Jordan Palmer on Josh Allen

[Buffalo Barbarian]

When you get to say Championships and actually mean it ? 

 

 

[Shaw66]

7 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

We'll have to agree to disagree, but a tangible measure of his improvement in this area WILL be YPA. If you're consistently throwing guys open and hitting targets, it will reflect in the YPA.

 

Josh made tremendous strides in year 2, but the YPA still isn't where it needs to be (at all).

 

Let's just hope they acquire the right offensive personnel so we can assess the QB play with a more comprehensive picture.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.   There is no reliable data about how well or how poorly Allen throws people open.   So we don't have any idea how well Allen is doing in this "category" as compared to the other qbs in the league.   You don't talk about YAC, but it's the same problem.  If you're completing the ball 10 yards downfield and the receiver gets tackled immediately, there's no YAC.   If you complete the ball at the line of scrimmage to a back and he runs for 10 yards, you get 10 YAC but the YPA is identical.    Yes, you always want to improve at throwing people open and at YAC, but just because you want to improve doesn't mean it will have a dramatic impact on your stats.  

 

On the other hand, consider this:  In 2019, Josh Allenwas 271 for 461, 58.8% completion percentage, which made him 26th in the league in Yards per Attempt.   If he could improve his completion percentage to 66% - that would make him 10th in the league, look at what happens:   On the same number of attempts, he'd have 32 more completions, and on the same yards per catch, he'd have 360 more yards.   His yards per attempt would go up to 7.5, or 13th in the league.   His completion percentage is much more important than these things you're talking about.   Now, will throwing guys open increase Allen's completion percentage?   Sure.   So will better presnap reads, better postsnap reads, better decision making, better communication with the receivers, better footwork, better receivers, better play calling and better pass protection.   

 

YAC and throwing people open sound nice, but they are only a small, maybe even tiny part of what's necessary for Allen to have the kind of success we want to see.   It's not some kind of magic elixir that's going to turn Allen into a star.   

 

Football in Sean McDermott's world is about getting all of the little things right as close to all the time as possible.  Throwing guys open, for Allen, is just one little thing.  

[BeastMaster]

On 2/28/2020 at 11:38 PM, Shaw66 said:

As I said, I think it's overstated. Neither YAC nor throwing open is anything close to be the most important things about successful qbs.  Throwing people open isn't even a stat, it's just a subjective observation about qbs.  

 

Completion percentage, yards per attempt, and td-int ratio tell us much more about a qb.  

 

People want nuts a few years ago about Tyrod Taylor not throwing over the middle.  It was silly how much people harped on it.  The reality was if Taylor threw over middle at league average, he would have something like one more completion per game.  

 

Do I think Allen could be better throwing receivers open?  Yes.  I just don't think it's close to the most important thing to get better at. 

 

YAC?  As someone pointed out, you get YAC throwing to backs and hitting deep balls to receivers.  Most fans don't want him throwing more to backs.  Yes I'd like Allen to complete more deep balls.  

People went nuts because it was a MAJOR weakness in his game that was hurting his overall ability to play the position at a high level. Also a reason why he'll be riding the pine everywhere except for us where that buffoon Rex Ryan thought he was smarter than everyone else. 

 

Allen's issue isn't at the level that it prevents him from playing at a high level, but it's an area of weakness that would result in his overall game becoming stronger should he improve at it.

 

With Allen I expect and believe in him improving every year. All signs/indications point towards that, so to me I'm really not concerned. 

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, BeastMaster said:

People went nuts because it was a MAJOR weakness in his game that was hurting his overall ability to play the position at a high level. Also a reason why he'll be riding the pine everywhere except for us where that buffoon Rex Ryan thought he was smarter than everyone else. 

 

Allen's issue isn't at the level that it prevents him from playing at a high level, but it's an area of weakness that would result in his overall game becoming stronger should he improve at it.

 

With Allen I expect and believe in him improving every year. All signs/indications point towards that, so to me I'm really not concerned. 

There have been many very good points made in this thread, and thanks to you guys for your posts, one could learn a thing or two reading them. Imo, cleaning up the dropped passes (not expecting perfect) will go a long way to improving  pass completions percentage, YPA, and TD pass percentage, this one thing would make a large difference in outcomes. Yes easier said than done, but it is a major key to success. If nothing else changed and the drops were cleaned up we would score more points and win more games, this of course is linked to many other “small things” being done better, but I think you all get my drift on this. Our guys gotta catch the ball first, ?

 

Go Bills!!!

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

There have been many very good points made in this thread, and thanks to you guys for your posts, one could learn a thing or two reading them. Imo, cleaning up the dropped passes (not expecting perfect) will go a long way to improving  pass completions percentage, YPA, and TD pass percentage, this one thing would make a large difference in outcomes. Yes easier said than done, but it is a major key to success. If nothing else changed and the drops were cleaned up we would score more points and win more games, this of course is linked to many other “small things” being done better, but I think you all get my drift on this. Our guys gotta catch the ball first, ?

 

Go Bills!!!

Thaks to you and BeastMaster.   I agree, it's a lot of small points.   

 

No one is saying Allen doesn't have things to improve on.   He has plenty, as do most young QBs.   It's just that there isn't a silver bullet.   It's overall growth and improvement that's necessary, and not just with Allen.   It's a team thing.  One reason Brady has been as great as he has is become he has been surrounded by teammates who do their jobs.  

[Don Otreply]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Thaks to you and BeastMaster.   I agree, it's a lot of small points.   

 

No one is saying Allen doesn't have things to improve on.   He has plenty, as do most young QBs.   It's just that there isn't a silver bullet.   It's overall growth and improvement that's necessary, and not just with Allen.   It's a team thing.  One reason Brady has been as great as he has is become he has been surrounded by teammates who do their jobs.  

All very true, it is always getting the little thing right that makes the difference. I see the team being on the cusp of  potentially becoming dominant.  This off seasons acquisitions and preparation are the lynchpins as it were. For me the season starts with free agency and the draft,  my anxiety levels are still in check, but... This upcoming season will be exciting to watch unfold. ?

 

Go Bills!!!

[LABILLBACKER]

I appreciate what Jordan does for Josh. And I believe him when he says this match is perfect for Buffalo. He is a project that will require extra time. But his work ethic and improvement trajectory has already started. Was Jordan a great qb?....No, but he could very well prove to be a huge confidence tool for JA.

[LB48]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Thaks to you and BeastMaster.   I agree, it's a lot of small points.   

 

No one is saying Allen doesn't have things to improve on.   He has plenty, as do most young QBs.   It's just that there isn't a silver bullet.   It's overall growth and improvement that's necessary, and not just with Allen.   It's a team thing.  One reason Brady has been as great as he has is become he has been surrounded by teammates who do their jobs.  

When I see a guy with 16+ games under his belt in the NFL make REALLY STUPID, PANIC decisions in a PLAY-OFF game then I have to question his overall ability to be a success.  Forget footwork, accuracy etc.  When you panic under a rush, turn and run 15 yards in reverse  taking a sack to take the team out of FG position that's dumb!  When you throw a desperation lateral for no reason in the final seconds of a game to no one that's PANIC dumb.

 

Get over your love affair with Josh.  He's not the guy!  In your day Lamonica was a much better all around QB who didn't need a personal QB coach!  I think your slipping and joining in with the other soft Millennial fans that like numbers more than the game itself.

[Reed83HOF]

 

[BillsFan4]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/03/26/sam-darnold-josh-allen-and-kyle-allen-riding-out-quarantine-together/

Josh Allen, Sam Darnold, Kyle Allen riding our the quarantine together. 

 

 

[The Jokeman]

On 2/27/2020 at 10:56 PM, LB48 said:

I Must Comment on the entire Jordan Palmer SCAM!  He's created a BRAND NAME for himself with nothing to back it up!

He played three years in the NFL and never started a game.  He completed 11 passes for 66 total yards, no TD's and 2 interceptions.

IF you THINK his $61 million dollar NET WORTH at age 35 came from his playing career you are very naive!

 

He's built up a wonderful 'guru' camp that appeals to young QB's that helps them with their self-confidence.  Footwork and accuracy are normally a natural reaction and not able to be taught.  When the pressure comes you revert to your natural instincts.

 

 

 

Those who can't teach. 

[RochesterLifer]

58 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Those who can't teach. 

Illustrating the importance of a comma.

[Bangarang]

On 2/29/2020 at 12:57 AM, Tesla03 said:

Allen's deep ball accuracy is due to so many different things 

 

First of all, we have no true #1 elite WR. Our oline is also terrible against any form of blitzes. for deep balls to work you need time in the pocket, Allen barely got that last season. I can't remember how many times the oline just collapsed towards the end of games. 

Not having an elite #1 WR is such a horrible excuse. How many truly elite WRs are there in the league? Plenty of guys manage to connect on deep balls without one.

 

You’re trying too hard to blame everyone but Allen. He missed plenty of throws from a clean pocket to open receivers. 

[njbuff]

13 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Not having an elite #1 WR is such a horrible excuse. How many truly elite WRs are there in the league? Plenty of guys manage to connect on deep balls without one.

 

You’re trying too hard to blame everyone but Allen. He missed plenty of throws from a clean pocket to open receivers. 

 

There are a few exceptions, but every great QB has always had a #1 elite WR.

 

Montana and Young are top 10 QB's of all time and they had Jerry Rice.

 

Unitas had Berry.

 

Peyton had Harrison.

 

Brees has Thomas.

 

I can go on, but you get my point.

 

Also, we all know that Allen needs to improve the deep ball (duh), but he did start to connect on those late in the year and if Brown and Williams do their jobs in the playoff game, we are looking at Allen in a different light instead of complaining about his deep ball and his hideous bone head play on the final drive of regulation.

[Augie]

12 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Not having an elite #1 WR is such a horrible excuse. How many truly elite WRs are there in the league? Plenty of guys manage to connect on deep balls without one.

 

You’re trying too hard to blame everyone but Allen. He missed plenty of throws from a clean pocket to open receivers. 

 

As do all QB’s at times,  but I must say those deep balls he overthrew by 5-8 yards make you wonder. They were often terrible, but possibly a result of trying to avoid an INT. It was often into double coverage, which makes you wonder about the decision.

 

I love the guy, and I’ll hope it’s true that he’s focusing on his deep ball this off-season. He’s got the arm, and he shows the touch at times. I’m all in, he’s our guy for the next few years. Hard not to love the person. 

[Bangarang]

2 hours ago, njbuff said:

 

There are a few exceptions, but every great QB has always had a #1 elite WR.

 

Montana and Young are top 10 QB's of all time and they had Jerry Rice.

 

Unitas had Berry.

 

Peyton had Harrison.

 

Brees has Thomas.

 

I can go on, but you get my point.

 

So until Allen gets an elite WR we shouldn’t expect him to complete deep passes at a respectable rate? I thought he was better connecting deep as a rookie with worse receivers than he was last year.

 

Quote

 

Also, we all know that Allen needs to improve the deep ball (duh), but he did start to connect on those late in the year and if Brown and Williams do their jobs in the playoff game, we are looking at Allen in a different light instead of complaining about his deep ball and his hideous bone head play on the final drive of regulation.

I’d like for everyone to do their job well, including Allen. I’ll look at Allen in a different light when he’s consistently good. Until then, I’ll just keep riding this emotional rollercoaster.

2 hours ago, Augie said:

 

As do all QB’s at times,  but I must say those deep balls he overthrew by 5-8 yards make you wonder. They were often terrible, but possibly a result of trying to avoid an INT. It was often into double coverage, which makes you wonder about the decision.

 

I love the guy, and I’ll hope it’s true that he’s focusing on his deep ball this off-season. He’s got the arm, and he shows the touch at times. I’m all in, he’s our guy for the next few years. Hard not to love the person. 

I can buy into him not wanting to risk an INT as a reason for all the bad overthrows. McD loves to preach ball security. But damn, hitting on those deep balls can be game changers. I’m sure we missed out on several TDs as a result of the missed deep balls.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Bangarang

[BeastMaster]

4 hours ago, Bangarang said:

 

So until Allen gets an elite WR we shouldn’t expect him to complete deep passes at a respectable rate? I thought he was better connecting deep as a rookie with worse receivers than he was last year.

 

I’d like for everyone to do their job well, including Allen. I’ll look at Allen in a different light when he’s consistently good. Until then, I’ll just keep riding this emotional rollercoaster.

I can buy into him not wanting to risk an INT as a reason for all the bad overthrows. McD loves to preach ball security. But damn, hitting on those deep balls can be game changers. I’m sure we missed out on several TDs as a result of the missed deep balls.

Deep balls are the one pass that I'm ok with Josh leaving up enough for both the WR and the DB to make a play on it. It's basically a punt if the DB gets it, but it's huge if our guy comes up with it.

 

If Allen was throwing the deep ball with the intention of defenders not having a chance to make a play on it, then I think that's the wrong way to look at it. 

 

Give your guy a chance. If the defender is somehow able to make a play on it, oh well.

[The Jokeman]

8 hours ago, RochesterLifer said:

Illustrating the importance of a comma.

Ha! Valid.

[Thurman#1]

On 2/29/2020 at 1:38 PM, Shaw66 said:

As I said, I think it's overstated. Neither YAC nor throwing open is anything close to be the most important things about successful qbs.  Throwing people open isn't even a stat, it's just a subjective observation about qbs.  

 

Completion percentage, yards per attempt, and td-int ratio tell us much more about a qb.  

 

People want nuts a few years ago about Tyrod Taylor not throwing over the middle.  It was silly how much people harped on it.  The reality was if Taylor threw over middle at league average, he would have something like one more completion per game.  

 

Do I think Allen could be better throwing receivers open?  Yes.  I just don't think it's close to the most important thing to get better at. 

 

YAC?  As someone pointed out, you get YAC throwing to backs and hitting deep balls to receivers.  Most fans don't want him throwing more to backs.  Yes I'd like Allen to complete more deep balls.  

 

 

No, you're right, "neither YAC nor throwing open is anything close to be the most important things about successful qbs." But is it an extremely helpful thing that can make a QB and a reciever more dangerous? Well, yeah, it is.

 

And this is a very old point your bring up, but to review, nobody said Tyrod didn't throw over the middle, or nobody with a clue anyway. He threw over the short middle a lot. It was the deep and intermediate middle he didn't throw to, and yes that absolutely was important. You imply that throwing over the deep and intermediate middle would only have added the stats of an extra pass or two a game. And that's not why Tyrod's not being able to throw there was important.

 

It was important for the same reason that Flutie became much more defensible when he became unable to throw the deep outs anymore with age. A deep out or two a game wouldn't have made a significant difference in production. But defenses saw Flutie wasn't throwing there and that allowed them to not cover that area, which let them far better cover the areas he really was throwing to. Same with Tyrod. Teams knew they didn't have to defend the deep and intermediate middle and so they were better able to cover the areas Tyrod was actually throwing to.

 

The most important thing Allen could get better at? No, you're certainly right about that. But improving accuracy enough to hit guys on the run really would make a huge difference for him. My feeling is that he'll never be a wildly accurate QB. Accurate enough to play as well as the similarly inconsistently accurate Cam Newton did when he was playing at his best? Yeah, that seems a very reasonable ask, and would probably be enough to make Allen a successful QB and the Bills very dangerous.

 

Agreed on the deep balls. He was quite a lot better at them his first year, so I think he's got a good shot at being a better deep ball thrower. I was particularly encouraged to see that he and Jordan Palmer were working on that this offseason already, and that Palmer had given Josh a different mindset on the deep balls. "Plant a flag with it and let the receiver run to it," or maybe "Put a pin in the map and let him run to it" ... something like that. Which means precisely that Palmer and Allen are working hard to have Allen throw guys open and advantaged rather than throwing to where they're running.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Thurman#1

[BillsFan17]

On 2/28/2020 at 11:38 PM, Shaw66 said:

As I said, I think it's overstated. Neither YAC nor throwing open is anything close to be the most important things about successful qbs.  Throwing people open isn't even a stat, it's just a subjective observation about qbs.  

 

Completion percentage, yards per attempt, and td-int ratio tell us much more about a qb.  

 

People want nuts a few years ago about Tyrod Taylor not throwing over the middle.  It was silly how much people harped on it.  The reality was if Taylor threw over middle at league average, he would have something like one more completion per game.  

 

Do I think Allen could be better throwing receivers open?  Yes.  I just don't think it's close to the most important thing to get better at. 

 

YAC?  As someone pointed out, you get YAC throwing to backs and hitting deep balls to receivers.  Most fans don't want him throwing more to backs.  Yes I'd like Allen to complete more deep balls.  

I dont think it boils down to just the one more completion a game. It's more broad than that, its having defense play more honest. When they know your tendencies and where you are reluctant to put the ball itll change how they defend you. That's why it was infuriating watching Tyrod pigeon hole him self.

 

In turn, this will also limit your skill players if your QB cant utilize them to the best of their abilities.

 

While I do agree that throwing players open may not be the utmost priority for Allen, and it's going to be a subjective "attribute." However, the scope I look at that with, is Allen reading the defense, is he trusting his WRs, is he accurate in decision/throw, etc... because if those things are all clicking, Allen should be putting the ball in positions where the skill player has the opportunity to create after the catch.

 

Otherwise, again, we would be doing our skill players a disservice.