GottaRun Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 hours ago, shoshin said: There is ONE America not two. Lincoln was president of a war on this point. Your graph is cases but what I see is sick Americans and dead Americans, not sick red vs blue voters. I hate this crap. If you're an American and believe in America, you have empathy with Americans in pain regardless of their vote and want to help them. The first word in our country's name is the most important one. 1. I'm not an American, I'm a Canadian 2. The DataIsBeautiful sub reddit just presents data in an easier to understand visual format 3. As this is the Covid discussion thread I think the graph is relevant You can "hate this crap" if you like, but I think it provides value Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 hours ago, shoshin said: There is ONE America not two. Lincoln was president of a war on this point. Your graph is cases but what I see is sick Americans and dead Americans, not sick red vs blue voters. I hate this crap. If you're an American and believe in America, you have empathy with Americans in pain regardless of their vote and want to help them. The first word in our country's name is the most important one. On the one hand, I applaud and agree with you. A friend of mine posted this graphic on Facebook back in June when that blue line was not trending up so it looked like a better point, and I took him to task for it “just what point are you trying to make here?” And we had some back and forth about it. The main problem I have with it is if you look under the hood, you’ll see some states with Republican governors (New Hampshire, for example) that are doing well, and some states with Democratic governors, like California, that are doing horribly. On the other hand, I think it’s clear the response to the virus has become politicized, with “blue” states overall more inclined to listen to their public health officials and institute measures such as mask wearing, and “red” states more inclined to frame mask wearing as a “personal choice” or even go so far as to frame wearing a mask as disrespect for the President on the one hand or an aspersions on one’s personal courage on the other, or believe “who cares because it’s 99% harmless”. AND THE VIRUS DOESN’T CARE ABOUT YOUR POLITICS or your personal choice or your personal courage. It will rise where people behave in a way that allows it to rise - like indoor crowds not wearing masks or gatherings of extended family/friends where there is close personal contact. It will fall when people behave in a way that stymies it, like wearing masks that block transmission (your mask protects ME, so much for my personal choice), avoiding indoor crowds, remaining spatially distant even when gathered with family and friends. In states with Republican governors where the people by and large follow good advice, they’re doing just fine. In states with Democratic governors where despite the Governor’s policies people decided they just don’t GAS (*cough* California *cough*) things suck, Over. And in states like NY that kicked this things ass, there will be a struggle to keep it that way because in the end, it’s like trying to maintain a pee-free zone in a swimming pool. We are all in the same pool and we will swim efficiently or flounder together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottaRun Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) "We are all in the same pool and we will swim efficiently or flounder together." I love that. As a Canadian season ticket holder (since 2004), I've accepted that I will not be able to go to Bills games this year, the border won't open. As long as there's even one state that keeps peeing in the pool that pool will remain closed to me. If the peeing kids had blue hats on I'd still be showing the graph. Edited July 10, 2020 by driddles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 hour ago, driddles said: 1. I'm not an American, I'm a Canadian Then I speak to others who often share this in the same way. 1 hour ago, driddles said: 2. The DataIsBeautiful sub reddit just presents data in an easier to understand visual format 3. As this is the Covid discussion thread I think the graph is relevant You can "hate this crap" if you like, but I think it provides value If you posted this in April, it showed the opposite point ("Dem" leaning states were getting obliterated). But California (the most Dem state in the union) is leading the nation in Covid deaths right now. The virus doesn't care what politics anyone has. If you changed the legend from Rep and Dem to "States that were not hit hard in March and April" and "States that were hit hard in March and April" the graph would be more extreme because California would be added to the red line. The graph was constructed for one purpose: Division. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottaRun Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 hour ago, shoshin said: The graph was constructed for one purpose: Division. Or the graph can be used for education. What is happening in those states that leads to higher numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, driddles said: Or the graph can be used for education. What is happening in those states that leads to higher numbers? Could be lots of things. But splitting it by party is meant to sew division. 3 months ago, you had the likes of John in Jax saying FL was in great shape and look at the Dem state mess. And if you count total deaths, the D-leaning states are WAY WAY WAY behind the more R states. It's just a dumb way to look at things. We are one country. The virus isn't playing politics. People are. If you split it by states that saw spikes in march vs not, the difference is more dramatic and meaningful, and that's not politics. It just happens that many of the states that didn't get crushed initially were R states. Imagine a world where we cheered for our brothers and sisters in Florida, AZ, TX, and SoCal. Edited July 10, 2020 by shoshin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 20 minutes ago, shoshin said: Could be lots of things. But splitting it by party is meant to sew division. 3 months ago, you had the likes of John in Jax saying FL was in great shape and look at the Dem state mess. And if you count total deaths, the D-leaning states are WAY WAY WAY behind the more R states. It's just a dumb way to look at things. We are one country. The virus isn't playing politics. People are. If you split it by states that saw spikes in march vs not, the difference is more dramatic and meaningful, and that's not politics. It just happens that many of the states that didn't get crushed initially were R states. Imagine a world where we cheered for our brothers and sisters in Florida, AZ, TX, and SoCal. While I applaud your underlying philosophy and agree wholeheartedly that the virus isn't political, people are (and that ultimately, that graph is divisive in effect if not intent)......... ........I'm really struggling to cheer for Florida Man, Arizona Woman, and the "Bar Lives Matter" folks. Yesterday I discovered that in response to mask requirements, totally useless mesh and crocheted masks are selling out on Etsy. I wanted to puke. Then I wanted to burn something. I'm sure there are many sincere and sensible people in those states, I'm just being transparent about where my head's at right now. I haven't hugged my 88 year old mother since March 14th. I can count the number of times I've seen her, to mime hugs at each other or exchange a few words through a partly-open screened window on my fingers. And we're tremendously lucky - she's mentally competent, does not need daily care, has not needed much in the way of physician visits, and is learning to use the iphone we bought her to see pictures we send and to text us/read texts. We had hopes, back in May, that we could start to do things with her in June - reasonably safe things, like all wear masks and push her in a wheelchair outside around the Botanical Gardens or have tea on a patio sitting 6 feet apart. Elders who are suffering from some form of mental/memory deficit are suffering horridly. From their POV their families abandoned them, at the same time their living facility started confining them to their room and canceled all the social events/activities for reasons that are unclear to them or worse, "fake news" "fake virus" "not hazardous to 99% of the people who catch it". They are lonely, they are isolated, they are miserable. These are NOT people who are lying around waiting to die, which seems to be a common view of people in nursing homes held by those who don't know any - they are people who had tea and played games with their families every weekend, went on outings with family regularly, had lunch every day with their spouse and friends. The infection control procedures in many of their facilities still suck, and their employee testing plan is often wholly inadequate. Elders in these facilities where cases are soaring are going to be getting sick. Then the hospitalizations will soar and the deaths will follow. 1 hour ago, driddles said: Or the graph can be used for education. What is happening in those states that leads to higher numbers? I got to agree with shoshin on this. If you want to understand what is going on in states that leads to higher numbers, you look at what is going on in states that have soaring numbers. You don't bin Democratic CA in with NY, and you don't bin Republican-led NH and MA in with TX, AZ, and FL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottaRun Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 51 minutes ago, shoshin said: Imagine a world where we cheered for our brothers and sisters in Florida, AZ, TX, and SoCal. I agree, and It's funny that you say that. As a Canadian, when someone asks me about visiting another province, I have nothing but good things to say. I love this country from East to West. When I overhear another Canadian being asked the same question they usually answer in the same way, positive reviews. However, after hundreds of trips across the border, and visiting 30 states I'll say the following about Americans. Best hosts in the world, every state Friendliest people, every state Generous to a fault But when we tell people what state we are visiting next we get the rundown of everything that is wrong with that state. Every time. I'll never get it *** I think we're about to see updates that Florida had a very bad day Edited July 10, 2020 by driddles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 The very nature of pandemics is political. That said, the single most important factor in not sewing division during a pandemic is leadership that stresses the importance of banding together and the need to make the necessary sacrifices to bring it under control. We don’t have that kind of unifying leadership. Not even close. Indeed, we have leadership that seeks to foster the opposite. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottaRun Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) Florida adds 11,433 cases and another 93 deaths Half of Florida's ICUs are now at least 90% full All hospitals full in Houston I get my info from the Reddit CoronaVirus sub an excellent place for quick, condensed updates Edited July 10, 2020 by driddles 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 (edited) Does anyone know total number of US deaths at this same point last year? The total number for this year were easy to find but last year are tougher to find. How much higher is the death toll at this point than it was last year? Edited July 11, 2020 by LB3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, LB3 said: Does anyone know total number of deaths at this same point last year? The total number for this year were easy to find but last year are tougher to find. How much higher is the death toll at this point than it was last year? Yes, people do die every year. Hard to argue that. That’s as far as I can go here. What’s your point? Covid deaths are a drop in the bucket? Is your mom a drop in the bucket. How about Granny in the nursing home? Do you suggest eliminating seat belts? I hope I misunderstood this, in which case I apologize. It sounds like “cancer doesn’t kill everybody, it’s not that big of a deal.” . Edited July 11, 2020 by Augie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 8 hours ago, driddles said: I agree, and It's funny that you say that. As a Canadian, when someone asks me about visiting another province, I have nothing but good things to say. I love this country from East to West. When I overhear another Canadian being asked the same question they usually answer in the same way, positive reviews. However, after hundreds of trips across the border, and visiting 30 states I'll say the following about Americans. Best hosts in the world, every state Friendliest people, every state Generous to a fault But when we tell people what state we are visiting next we get the rundown of everything that is wrong with that state. Every time. I'll never get it *** I think we're about to see updates that Florida had a very bad day Quebec on line #1, please pick up... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 11, 2020 Author Share Posted July 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Augie said: Yes, people do die every year. Hard to argue that. That’s as far as I can go here. What’s your point? Covid deaths are a drop in the bucket? Is your mom a drop in the bucket. How about Granny in the nursing home? Do you suggest eliminating seat belts? I hope I misunderstood this, in which case I apologize. It sounds like “cancer doesn’t kill everybody, it’s not that big of a deal.”. I could be wrong, but I think he’s asking a reasonable question, and one that I can’t figure out from the CDC data. Every year, there’s a seasonal mortality. This year, there’s been a huge spike over that, some diagnosed as covid, in many places a good spike that is NOT so diagnosed but probably mostly is - I put some data up in a post estimating IFR on the facts thread. I think he’s asking by how much this year’s mortality exceeds last years. It’s a good question and one overall in the US I’m having trouble finding an answer to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 11, 2020 Author Share Posted July 11, 2020 1 hour ago, LB3 said: Does anyone know total number of US deaths at this same point last year? The total number for this year were easy to find but last year are tougher to find. How much higher is the death toll at this point than it was last year? This may not quite be what you’re looking for, but this study (March 1through April 21) compared this year to an average of 6 previous years. They concluded there were 87,000 excess deaths this year, of which 56,000 were attributed to covid-19. What usually happens with an epidemic disease is that initially deaths that aren’t identified as such (eg someone who was pretty healthy died unexpectedly and without testing, they had diabetes so that winds up on the cause of death but.....). So just in that two month stretch, the death toll from COVID-19 could be about 25,000 deaths higher. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottaRun Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 11 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said: Quebec on line #1, please pick up... Old Quebec city is a must see for anyone in North America. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 11, 2020 Author Share Posted July 11, 2020 This post on the facts only thread by @shoshin has the best video I’ve seen about why masks work https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/223756-covid-19-facts-and-information-only-thread/page/17/ Putting it here in case anyone has follow-up questions 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 35 minutes ago, driddles said: Old Quebec city is a must see for anyone in North America. Few times been there, skiing nearby Mont-Sainte-Anne. Stayed in Old City. One time Chateau Frontenac. I guess it's the closest to Europe in N.America. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottaRun Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 LDS asks church members to wear masks Israel announces antibody that neutralizes virus 30 year old dies after attending Coronavirus party Mutation in Arizona Coronavirus may make it more infectious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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