Another Argument for Bills to Not Build a Billion $ Palace in B/Lo

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, T master said:

Hypothetically saying  !!!  And i know this is some what foolish thought but i'm just saying ...

 

Given the kind of cash the NFL generates just from the TV side of things alone in "1 TV contract" it looks as if they could build each team a new Billion $ stadium each year & at the end of the 32 team build would still have some $7 Billion dollars left over thats just one TV contract & that would be handing out 1 per year per team 32 yrs .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_on_television#Current_broadcasting_contracts

 

Which during that time period there would be more than a few more TV contracts signed that's not including what ever other income the league generates, so even if the NFL gave out half the cost to build these new palaces ($500 million) that they say are so imperative to teams being relevant in their respective regions why isn't the league (especially seeing as they are the ones that will be directly effected monetarily) made to invest that money in each teaming this way.

 

It seems as though the fans are expected to carry the huge blunt of the expense weather it's from taxes levied in their region, ticket sales, NFL memorabilia sales, TV packages, & all other things related & the league & players sits back & collects the cash !

 

Cause lets face it these exorbitant contracts that the players get come from that cash generated too I know nothing like this will ever happen but it's just a brain flush  ? !

 

 

 

 

 

 

Might want to check your math.  The entire revenue the NFL generated was just over 16 billion in 2018.

[PromoTheRobot]

Consider this...Fans from Toronto, Hamilton, and St. Catherines could conceivably take a train right to the game Downtown.

[TSNBDSC]

Why keep kicking this thing down the road and all the drama that comes with it. Build a new one and be done with it.

[Gordio]

On 2/13/2020 at 2:29 PM, apuszczalowski said:

They know the market, it's one that financially is not one that can support the current NFL. If Buffalo didn't have the Bills, would anyone seriously believe the NFL would be interested in granting them an expansion team?

 

If the market cannot support paying average NFL ticket prices, and there's no corporations willing to pay market value prices for boxes/suites, then the area can't support the NFL. It's why they tried to expand the market to play games in Toronto, if Buffalo could get support from Toronto, it could bring in some of the money from there to help out 

 

 

Well, if they really need and want both, building both together is going to be alot more affordable then doing them separate and would keep the total cost down on the project. It's easier for everyone to digest spending a $billion if they get a convention centre and stadium, instead of saying $800 million for a stadium and $500 million for a convention centre (and I am just using those numbers as examples, they will most likely be different)

 

 

That is a flawed way of thinking.  Could we compete with the likes of Dallas, NYC etc... no.  But we can compete with some of the other franchises.  Like I said someone has to be last in revenues.  You know I remember when Fitz had the Bills off to a good start & the year Edwards had the Bills off to a good start the secondary market the Bills had the highest ticket prices for home games of any team in the league for a few particular Sundays in October.  I thought to myself that is interesting.  I remember that San Diego game when the power went out at the Ralph(probably Edwards best game) I remember I was tailgating in the parking lot & I needed an extra ticket for my wife & you couldn't touch a ticket for under $200 that day.  

[PromoTheRobot]

@Buffalo716 keeps raising the poverty rate in Buffalo city (30%) as proof that Buffalo can't afford nice things. But there might be 20% in the area that can. Aren't we heading for a world like the Hunger Games where the elites have all the wealth? All you need is a few thousand who can afford such extravagance to make it work.

[Lurker]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

@Buffalo716 keeps raising the poverty rate in Buffalo city (30%) as proof that Buffalo can't afford nice things. But there might be 20% in the area that can. Aren't we heading for a world like the Hunger Games where the elites have all the wealth? All you need is a few thousand who can afford such extravagance to make it work.

 

The City of Buffalo makes up only 25% of the metropolitan area and about 10% of the regional market.    The poverty numbers are concentrated in the urban core, just as they are in Cleveland, Cincinnati, Baltimore and other Rust Belt markets.    Median household income in the surrounding non-urban markets -- which make up 90% of the region -- is 85% to 90% of the U.S. total and are even higher the closer you get to Toronto.   

 

The Bills have no problem selling tickets.    The issue is a lack of potential corporate suite buyers and how much they can raise season ticket prices, given how historically low they've been relative to other franchises... 

[PromoTheRobot]

4 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

The City of Buffalo makes up only 25% of the metropolitan area and about 10% of the regional market.    The poverty numbers are concentrated in the urban core, just as they are in Cleveland, Cincinnati, Baltimore and other Rust Belt markets.    Median household income in the surrounding non-urban markets -- which make up 90% of the region -- is 85% to 90% of the U.S. total and are even higher the closer you get to Toronto.   

 

The Bills have no problem selling tickets.    The issue is a lack of potential corporate suite buyers and how much they can raise season ticket prices, given how historically low they've been relative to other franchises... 

 

BINGO. That is the REAL economic handicap of WNY when it come to pro sports teams. The lack of large companies with an entertainment budget. But Toronto has a ton and Rochester still has a few left.  I mentioned the train idea, being able to bring Canadian fans by trainload right to the gate of a downtown stadium. I can see that as a lure.  

Edited February 18, 2020 by PromoTheRobot

[apuszczalowski]

48 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

BINGO. That is the REAL economic handicap of WNY when it come to pro sports teams. The lack of large companies with an entertainment budget. But Toronto has a ton and Rochester still has a few left.  I mentioned the train idea, being able to bring Canadian fans by trainload right to the gate of a downtown stadium. I can see that as a lure.  

A cross border train? Do you know how long the Niagara region has been fighting to get a regular train down to the area from Toronto? A few years ago they started in just the summer and recently started a regular one year round. It might take a while to get one that will take you to Buffalo from Niagara.....

 

 

4 hours ago, Gordio said:

 

 

That is a flawed way of thinking.  Could we compete with the likes of Dallas, NYC etc... no.  But we can compete with some of the other franchises.  Like I said someone has to be last in revenues.  You know I remember when Fitz had the Bills off to a good start & the year Edwards had the Bills off to a good start the secondary market the Bills had the highest ticket prices for home games of any team in the league for a few particular Sundays in October.  I thought to myself that is interesting.  I remember that San Diego game when the power went out at the Ralph(probably Edwards best game) I remember I was tailgating in the parking lot & I needed an extra ticket for my wife & you couldn't touch a ticket for under $200 that day.  

But once the can move Buffalo up to closer to average, they switch their focus to the next lowest revenue team to force them to do more, and then the next, etc. Businesses are always trying to increase their revenue and make more, they don't like doing things for nothing, and if things aren't making money, they cut them out. They won't be happy just letting Buffalo be the lowest revenue team because their fans like it and can't afford more without cutting into their tailgating money. If there's an area that can make more, they will tell the Bills to start making more or they will be out.

[Buffalo716]

5 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

@Buffalo716 keeps raising the poverty rate in Buffalo city (30%) as proof that Buffalo can't afford nice things. But there might be 20% in the area that can. Aren't we heading for a world like the Hunger Games where the elites have all the wealth? All you need is a few thousand who can afford such extravagance to make it work.

I use the poverty rate for my argument that PEGULA needs to pony up 70%

 

The people can't pay 50-60% of the stadium thats all

[Lurker]

51 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I use the poverty rate for my argument that PEGULA needs to pony up 70%

 

The people can't pay 50-60% of the stadium thats all

 

City of Buffalo residents (where the bulk of low-income households are located) would pay virtually nothing toward a new stadium--regardless of the poverty issue.    The State of New York would bear the brunt of whatever governmental contribution is required...

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

City of Buffalo residents (where the bulk of low-income households are located) would pay virtually nothing toward a new stadium--regardless of the poverty issue.    The State of New York would bear the brunt of whatever governmental contribution is required...

Taxpayers payed 80% of the refurbish 5 years ago. Including the people in the inner city

 

They can't foot anything close to that for a billion dollar stadium

Edited February 18, 2020 by Buffalo716

[Lurker]

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Taxpayers payed 80% of the refurbish 5 years ago. Including the people in the inner city

 

They can't foot anything close to that for a billion dollar stadium

 

People in the 'inner city' pay an infinitesimal amount of taxes.    You know, cause they're poor.   

 

That's how progressive taxation works...

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

People in the 'inner city' pay an infinitesimal amount of taxes.    You know, cause they're poor.   

 

That's how progressive taxation works...

All Erie county taxpayers footed 80% of the refurbish. City , suburbs etc

 

We can't foot 80% of a billion dollar stadium , Pegula is gonna have to put the majority

Edited February 19, 2020 by Buffalo716

[Lurker]

25 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

All Erie county taxpayers footed 80% of the refurbish. City , suburbs etc

 

We can't foot 80% of a billion dollar stadium , Pegula is gonna have to put the majority

 

Now you're changing your argument.   Before, it was about poverty in the City of Buffalo.     Now it's county-wide.

 

BTW, New York State paid 42% of the 2014 refurbish, while Erie County's prortion was 32%:

 

"The agreement signed by Governor Cuomo last year calls for $130 million in upgrades. The Bills are contributing significantly -- $35 million -- to the capital improvements to the Stadium. The state is contributing $54 million and the countys share is $41 million."

 

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-applauds-progress-ralph-wilson-stadium-upgrades

 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Lurker

[Buffalo716]

23 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Now you're changing your argument.   Before, it was about poverty in the City of Buffalo.     Now it's county-wide.

 

BTW, New York State paid 42% of the 2014 refurbish, while Erie County's prortion was 32%:

 

"The agreement signed by Governor Cuomo last year calls for $130 million in upgrades. The Bills are contributing significantly -- $35 million -- to the capital improvements to the Stadium. The state is contributing $54 million and the countys share is $41 million."

 

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-applauds-progress-ralph-wilson-stadium-upgrades

 

 

Yes erie taxpayers pay the county share 41million (more than pegula) and I believe we also pay  on the 54 million of the state.. I'm don't work for the state so I'm not 100% but pretty sure that how it works

http://www.dailypublic.com/articles/01272015/stadium-talk-100-million-bill taxpayers paid 100 of 130 million

 

And yes poor people in the city can't foot 6x that in taxes if it comes to a new stadium

 

I'm done with this topic

 

The tax payers shouldn't have to foot 70% of a new stadium, young , poor , green , brown , black or white but especially the poor

Edited February 19, 2020 by Buffalo716

[Lurker]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I'm done with this topic

 

That's good, since you have very little understanding of state and local tax revenue and spending streams.   

 

Erie County residents with adjusted gross incomes below $25,000 paid zero NYS income tax in 2016 (latest year available).  Those with AGI's between $25,000 and $49,999 paid just 2.7%, which translated to $966 per filer.  That was TOTAL New York State income taxes--so any portion used to fund a hypothetical stadium would be on the order of a buck or two of their tax payment.

 

OTOH, filers with AGI's of $200,000 or more paid 6.4% ($30,218 per filer).    Those lucky folks made up just 3% of Erie County filers but accounted for 38% of the income tax payments sent to Albany.     

 

Local property taxes levied by Erie County, while not as progressive as the state income tax, still put the onus on wealthier households.    The county's stadium contribution would be bonded out and paid back over many years, with large property owners funding the bulk of that nut.

 

NYS's golden goose is the well-to-do income earners in the New York City area--who would certainly pay the largest portion of any state-funded stadium project...

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, Lurker said:

 

That's good, since you have very little understanding of state and local tax revenue and spending streams.   

 

Erie County residents with adjusted gross incomes below $25,000 paid zero NYS income tax in 2016 (latest year available).  Those with AGI's between $25,000 and $49,999 paid just 2.7%, which translated to $966 per filer.  That was TOTAL New York State income taxes--so any portion used to fund a hypothetical stadium would be on the order of a buck or two of their tax payment.

 

OTOH, filers with AGI's of $200,000 or more paid 6.4% ($30,218 per filer).    Those lucky folks made up just 3% of Erie County filers but accounted for 38% of the income tax payments sent to Albany.     

 

Local property taxes levied by Erie County, while not as progressive as the state income tax, still put the onus on wealthier households.    The county's stadium contribution would be bonded out and paid back over many years, with large property owners funding the bulk of that nut.

 

NYS's golden goose is the well-to-do income earners in the New York City area--who would certainly pay the largest portion of any state-funded stadium project...

 

If WNY ponied up 50% of a 1B stadium what would that mean to taxpayers then

[Lurker]

22 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

If WNY ponied up 50% of a 1B stadium what would that mean to taxpayers then

 

A.   It won't be a $1 billion stadium.  Pegs has said as much.   More like $850-$900 million.

 

B.   Erie County won't pony up 50% (and no other WNY counties would even be involved).    They'd likely contribute maybe $50 million or so, which is pretty consistent with their past stadium investments.  Polencarz has already said the County isn't going to pay for a new stadium.    

 

C.  New York State would probably be on the hook for $300-$400 million (ballpark guess), with 70% of that coming from downstate taxpayers--who overwhelmingly fund the bulk of NYS spending.   

 

D.   The Pegula's would maybe chip in $250-$300 million and the NFL stadium fund could be tapped to pay the rest.

 

 

 

 

[beerme1]

32 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

If WNY ponied up 50% of a 1B stadium what would that mean to taxpayers then

 

 

Super Dude ? I think you need to wait and see what an agreement is actually is made up of. You know damn well it won't be 50% WNY. But then don't be shocked if Poloncarz decides that after his $150 mil contribution for a stadium project that he feels he needs to put his stamp on the area with a new $350 mil convention center. Then what? You're at half a billion and it's not cause of the Bills. I have an idea of how the funding goes and have stated it. It's nothing like what you are putting forth and yet Poloncarz seems hell bent on a convention center and that really will put us in the numbers you talk about. But that won't be the Bills fault.

I am way more inclined to see an end result more like Pegula's 60%, State 25% County 13% and city 2% but that convention center I'll tell ya, we're gonna hurt with that one. Now about all the infrastructure that will be needed....?

 

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

A.   It won't be a $1 billion stadium.  Pegs has said as much.   More like $850-$900 million.

 

B.   Erie County won't pony up 50% (and no other WNY counties would even be involved).    They'd likely contribute maybe $50 million or so, which is pretty consistent with their past stadium investments.  Polencarz has already said the County isn't going to pay for a new stadium.    

 

C.  New York State would probably be on the hook for $300-$400 million (ballpark guess), with 70% of that coming from downstate taxpayers--who overwhelmingly fund the bulk of NYS spending.   

 

D.   The Pegula's would maybe chip in $250-$300 million and the NFL stadium fund could be tapped to pay the rest.

 

 

 

 

Thanks just wondering ?

3 minutes ago, beerme1 said:

 

 

Super Dude ? I think you need to wait and see what an agreement is actually is made up of. You know damn well it won't be 50% WNY. But then don't be shocked if Poloncarz decides that after his $150 mil contribution for a stadium project that he feels he needs to put his stamp on the area with a new $350 mil convention center. Then what? You're at half a billion and it's not cause of the Bills. I have an idea of how the funding goes and have stated it. It's nothing like what you are putting forth and yet Poloncarz seems hell bent on a convention center and that really will put us in the numbers you talk about. But that won't be the Bills fault.

I am way more inclined to see an end result more like Pegula's 60%, State 25% County 13% and city 2% but that convention center I'll tell ya, we're gonna hurt with that one. Now about all the infrastructure that will be needed....?

 

For sure

 

I guess all we have to do is wait ... And it's the hardest part

 

All I know is that I just want my great grandchildren to see the Buffalo Bills

Edited February 19, 2020 by Buffalo716