Covid-19 discussion and humor thread [Was: CDC says don't touch your face to avoid Covid19...Vets to the rescue!

[Not at the table Karlos]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Look, you said "Other thing is quarantine people that are at risk. Elderly, immunodeficiency or anyone at risk. Keep them inside or throw them all in nursing homes"

 

I explain why that's a response that makes me angry, nothing personal:

"Nursing home, assisted living, senior living folks don't live in a vacuum.  They require care and services.  Who is caring for them?  They don't have a lot of contact with nurses and they might see a doctor every couple of months.  It's largely aides of various sorts.  Personal assistance bathing/dressing.  Even Senior Living, they need groceries, they need help with cleaning and laundry, maybe medication reminders or setup etc.

 

The aides aren't payed well.  They may not get sick time - our gov't exempted Nursing Home and Hospitals from having to provide sick pay when they passed the Families First covid act.    They don't get paid time off to quarantine or isolate - no work, no pay.  They traditionally dope themselves up on tylenol and nyquil and work anyway.  Other countries provide these things by the way."

 

And THIS is what you come up with?  Whatever you think of the policy - and it was not a good policy, but as someone else pointed out, it was CDC guidance at the time and most of the patients with covid-19 CAME from nursing homes and the homes already had the virus in the facility and just didn't know it yet due to limited testing - it's OVER.  It's DONE.

 

It's NOT a solution, I explained why.

 

 

You are correct here, if everyone was on the same page with the same guidelines and restrictions we could fix this - you know, maybe like Europe (EU) mostly has?  Japan?  S. Korea? Singapore?  It's really not that hard, but it can't be done by hiding from data or magical thinking - hoping it will go away, failing to logically and logistically assess the problems and find solutions.

 

 

You and a lot of your "closest friends" working in vaccine development would like to know!
 

The current thinking if covid-19 follows the path of SARS or MERS, is that immunity will persist 6 months to a year.  BUT - it should be noted that antibodies aren't everything with immune response.  You can no longer have antibodies circulating in your plasma, but still have immunity via B-cells (that produce antibodies) or T-cell (cellular immunity) response.  It's been noted that some people who had a mild or an asymptomatic infection don't have antibodies (though my kid tested positive), but they may still have an effective immune response if they have immune memory in their B-cells and T-cells that can mobilize rapidly in response to re-infection.

On the other hand, some people who produced a high level of antibodies, for whatever reason may not have a very effective immune "memory" so once the antibodies they produced deplete (which indeed takes about 2 months) they become vulnerable again.

 

The nursing home comment was sarcasm. It was stupid to throw sick people into nursing homes

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

..it will be interesting to see as these treatments/vaccines (hopefully) come to market, how insurers approach the costs, deductibles, etc.......back when the Hepatitis C 90 day treatment cure was developed, the pill was $1,000 per day for 90 days......many employers with self funded insurance Plans (particularly prescription coverage) watched their Plans go belly up.....for example, three patients in treatment equates to a $270,000 Plan pay out..........

[The Dean]

18 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

The nursing home comment was sarcasm. It was stupid to throw sick  contagious people into nursing homes

 

Hopefully that's what you really meant. They put plenty of "sick" people in nursing homes. My mother has end stage Alzheimer's, plus other conditions. She was moved from Assisted Living into a nursing home, because she is too sick for the ALS. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 7/4/2020 at 2:14 PM, driddles said:

Question for @Hapless Bills Fan 
We know that sneezes and coughs hang in the air much longer in cold weather, I've read 1 second in hot weather before they drop to a surface vs 10 seconds or more in cold weather.   Could this be the reason that Covid-19 spreads so much faster in meat packing plants vs the air conditioner circulation theory?  

I'm convinced if we haven't smothered this by October it will spread like wildfire.

 

Good question, certainly cooler temps and humidity play a role in virus survival. 

But if it were just cold per se vs AC circulating the air, would it spread as widely?

Hard to say; since the fans blowing cold air are necessary to keep the plants cold, not sure how you separate.

 

Maybe someone has the definitive wisdom, but I don’t feel it’s convincingly understood why flu spreads more in cold months in temperate climates.  It apparently spreads more in monsoon weather in tropical climates?  Is it an “everybody crowds indoors” thing?

 

20 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

The nursing home comment was sarcasm. It was stupid to throw sick people into nursing homes

 

If there was not already COVID-19 infection in the nursing home, it was certainly a mistake.  But one could argue that in general, it was a mistake to tell sick people to go home and quarantine with their (not yet sick) relatives, as well.  That definitely extended the epidemic and led to a bunch of deaths.  Why was it done, same reason -  to preserve hospital beds for the most critically ill patients.  

 Initially the Central Park/Javitts Center hospitals were intended for non-Covid patients instead of recognizing the need for spaces where Covid patients could get vitals and oxygen levels monitored and receive supportive care such as supplemental oxygen and hydration.  That those spaces were put together with Federal support and an agreement that reserved them for non-COVID patients was Initially beyond NYS control.

 

There’s something to be said for the Chinese/S. Korean/Singaporean standard that diagnosed positive people go to hospital, if not very ill to a low-level hospital that is more like a dorm

And to my understanding, a lot of those nursing homes already had COVID-19 in the facilities

[Augie]

6 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

..it will be interesting to see as these treatments/vaccines (hopefully) come to market, how insurers approach the costs, deductibles, etc.......back when the Hepatitis C 90 day treatment cure was developed, the pill was $1,000 per day for 90 days......many employers with self funded insurance Plans (particularly prescription coverage) watched their Plans go belly up.....for example, three patients in treatment equates to a $270,000 Plan pay out..........

 

If you haven't checked yesterday’s 3:24 pm last post by @Hapless Bills Fan in the facts only thread, I highly recommend it. We can all use some good news! 

 

 

.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Augie

[Bad Things]

Very interesting to read that Trump and the FDA are claiming that 99% of Covid-19 cases are harmless.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/fda-commissioner-wont-defend-trump-99-percent-coronavirus-cases-harmless-2020-7?r=AU&IR=T

[The Dean]

32 minutes ago, Bad Things said:

Very interesting to read that Trump and the FDA are claiming that 99% of Covid-19 cases are harmless.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/fda-commissioner-wont-defend-trump-99-percent-coronavirus-cases-harmless-2020-7?r=AU&IR=T

 

???????

 

I see where Trump claimed that. I don't see the FDA claimed that, though.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

41 minutes ago, Bad Things said:

Very interesting to read that Trump and the FDA are claiming that 99% of Covid-19 cases are harmless.

https://www.businessinsider.com/fda-commissioner-wont-defend-trump-99-percent-coronavirus-cases-harmless-2020-7?r=AU&IR=T

 

Food and Drug Administration commissioner Dr. Stephen Hahn on Sunday would neither defend nor explicitly contradict President Donald Trump's baseless assertion that 99% of COVID-19 cases are "totally harmless."  "I'm not going to get into who's right and who is wrong," Dr. Stephen Hahn said during a CNN interview. 

 

Did Dr Stephen Hahn have his manhood surgically excised, or was it simply isolated and placed in a blind trust for the duration of his appointment? 

 

We're still rocking a 4.54% case fatality rate in the US of A, in case anyone's lost track.  For closed cases, 9% fatality rate

 

Do I think it's that high, per se, for countries which keep the disease under control and maintain hospital capacity?   Nope.

 

But people confuse, all the time, morbidity and mortality.  This disease hasn't been filling up ERs and ICUs everywhere it circulates unchecked because it's 99% "harmless"

[Punching Bag]

18 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

???????

 

I see where Trump claimed that. I don't see the FDA claimed that, though.

 

No he said nothing on Trump's claim.  I have worked a number of agencies and directions were to never contradict political appointees in charge.

The agency I work for will not even let us go back to work unless we have letter saying we are essential and signed by head of facility.

 

Quote

Refusing to let up, Bash then flatly asked Hahn if Trump was "wrong" to say 99% of cases are "totally harmless."

"I'm not going to get into who's right and who is wrong," Hahn said in response. 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 minutes ago, The Dean said:

???????

I see where Trump claimed that. I don't see the FDA claimed that, though.

 

Trump claimed that and Dr Stephen Hahn, our current FDA commissioner, failed to explictly comment upon that assertion.  "Silence is taken as consent"

[Punching Bag]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Trump claimed that and Dr Stephen Hahn, our current FDA commissioner, failed to explicitly comment upon that assertion.  "Silence is taken as consent"

 

If you do not have something good to say (about your boss) don't say it.

I am really surprised he has not resigned yet.

[The Dean]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Trump claimed that and Dr Stephen Hahn, our current FDA commissioner, failed to explictly comment upon that assertion.  "Silence is taken as consent"

 

 

In a situation like that, I would take silence as the best rebuttal he can give and keep his job. A gutless wonder? 

[Bad Things]

It is simply shocking how this pandemic has become such a political issue up in America. 

It speaks volumes about the broken/corrupt system if health professionals don't feel safe speaking the truth due to political pressure. 

[Augie]

47 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

 

In a situation like that, I would take silence as the best rebuttal he can give and keep his job. A gutless wonder? 

 

Silence can speak volumes. I don’t blame a guy for wanting to continue to take care of his family, and saying nothing can say a lot. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

53 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

If you do not have something good to say (about your boss) don't say it.

I am really surprised he has not resigned yet.

 

Suppose it's true only 1% of covid-19 cases are serious - require prolonged hospitalization or critical care.

We have 329 million people living in this country.   Subtract the 1.3M who have had covid-19 and recovered - 328. 

 

If only 50% contract covid-19, 164M people.  If only 1% are serious, 1.64M people. 

 

How many hospital and ICU beds we got?  Per aha, 792,000 hospital beds; 55,000 medical/surgical ICU beds and another 22,000 cardiac or "other" ICU beds.

Since some of those "serious" patients seem to require 3-4 weeks of hospitalization, seems to me we still got a problem if too many people get sick at once.

 

I think Hahn could have made a few points about why, whether or not it's correct, it's not a useful way to think about covid-19, without contradicting his boss.

 

1 minute ago, Augie said:

Silence can speak volumes. I don’t blame a guy for wanting to continue to take care of his family, and saying nothing can say a lot. 

 

He can take care of his family quite well without that job.

 

He's the FDA commissioner.  He's supposed to be concerned for the health and well being of people beyond his family.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Suppose it's true only 1% of covid-19 cases are serious - require prolonged hospitalization or critical care.

We have 329 million people living in this country.   Subtract the 1.3M who have had covid-19 and recovered - 328. 

 

If only 50% contract covid-19, 164M people.  If only 1% are serious, 1.64M people. 

 

How many hospital and ICU beds we got?  Per aha, 792,000 hospital beds; 55,000 medical/surgical ICU beds and another 22,000 cardiac or "other" ICU beds.

Since some of those "serious" patients seem to require 3-4 weeks of hospitalization, seems to me we still got a problem if too many people get sick at once.

 

I think Hahn could have made a few points about why, whether or not it's correct, it's not a useful way to think about covid-19, without contradicting his boss.

 

 

He can take care of his family quite well without that job.

 

He's the FDA commissioner.  He's supposed to be concerned for the health and well being of people beyond his family.

 

This would only lead me to go off on the boss, and I really don’t want to go there. I try not to judge others on their personal decisions of this kind. Maybe he’s working on an exit strategy? I have no idea what his personal concerns, financial status or beliefs are. The silence (which I’m not fully versed in) does speak. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

This would only lead me to go off on the boss, and I really don’t want to go there. I try not to judge others on their personal decisions of this kind. Maybe he’s working on an exit strategy? I have no idea what his personal concerns, financial status or beliefs are. The silence (which I’m not fully versed in) does speak. 

 

What message do you believe his silence conveys?

 

I think to many who are already "Fake News" "Kung Flu" "Nothing to worry about" the message his silence conveys is "hey, the head of the FDA had nothing to say against that" 

 

It's not a benign silence.

[The Dean]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

I think Hahn could have made a few points about why, whether or not it's correct, it's not a useful way to think about covid-19, without contradicting his boss.

 

 

He can take care of his family quite well without that job.

 

He's the FDA commissioner.  He's supposed to be concerned for the health and well being of people beyond his family.

 

 

Of course you are correct. That's what he SHOULD do. But he's a Trump appointee who apparently won't go on record contradicting his boss. With the exception of Fauci, we see what happens to those who decide to speak their minds instead of simply trumpeting the President's pronouncements. 

 

As a lifelong single man (no kids, don't own a house) I have felt no pressure to simply agree with my boss. I've contradicted my bosses when they were obviously wrong about something in an area where I was the department head. I've quit jobs (with no savings and no immediate prospects) over matters of principle. But I understand others don't have that same freedom. In Hahn's case, he simply may be trying to cover for someone he considers a friend or at least important ally. 

 

With that said, I honestly felt that since he did NOT agree with Trump (which I believe he would have done if he actually agreed) it was a clear sign he did NOT agree, and he felt this was his only way out, under the circumstances. I'm NOT defending him, as he should have spoken his mind on this. But I am attempting to understand him. I do think it's a problem going forward as many will conclude that silence is a tacit agreement. It adds to the confusion in a time where clarity is of utmost importance. 

 

 

[Augie]

17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What message do you believe his silence conveys?

 

I think to many who are already "Fake News" "Kung Flu" "Nothing to worry about" the message his silence conveys is "hey, the head of the FDA had nothing to say against that" 

 

It's not a benign silence.

 

Without knowing more about he situation, I’ll pass on much going further. IF he failed to support the bosses comments, and just went silent, it may signal a lack of support for them. Fauci seemed to disappear from the news conferences when he wasn’t entirely on board with every comment. I don’t fault Fauci. Different people deal with it differently. 

 

I didn’t see it or read it, so you are probably much more informed. I wouldn’t want to work for the guy, I know that. I also know it’s his job, but he may also see taking care of his family as a priority. Or, there may be political dealings backstage we don’t know about. I’ve also known a lot of people earning 7 figures who were just hanging on financially. We don’t know what we don’t know. I’m not praising him or saying it’s a benign silence. I’m just withholding judgement without more knowledge. 

 

.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Augie

[K-9]

21 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What message do you believe his silence conveys?

 

I think to many who are already "Fake News" "Kung Flu" "Nothing to worry about" the message his silence conveys is "hey, the head of the FDA had nothing to say against that" 

 

It's not a benign silence.

His silence makes him complicit in the bullcrap espoused by his boss. It’s that simple. And he’s forgotten who he works for as a result. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by K-9