meazza Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Just now, dpberr said: To a degree, the models were based on Italy's experience with the virus because it was providing the most transparent data to model. I always thought that was going to jack the numbers up significantly. Italy is a flat broke, corrupt country that invests zero dollars in anything infrastructure related, including its healthcare system. You layer on top of it it''s one of the oldest and unhealthiest countries in Europe and just so happened to also be frequented heavily by Chinese workers and tourists in the months prior to outbreak, and you could see the disaster taking shape in hindsight. People thought the United States was caught off guard - it was 100 times worse in Italy in terms of shortages of equipment and hospital infrastructure. As a whole, Italy is a flat broke country but the north is very rich and has an above average health care system so I disagree with your assesment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Just now, meazza said: As a whole, Italy is a flat broke country but the north is very rich and has an above average health care system so I disagree with your assesment. Feel free but the facts bear it out - that system broke under the strain of disinvestment. A couple bucks in the north is wholly irrelevant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: The suggestion that the tracking would be "for a limited time" only belies that you believe the government would give you back the rights it stripped from you when that's never been done in history. That is an exaggeration that is not true but it's not Covid-19 related and I'm not interested in the academic exercise of debating it. I don't mean that personally, but just make the statement to let you know I recognize it's not true. Quote Once they're gone, they're not coming back. We would have to be diligent, like the many people who have had to be diligent about every surveillance call-out. What you see as a gateway to Big Brother, I see a doorway to getting back to a functioning economy. I don't think its binary though and we will have to fight to make sure it's limited. I'd like that fight to happen in a healthy economy than to celebrate in the ashes of what once was one. Both of us may be overreacting. I for one would love for the economy to reopen, no tracking, and not have another wave like this. But it seems extremely unlikely that we have any chance to return to normal starting this summer without contact tracing, because there will be outbreaks and when they happen, we need to ensure they are contained. Edited April 9, 2020 by shoshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Just now, shoshin said: We would have to be diligent, like the many people who have had to be diligent about every surveillance call-out. What you see as a gateway to Big Brother, I see a doorway to getting back to a functioning economy. I don't think its binary though and we will have to fight to make sure it's limited. I'd like that fight to happen in a healthy economy than to celebrate in the ashes of what once was one. Both of us may be overreacting. I for one would love for the economy to reopen, no tracking, and not have another wave like this. But it seems extremely unlikely that we have any chance to return to normal starting this summer without contact tracing, because there will be outbreaks and when they happen, we need to ensure they are contained. FEAR will be your undoing. Fear makes you weak. Fear makes you fall for "just give us your rights and we PROMISE we'll give them back when this is over." Fight that fear, Shoshin. Tracking is not the answer. Tracking is voluntary enslavement to the state -- the same state which has done nothing but ***** us over for decades while they got rich. Gotta think beyond the moment 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Gal Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Missed this. If this poll is anywhere near accurate, I expect the media to work on "fixing" this tout de suite. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: The suggestion that the tracking would be "for a limited time" only belies that you believe the government would give you back the rights it stripped from you when that's never been done in history. Once they're gone, they're not coming back. Honest question, in your opinion, did the Patriot Act make you more safe, or less safe? I am continually amazed by people today and their lack of reverence for those who fought and died for their very rights and freedoms. Freedoms they nonchalantly toss aside at the whim of some governor or county exec. I guess it’s no surprise when so many have been conditioned to think that America was just created by a bunch of wealthy white guys so they could have plantations and slaves. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, meazza said: The most important metric that will be available in the future is the antibody test which will give the policy makers a better idea of how many actually have the virus. It will allow for a better idea of the spread and the actual mortality and critical illness rate. Dan Crenshaw on Joe Rogan's podcast yesterday said it best, we retreated from the battlefield by shutting down the economy to allow us to regroup and come up with a strategy. This was necessary no matter what the outcomes actually are. Yep. I have heard from countless people who believe they have had it in the past, even before it was well spread... Obviously that's anecdotal and are likely just people being people, but I do wonder sometimes if It's far more widespread than we have any clue of right now... Specifically when we think about the asymptomatic numbers. It will be interesting to see. 24 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Do you think they were? If the NHL NBA and all the schools and restaurants stayed up it would of been a nighmare 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-baby! Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: FEAR will be your undoing. Fear makes you weak. Fear makes you fall for "just give us your rights and we PROMISE we'll give them back when this is over." Fight that fear, Shoshin. Tracking is not the answer. Tracking is voluntary enslavement to the state -- the same state which has done nothing but ***** us over for decades while they got rich. Gotta think beyond the moment Nutbar alert! ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, dpberr said: To a degree, the models were based on Italy's experience with the virus because it was providing the most transparent data to model. I always thought that was going to jack the numbers up significantly. Italy is a flat broke, corrupt country that invests zero dollars in anything infrastructure related, including its healthcare system. You layer on top of it it''s one of the oldest and unhealthiest countries in Europe and just so happened to also be frequented heavily by Chinese workers and tourists in the months prior to outbreak, and you could see the disaster taking shape in hindsight. People thought the United States was caught off guard - it was 100 times worse in Italy in terms of shortages of equipment and hospital infrastructure. Yeah, Italy was the perfect storm. That's the problems with the assumptions that are naturally built into the models. Sprinkle in a little bit of Media hyperbole and It's beginning to look like the whole thing was overblown- as many of us expected to begin with. But alas, the media is doubling down, and saying the only reason we're doing decently is because of the measures taken... It seems like a hard sell. We're still a ways away from seeing how it all shapes out though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, dpberr said: To a degree, the models were based on Italy's experience with the virus because it was providing the most transparent data to model. I always thought that was going to jack the numbers up significantly. Italy is a flat broke, corrupt country that invests zero dollars in anything infrastructure related, including its healthcare system. You layer on top of it it''s one of the oldest and unhealthiest countries in Europe and just so happened to also be frequented heavily by Chinese workers and tourists in the months prior to outbreak, and you could see the disaster taking shape in hindsight. People thought the United States was caught off guard - it was 100 times worse in Italy in terms of shortages of equipment and hospital infrastructure. That may be true but a number of countries in Europe had nearly as bad if not worse numbers per capita as Italy. Spain even worse. UK, France Belgium, Switzerland and the Netherlands didn't fare too much better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterRob Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, meazza said: As a whole, Italy is a flat broke country but the north is very rich and has an above average health care system so I disagree with your assesment. By agreeing that collectively Italy is flat broke really does nothing as to say you disagree. Any country is normally the sum of its parts. What little is gained in Turin (Torino) is well diluted by the time you account for the rest of the nation. All nations have flaws but Italy really has not done anything to hang its hat on in a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 13 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said: Missed this. If this poll is anywhere near accurate, I expect the media to work on "fixing" this tout de suite. I'm surprised it's that low for Repubs and that high for Dems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Q-baby! said: Nutbar alert! ? ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-baby! Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said: ? Selfie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Just now, Q-baby! said: Selfie? PayDay, actually. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 4 hours ago, Magox said: There was no system in place for mass testing for this sort of pandemic, Fauci even makes the case after the infamous day that Trump said he didn't take responsibility. The logistics between testing centers, hospitals, medical providers, test kits, distribution, public awareness etc etc wasn't setup for this. Reasonable people can see that that there was nothing setup for such a mass level of testing. Everyone from government to the private sector are working overdrive to increase the level of testing, and to my understanding in the month of May they expect over 20 million tests to be conducted in that month alone. So you're saying they never saw the possibility of a pandemic that wouldn't need this level of testing? Nor did they have any simulations in the recent past? Sorry, this smacks of CYA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, TPS said: So you're saying they never saw the possibility of a pandemic that wouldn't need this level of testing? Nor did they have any simulations in the recent past? Sorry, this smacks of CYA... Yes, pretty much. No country was truly prepared for this in the Northern Hemisphere. Germany comes closest and even their rate of deaths and infections per capita is not all that much better than the U.S If we are going to rely on facts and data, then the U.S was one of the best major countries to have coped with the Virus on a per capita basis. You can see that right here. The deaths per Million population is the single best indicator on how a country is coping with the Virus. Also look at the TOTAL TESTS column. On a per capita basis, out of the major countries, the US is certainly faring well. And considering the U.S's size, it pushes that up further. Sorry, but those are the facts and if you believe that they should have had the system in place ready to go after how everything developed, then I just think you are being completely unreasonable about this. Edited April 9, 2020 by Magox 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 . 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 20 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: More garbage: 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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