Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 57 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: I suspect Beane and McD are as undecided on Ford as many fans are. Ford certainly didn't look like a quality NFL starter in his rookie season and it's hard to project how much - if at all - he'll improve this year. RT is still an unsolved problem and McD and Beane are probably hoping for the best from Ford but - at the same time - preparing for the worst. I expect them to bring in competition through the draft and/or free agency. Tend to agree. Think what will be somewhat telling is what they do about Spain, if they let him walk, then likely Ford is popping inside at one of the spots and Felicinao at the other and may switch left to right there. Ford had his moments as a rookie, both good and bad. The last six weeks he went up against some pretty stiff competition and held his own. They may feel they've seen he has the ability to improve enough to be the answer or maybe not. If Spain is re-signed it allows them to somewhat hedge their bets. They could then leave Ford at RT, basically the same starting five as last season, but if he doesn't improve enough next year, you could still platoon him with Ty and then in 2021, don't resign Feliciano and then move Ford inside, but you gave hi ma two year try out. I think we'll see an improved team in 2020 talent wise, but still may be one year away from really being able to win the Super Bowl, so one more year with Ford as RT doesn't hurt the team that much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 30 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Isn’t that a good question? I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes" to both questions. Well, not that the OL is bad - but that it isn't yet Championship calibre. It could hold its own against teams without elite DL, but showed flaws against elite DL or heavy blitzing. 2.96 seconds was used in Kubiak’s article, but seems analogous to NextGen’s TT stat, which is explicitly a snap-to-throw stat. Since Allen clearly extends throwing time with his legs, I’m unclear that’s a good OL stat. Pro-football-reference (which seems to source off Nextgen) gives a Pkttime stat that is explicitly time from snap to throw or pocket collapse. The Bills are tied for worst at 2.3 sec. Unsure how it’s measured, but the point is - there's at least one metric out there which says our OL was near the bottom of the league for holding a pocket. Overall I see: 1) There were times when Allen had time, and an open read, and took too long to pull the trigger. It's pretty common for a young QB running a complex offense to take too long on his reads, and Allen was no exception. On the other hand, you don't want Checkdown Charlie back there. It's a tradeoff, but some of it is on Allen 2) There were times when the OL just lost the "Trench War" and got pushed back into Allen's lap immediately on every snap. 3) There were times when there appeared to be either a blown assignment, or a blown protection call, and pressure was immediate - but many times, I can't make the call which it was. Someone (was it you?) pointed out that the use of no-huddle may play a role in precluding a change in protections and that may have been a reason it was abandoned. Bottom line, we had unblocked blitzers unabated to the QB too durn often and whatever the reasons for that (and there's clearly more than one), it's got to stop for Allen to take a step As with everything in life, there are no absolutes. I did not point that out on the no-huddle, I vividly remember reading it, but can't recall who, I almost want to say Bandit.... I am not looking for Dallas style line, where plenty of cash is tied up into it. While I don't want what have become accustomed to in the past, it can be at a good enough point that can be added to it and tweaked, just enough to keep Allen upright and give the WRs time to get free. I think Spain at times was a little weak and we can get better RT play, I think it is closer to championship caliber than some may think, if the offense is able to help the line quicker and not take forever to get open or get the ball where it should go... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Agreed on "non-committal at end of season pressers". Beane praised his "versatility". Interesting on Conklin. He made a list of top-25 FA, with the comment that he was "back to his old form" in 2019 after tearing his ACL in 2017. Obviously, the Titans had ? or they wouldn't have declined his 5th year option. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001096883/article/top-25-nfl-free-agents-of-2020-no-shortage-of-intriguing-qbs That is my hope too (competition through both FA and the draft) but I think the level of the competition they bring in will tell us what they really think. All I recall is that is was the scheme that gave him more help since he was more or less not able to anchor his side. I didn't spend much more time other than that. I will look to see if I can dig it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said: All I recall is that is was the scheme that gave him more help since he was more or less not able to anchor his side. I didn't spend much more time other than that. I will look to see if I can dig it up I think the story was, tore his ACL during the playoffs in 2017. First year under new coaches (2018) he missed a lot of time - 3 games at the start of the season still rehabbing ACL, mid-season concussion, then another knee injury week 14 (unclear if same knee or opposite). So they didn't pick up his option next off-season. Doesn't mean your story isn't correct, though, just that I haven't seen it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 13 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: As with everything in life, there are no absolutes. I did not point that out on the no-huddle, I vividly remember reading it, but can't recall who, I almost want to say Bandit.... I am not looking for Dallas style line, where plenty of cash is tied up into it. While I don't want what have become accustomed to in the past, it can be at a good enough point that can be added to it and tweaked, just enough to keep Allen upright and give the WRs time to get free. I think Spain at times was a little weak and we can get better RT play, I think it is closer to championship caliber than some may think, if the offense is able to help the line quicker and not take forever to get open or get the ball where it should go... I looked it up. You are correct, it was @thebandit27 who pointed out the role that no-huddle may have played in blocking problems. But pro-football-reference claims we ran no-huddle on only ~10% of our offensive snaps (107 out of 1018 or something like that) My concern is run blocking. I don't think it needs a total reconstruction, but I do think it needs significant tweaks. The big unanswered question is the source of the apparent blocking SNAFUs - how much is it on Allen mis-reading the defense and calling the wrong protections? How much of it is the OL blown assignments? And how much of it is a blocking scheme which is vulnerable to the kind of stunting the Ravens pulled on us and that it seemed as though the Texans borrowed from? Bobby Johnson's rant after the Ravens game kind of made "blown assignments" seem like more of a possibility than I thought initially watching it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 I want us to get Conklin in FA, move Ford to LG, and there's your lineup. Dawkins-Ford-Morse-Feliciano-Conlkin Just realize that if we do that then Dawkins/his agent will be watching as we are going to have to re-sign him soon as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coffin Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 I got a feeling we do the Nsekhe/Ford RT experiment one more season. They made the decision to put Ford primarily at RT before the 2019 season and I'd be surprised if they gave up on it after just 1 year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: I've given McBeane a lot of credit for pivoting on some very bad decisions. That's why I say "probably". You say so. I musta missed it. In this instance: " I do think they want Ford to play RT and will probably force the issue...........Beane put all his cards on the table on day 2 of the draft with that "Bills Embedded" show where he was totally fixated on Ford as an OT.................so he'd look dumb passing on Metcalf and then moving Ford to guard. " ....the doubling down with "force the issue" "all his cards" "totally fixated" "he'd look dumb"....came across as certainty. If McDermott & Co feel the film analysis plus any improvement Ford shows coming into training camp justifies more opportunities to demonstrate he can get 'er done at RT, he'll get them...and I'd guess that will come across as "forcing the issue" to you. 5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Your perspective might be a little cloudy on those 3 instances you listed. Mmmm, don't think so. I will clarify that by <-------snip, I meant "cut ties with" not "cut vs. trade". I can see where that was ambiguous to you. Peterman was not a Beane roster acquisition, so he can't serve as an example for, or against the contention that Beane is worried about "looking dumb" by backtracking on the draft, trade, and FA choices for which he's on record enthusing and entirely responsible. There is plenty of murky water to dive into around the whole QB/WR decision making in 2017/2018, but it wasn't my intent to give that any kind of balanced examination here. All I can say about Peterman is that guy must be Catnip for Coaches in the film room or something because Gruden still has him on the Oakland roster as of this date. Go Figgur. I think Beane has shown a bit of a ruthless streak, even with players he's gone on record enthusing about, and that would include McCarron and Benjamin. You may feel he should have moved on earlier, but the point is: he did move on. Far from worrying about "looking dumb" he has come straight out and said in some instances that he made mistakes and should have done more or different. That's really my fundamental point: I think Beane has shown he'll admit a mistake and that worries about "looking dumb" won't prevent him from cutting his losses (again, don't mean literally cutting - cut or trade) once he's seen enough. That your personal threshold for plug-pulling may differ from his doesn't alter the case. 1 hour ago, Laughing Coffin said: I got a feeling we do the Nsekhe/Ford RT experiment one more season. They made the decision to put Ford primarily at RT before the 2019 season and I'd be surprised if they gave up on it after just 1 year. I will be very disappointed if we go into next season with an OL of Dawkins-Spain-Morse-Feliciano-Nsekhe/Ford. As others have said, Beane was at best ambiguous about how he saw Ford's role going forward. He praised his "versatility". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderingsquid Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 No on Ford. Mekhi Becton is the future. Move Ford to the inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Shaw66 said: I agree with this. Whether Ford will be the RT will depend on wherhw McBeane like his intelligence, work ethic and attitude. He clearly has the physical ability to play the position, and rookie linemen often struggle. Bills certainly will upgrade the oline. Who they get will determine whether Ford will move to guard. I guess I'm not clear on the "physical ability" thing. Can you say more about what you see? I hope we try to upgrade the Oline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st&ten Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 Lots of good discussion about the OL in this thread. I wonder if the Bills think that Ryan Bates can step up & compete for the RT spot in his 2nd year. He did get some playing time last year 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 7 hours ago, Codyny13 said: I’m not one to give up on a rookie after one season. I’ll ride with the coaching staff on this one. If the offensive staff has seen enough to think he can man that spot, so be it. If they think he’s better at guard, so be it. ??♂️ This is where I am at....will ride with what the coaches decide. Keep in mind that our OG depth is actually pretty good......both Spencer Long and Ryan Bates equitted themselves pretty well there AND they both play Center. It seems to me that the bills are more about aquiring talent first/figure out where they fit second.......I dont want to pass up on good offensive weapon talent this year like we did last year in the 2nd. I dont regret drafting Cody Ford.....but it is time to get this offense scoring more then 17 points a game. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, 1st&ten said: Lots of good discussion about the OL in this thread. I wonder if the Bills think that Ryan Bates can step up & compete for the RT spot in his 2nd year. He did get some playing time last year Bates will compete in camp but I don't believe they are banking on him being much more than a utility depth OL player. Of course time will tell. As to the thread subject, I expect they gave Ford stuff to accomplish in the off season and he will start off competing at RT. Where it goes from there is anyone's guess. I do expect Beane to look for a swing tackle in FA to compete with Ford and Ty. As to the draft, if a BPA OT is available when they pick in 3rd or later rounds I can see that too. I'd love Conklin but just don't see that happening. If they did it would definitely put Dawkins out next year because of positional spending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 26 minutes ago, 1st&ten said: Lots of good discussion about the OL in this thread. I wonder if the Bills think that Ryan Bates can step up & compete for the RT spot in his 2nd year. He did get some playing time last year He played 1/3 of the offensive snaps vs. Tenn and 90% in Week 17 vs the Jets....I was personally under-impressed but of course, especially in the Wk 17 game there were a lot of subs on OL. If I recall correctly, he was mostly playing LT next to Spain but of course with Long at center, Boettger at RG etc a lot of changes. Overall my take-home from that game is that McDermott should be feeling decent about the depth on defense, but that there's a huge fall-off on offense from a meh starting unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Overall my take-home from that game is that McDermott should be feeling decent about the depth on defense, but that there's a huge fall-off on offense from a meh starting unit. This true about the Oline, and it's a commentary about how bade the 2018 oline was, because 2019 was a serious improvement over 2018. in 2019 there were four new starters and a new offensive line coach. Between the draft, free agency, a second year of this unit together, there certainly ought to be improvement again in 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob in STL Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: This true about the Oline, and it's a commentary about how bade the 2018 oline was, because 2019 was a serious improvement over 2018. in 2019 there were four new starters and a new offensive line coach. Between the draft, free agency, a second year of this unit together, there certainly ought to be improvement again in 2020. Yes indeed. Just another season with the same group will make them better, but I would like to try to upgrade RT. Sign Spain and lock up RG. Sign a RT and push Ford into a battle with Feliciano for RG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 42 minutes ago, Bob in STL said: Yes indeed. Just another season with the same group will make them better, but I would like to try to upgrade RT. Sign Spain and lock up RG. Sign a RT and push Ford into a battle with Feliciano for RG. TBH, Bob, I’m not sure. Something is off with our run blocking, I think. I haven’t had the stomach to go back and try to sort what. But I’m not sure Spain is the right LG to lock up with a big contract - not saying he isn’t, just unsure. I tend to feel overall that Feliciano did a better job than Spain. And Ford has played LG, but never RG. I’m not saying an upgrade at RT isn’t the thing, I’m just not sure it’s sufficient 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: TBH, Bob, I’m not sure. Something is off with our run blocking, I think. I haven’t had the stomach to go back and try to sort what. But I’m not sure Spain is the right LG to lock up with a big contract - not saying he isn’t, just unsure. I tend to feel overall that Feliciano did a better job than Spain. And Ford has played LG, but never RG. I’m not saying an upgrade at RT isn’t the thing, I’m just not sure it’s sufficient The issue I have with moving Ford to LG is that he is an unknown quantity there at NFL level. They then need another solution at RT, ( at least to share time with Nsekhe ), there is also a question on how this may affect Dawkins play at LT when we saw how he played next to a dud in 2018.. Yes, they aren’t there yet at OL, but there is a risk that these moves may have a negative impact in 2020 when we want to be challenging for Division Title and beyond.. Im not sure this disruption is worth it to save on paying Spain $5-6 Mil a year for probably only 2 years in real time regardless of how long the contract is that he signs... Edited February 10, 2020 by Aussie Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggTX Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) Unfortunately there aren't any very good OT's available in FA and everyone wants us to go WR or Edge in round 1. Conklin is just average, but I believe our best chances of winning come from dominating in the trenches. We still could use an upgrade at G as well. I'm not saying they shouldn't draft a WR in the 1st, but we do have other needs like WLB, outside CB, slot CB, DE, TE and backup RB. Ford did play briefly at RG and I recall 1 pundit saying that he looked way better there. I don't think Nsekhe is the answer either. RT may still be an unsolved problem in 2020 unless Ford takes a very big step up -- not impossible. Edited February 10, 2020 by GreggTX 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 On 2/9/2020 at 10:52 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said: I looked it up. You are correct, it was @thebandit27 who pointed out the role that no-huddle may have played in blocking problems. But pro-football-reference claims we ran no-huddle on only ~10% of our offensive snaps (107 out of 1018 or something like that) My concern is run blocking. I don't think it needs a total reconstruction, but I do think it needs significant tweaks. The big unanswered question is the source of the apparent blocking SNAFUs - how much is it on Allen mis-reading the defense and calling the wrong protections? How much of it is the OL blown assignments? And how much of it is a blocking scheme which is vulnerable to the kind of stunting the Ravens pulled on us and that it seemed as though the Texans borrowed from? Bobby Johnson's rant after the Ravens game kind of made "blown assignments" seem like more of a possibility than I thought initially watching it. Saw this today: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard Not 1 OLman on the team rated out as a top 10 Oliver was 7th for Pass Rush win rate as DT, Phillips was not on there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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