Covid-19 discussion and humor thread [Was: CDC says don't touch your face to avoid Covid19...Vets to the rescue!

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

 

 

Everlasting shame and perfidy on those horribly selfish people walking out of doors without the government's permission!

[Jrb1979]

1 hour ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Everlasting shame and perfidy on those horribly selfish people walking out of doors without the government's permission!

Its not that you can't go outside and walk. You are supposed to be 6 ft apart from people. 

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Psycho-Chicken?  Why on earth was a National Mall flyover  sure to draw crowds scheduled during a stay-at-home order?  Why not just have a parade, 1918 Philly style?

 

It's almost as though someone wants to have things both ways - to be able to point at actual National guidelines and say "hey, listening to the experts!" while simultaneously appealing to those who consider them unwarranted. ?

 

From your link:
"Despite orders from local leaders to not gather in large groups during the pandemic, hundreds of folks gathered on the National Mall this morning to witness a flyover by the U.S. Navy Blue Angels and Air Force Thunderbirds saluting essential workers on the frontlines of the COVID-19 pandemic. "

 

You think maybe if they'd asked the doctors and nurses on the frontlines they would have said "Stay the **** at home and make our lives better with fewer seriously ill covid-19 patients to treat"?

Are you really asking “why?” The answer is obvious. 
 

Anyway, we can’t save people from themselves. It’s amazing how callous people can be when this virus hasn’t touched anyone they know. Almost like tiny toddlers who think you disappear when they close their eyes. 

[BillsFan4]

Yeah, screw those experts. What do they know. No need for masks or social distancing, amirite?  

 

Screw the healthcare workers too. So what if they have to put themselves in harms way to take care of those people if they get sick. So what that some of them have even had to isolate from their families for weeks at a time so as not to expose them to covid19.

 

Obviously the most important thing during a pandemic is that people are able to take a walk on crowded streets while ignoring all safety guidelines... oh and get haircuts, manicures and tattoos. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Jrb1979 said:

Its not that you can't go outside and walk. You are supposed to be 6 ft apart from people. 

 

And cover your nose and mouth, ideally wear a mask.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Everlasting shame and perfidy on those horribly selfish people walking out of doors without the government's permission!

 

Hi Joe, you asked about why Sweden has no lockdown but fewer covid-19 deaths and cases than Michigan.  I think you were being sarcastic, but this looks like a good place to address some of the factors why this may be true in relation to the above comment.

 

1) Citizens respecting and following restrictions.  While Sweden has no formal lockdown, it's not the case that there are no restrictions.  I think this article does a good job of explaining.  Sweden depends upon its citizens to show social responsibility and follow social distancing guidelines, without a formal lockdown.  "Citizens take individual responsibility for social distancing, and the government keeps most of society functioning. There are some rules—high schools and universities are closed, gatherings of more than 50 people are banned, and people over 70 and those who feel ill are encouraged to stay home. But businesses largely remain open, and children who would otherwise need care are in school."  Nevertheless, because of the social distancing recommendations, life in Sweden is very different.  Anyone who can is encouraged to work from home.  International travel was advised against on March 14th.  On March 19th, the government "advised against" unnecessary travel within Sweden.  Nursing homes have been closed to visitors on a nationwide basis since at least April 1.  Bars and restaurants are open but must space tables apart and keep patrons at least arm's length apart. " Citymapper statistics indicate an almost 75% drop in mobility in Stockholm. Travel over the Easter weekend dropped more than 90%; the government did not tell ski resorts to close for Easter, a popular ski holiday time, but the resorts closed anyway."
 

Fundamentally, while the Swedish government is not ordering "stay at home", they are expecting citizens to behave responsibly to help contain the disease, and most apparently are, including business owners.

 

I suspect most Swedes would, in fact, view a photo of large groups of people crossing the street in close proximity and say something like "look at those horribly selfish people walking too close out of doors in contrast to what acting for the social good requires of us at this time"

2) Testing.  Sweden had eyes while we (in the US) were blind.  They started testing for covid-19 in January.  They started testing anyone with pneumonia of unknown cause, regardless of travel abroad, on March 4th.  Around the same time, they started testing flu surveillance samples for covid-19. 

 

It's not quite true that in the US to get a covid-19 test in early March, you had to have flown to Wuhan and licked a pneumonia patient, but for various reasons discussed upthread, testing in the US lagged far behind.  As of mid-March, in most of the US including Michigan, we were still only testing people with a history of foreign travel.  We were not testing flu surveillance samples or conducting random population screens to look at prevalence as Sweden was

 

3) Timely vs Delayed response.  Sweden advised against internal travel and recommended that people work from home (and people listened) 19 March, when they had 1,439 tested cases of Covid-19 (out of ~10,404 tests).

 

Michigan locked down on 24th March with already 6,441 tested cases of covid-19 (out of 12,237 tests).  The high percentage of positive tests means that there were almost certainly many many more cases than were actually tested at that time - probably more like 60,000 actual cases.

 

The hard news about epidemic disease containment is that the more cases before it takes place, the more rigorous it has to be to be effective.    Given that at the point travel restrictions were imposed (excuse me, in Sweden, recommended), Michigan had at least 4.5x more cases, it's actually not too bad that they're running 400 deaths/million people vs Sweden 263 deaths/million people.

 

4) National coordination and planning of response - Sweden has been able to effectively use the military to re-deploy and re-purpose essential equipment and build extra hospital capacity quickly

 

5) National healthcare: Sweden does not have the large numbers of people with undiagnosed or neglected health conditions such as high blood pressure as are found in the US where many working people can not afford medical insurance or medical care.

 

Sweden is facing criticism and skepticism, but they turned their covid-19 response over to an epidemiologist who seems a real "steely-eyed missile man".  He correctly deduced that the key to the whole thing was to prevent the health care system from being overwhelmed: build up capacity quickly, and ask people to stay home and mitigate the spread.  It seems for the most part, people listened, and he may have pulled it off.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

[Wacka]

Haven't been reading this  thread but anyone who doesn't take this seriously is  a total idiot. Know someone ib Ca that is 51  and was in good health. She got sick on March 3  and didn't get tested for a few weeks because testing wasn't as wide spread then.  Her doctor  treated her with the medicines but she said she is finally feeling pretty good now. Didn't have two be admitted, but she said there was a day where she really had problems breathing,  She finally got tested because   her Son in Law  was going on active duty and had to have a test and all his relatives too, She did have CovID.  She said thai ws the sickest she ever was.

[Figster]

3 hours ago, Wacka said:

Haven't been reading this  thread but anyone who doesn't take this seriously is  a total idiot. Know someone ib Ca that is 51  and was in good health. She got sick on March 3  and didn't get tested for a few weeks because testing wasn't as wide spread then.  Her doctor  treated her with the medicines but she said she is finally feeling pretty good now. Didn't have two be admitted, but she said there was a day where she really had problems breathing,  She finally got tested because   her Son in Law  was going on active duty and had to have a test and all his relatives too, She did have CovID.  She said thai ws the sickest she ever was.

I think its very important that people who have symptoms of Covid 19, or think they may have had it in the past, get tested ASAP.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Figster

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, Figster said:

I think its very important that people who have symptoms of Covid 19, or think they may have had it in the past, get tested ASAP.

 

Just a note here that the appropriate test differs:

 

1) if you currently have symptoms, or have had symptoms within the last week, the test for active disease might be appropriate.  That is the RT-PCR test run on a nasal swab (the brain-poker).   It might still be reactive more than a week past symptoms, but the test is more likely to give a false negative as the amount of virus in your system declines.

 

2) if you have had relevant symptoms starting at least 3 weeks ago, the blood test for antibodies might be more appropriate.  This is usually done with a finger- prick but sometimes a tube of blood is drawn.  (A recent study of 14 different antibody tests showed that the best response from most tests occurred 3 weeks from symptoms).  It can take a good two weeks from the start of symptoms for an IgG antibody response to rev up and get going.  Some tests check for IgM antibodies as well, which can be present ~1 week after symptoms.

 

Of course, questions about health, symptoms, which test to get  -> doctor.

 

[BillsFan4]

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 4/30/2020 at 4:52 PM, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...so then it IS possible Hap to get it a second time?......or is it more reasonable to think she was possibly released too early and returned to the nursing home population?.....I would think with all of her longstanding health ailments that her immune system would not be up to the fight for "round 2", which is why I said I was getting info second hand....

 

I wanted to link in and put this here.  It's the best description I've seen of what a number of doctors have said about covid-19 being a two-phase illness.   Most people improve after 5-7 days, but a significant number enter a second phase, which may become more serious.  This may have happened to your cousin (illness-recovery-discharge-second, more serious phase).

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/30/well/live/coronavirus-days-5-through-10.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab
But tracking symptoms and paying special attention as the illness nears its second week has taken on new urgency as more doctors are seeing patients arriving at the hospital with an insidious form of pneumonia. On scans, patients with Covid pneumonia have a finding called “ground-glass opacities,” a hazy appearance in the lower part of both lungs. Oxygen levels may drop so slowly that the patient doesn’t even notice, a condition called silent hypoxia. Often it is not until oxygen saturation reaches dangerously low levels, causing severe shortness of breath, that they finally seek care.

The best way to monitor your health during this time is to use a pulse oximeter, a small device that clips on your finger and measures your blood oxygen levels. (There are phone-based apps meant to do this, but they have tested poorly) The normal oxygen saturation range is about 96 to 99 percent. If your blood oxygen reading drops to 92 percent, it’s time to call a doctor.

While at home, you can also increase the flow of oxygen to your lungs by not resting on your back. Resting on your stomach, in the prone position, can open parts of the lungs that are compressed when lying on your back. You can also change to resting on your left side or right side, or sit upright in a chair.
(....)

Dr. Chang cautioned that patients should listen to their bodies and not be too strict about following a timeline of symptoms. “The human body does not follow the perfect manual,” she said.

The problem, say doctors, is that the public health guidance so far has been to tell patients to ride out the illness at home and seek medical care or return only if they experience severe shortness of breath. As a result, too many patients are waiting too long to contact a doctor.

“From a public health perspective, we’ve been wrong to tell people to come back only if they have severe shortness of breath,” said Dr. Richard Levitan, a well-known emergency room doctor from New Hampshire who has called for widespread use of home pulse oximeters during the first two weeks of Covid-19 illness. “Toughing it out is not a great strategy.”

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I wanted to link in and put this here.  It's the best description I've seen of what a number of doctors have said about covid-19 being a two-phase illness.   Most people improve after 5-7 days, but a significant number enter a second phase, which may become more serious.  This may have happened to your cousin (illness-recovery-discharge-second, more serious phase).

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/30/well/live/coronavirus-days-5-through-10.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab
But tracking symptoms and paying special attention as the illness nears its second week has taken on new urgency as more doctors are seeing patients arriving at the hospital with an insidious form of pneumonia. On scans, patients with Covid pneumonia have a finding called “ground-glass opacities,” a hazy appearance in the lower part of both lungs. Oxygen levels may drop so slowly that the patient doesn’t even notice, a condition called silent hypoxia. Often it is not until oxygen saturation reaches dangerously low levels, causing severe shortness of breath, that they finally seek care.

The best way to monitor your health during this time is to use a pulse oximeter, a small device that clips on your finger and measures your blood oxygen levels. (There are phone-based apps meant to do this, but they have tested poorly) The normal oxygen saturation range is about 96 to 99 percent. If your blood oxygen reading drops to 92 percent, it’s time to call a doctor.

While at home, you can also increase the flow of oxygen to your lungs by not resting on your back. Resting on your stomach, in the prone position, can open parts of the lungs that are compressed when lying on your back. You can also change to resting on your left side or right side, or sit upright in a chair.
(....)

Dr. Chang cautioned that patients should listen to their bodies and not be too strict about following a timeline of symptoms. “The human body does not follow the perfect manual,” she said.

The problem, say doctors, is that the public health guidance so far has been to tell patients to ride out the illness at home and seek medical care or return only if they experience severe shortness of breath. As a result, too many patients are waiting too long to contact a doctor.

“From a public health perspective, we’ve been wrong to tell people to come back only if they have severe shortness of breath,” said Dr. Richard Levitan, a well-known emergency room doctor from New Hampshire who has called for widespread use of home pulse oximeters during the first two weeks of Covid-19 illness. “Toughing it out is not a great strategy.”

 

 

...much appreciated...

[Punching Bag]

40 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

The best way to monitor your health during this time is to use a pulse oximeter, a small device that clips on your finger and measures your blood oxygen levels. (There are phone-based apps meant to do this, but they have tested poorly) The normal oxygen saturation range is about 96 to 99 percent. If your blood oxygen reading drops to 92 percent, it’s time to call a doctor.

 

Takuo Aoyagi, an Inventor of the Pulse Oximeter, Dies at 84

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/science/takuo-aoyagi-an-inventor-of-the-pulse-oximeter-dies-at-84.html

Quote

Takuo Aoyagi, a Japanese engineer whose pioneering work in the 1970s led to the modern pulse oximeter, a lifesaving device that clips on a finger and shows the level of oxygen in the blood and that has become a critical tool in the fight against the novel coronavirus, died on April 18 in Tokyo. He was 84

 

[Augie]

In the absence of leadership, we have to count on common sense. 

 

 

Good luck.........I’m staying close to home, but not going to let it freak me out. Be smart, be calm and keep adapting. 

 

Our Blue Angel flyover (all over the city and surrounding areas, for those unaware)  coming 48 hours after our stay at home order ended was a strange event. It’s safe to go outside, so now we create events to draw hundreds of people into the best viewing points all of a sudden?  

[LeGOATski]

3 hours ago, Augie said:

In the absence of leadership, we have to count on common sense. 

 

 

Good luck.........I’m staying close to home, but not going to let it freak me out. Be smart, be calm and keep adapting. 

 

Our Blue Angel flyover (all over the city and surrounding areas, for those unaware)  coming 48 hours after our stay at home order ended was a strange event. It’s safe to go outside, so now we create events to draw hundreds of people into the best viewing points all of a sudden?  

That does seem really dumb. The Thunderbirds/Blue Angels did this in major cities across the country, though (Operation America Strong or something). I doubt they coordinated it with the Georgia governor. 

 

We watched from our front yard.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Augie said:

In the absence of leadership, we have to count on common sense. 

 

 

Good luck.........I’m staying close to home, but not going to let it freak me out. Be smart, be calm and keep adapting. 

 

Our Blue Angel flyover (all over the city and surrounding areas, for those unaware)  coming 48 hours after our stay at home order ended was a strange event. It’s safe to go outside, so now we create events to draw hundreds of people into the best viewing points all of a sudden?  

 

The whole concept of the flyovers to "honor our frontline workers" (eg nurses aides doctors and EMTs) was so weird. 

 

I'm pretty sure if you asked them how they wanted to be honored they'd have said "stay home, we don't want to see you here"

 

[Augie]

14 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

That does seem really dumb. The Thunderbirds/Blue Angels did this in major cities across the country, though (Operation America Strong or something). I doubt they coordinated it with the Georgia governor. 

 

We watched from our front yard.

 

Knowing the exact flight path now, we would have seen NOTHING. We went to a great spot, and we mostly saw people gathering in a large group in a small area. I had no idea it would be so big. We left somewhat early. It was a nice walk to get there, but the crowd kept growing. 

 

I don’t think anyone anywhere had a better view, and it was pretty meh....  As I mentioned elsewhere, a guy I play tennis with at the park is a retired Navy Admiral. On July 3rd he said “here they come!” What? He had a pilot buddy he convinced to do their July 4th “walk thru” with the other planes over the park where we play. THAT was worth walking miles to see!  It was a private showing. Hard to be too impressed after THAT!  They were low, and fast, and they just kept coming back over us! 

 

 

.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Augie

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

...also tends to carry ticks and rabies, but Hey, why mess with a good meme?

[Figster]

23 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just a note here that the appropriate test differs:

 

1) if you currently have symptoms, or have had symptoms within the last week, the test for active disease might be appropriate.  That is the RT-PCR test run on a nasal swab (the brain-poker).   It might still be reactive more than a week past symptoms, but the test is more likely to give a false negative as the amount of virus in your system declines.

 

2) if you have had relevant symptoms starting at least 3 weeks ago, the blood test for antibodies might be more appropriate.  This is usually done with a finger- prick but sometimes a tube of blood is drawn.  (A recent study of 14 different antibody tests showed that the best response from most tests occurred 3 weeks from symptoms).  It can take a good two weeks from the start of symptoms for an IgG antibody response to rev up and get going.  Some tests check for IgM antibodies as well, which can be present ~1 week after symptoms.

 

Of course, questions about health, symptoms, which test to get  -> doctor.

 

The antibody test could work as a fail safe for the false negatives on the nose swabs. ( IMO )

 

For identifying and community tracking/ tracing purposes do you think we may get to a point where both types of test are given at the same time? (PCR and blood)

 

Thanks again for becoming our TBD resident guru on Covid 19

 

Much appreciated...

Edited May 4, 2020 by Figster