you go. This is the dumbest conversation ever. Feel free to think the refs screwed the Bills all you want. They didn’t, and it doesn’t matter if they did. The game is over, and no amount of railing against the use of common sense will change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig1Hunter Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, Billl said: Then I guess the QB must simultaneously spike the ball while taking the snap. Since this can’t be done, every spike ever should have been flagged for grounding. There you go. This is the dumbest conversation ever. Feel free to think the refs screwed the Bills all you want. They didn’t, and it doesn’t matter if they did. The game is over, and no amount of railing against the use of common sense will change that. Huh? What rule are you quoting with that asinine statement? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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