Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Just now, GunnerBill said: I agree with most of that and I agree with your reasoning as to why they moved on Shady in favour of Gore. I thought it was the wrong decision then and still do. I'm previously on record as thinking they coulda kept both and cut someone else. It's not like we were cap-strapped or something. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Heh. I'm not sure Joe Flacco is an enticing example for folks here. Let's try Russ Wilson, and note that probable HOF-passers like Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees have both done better in years where their team has a strong rush game. I'm not sure we sucked is quite the descriptive - one could say that the problem was we didn't suck enough. We were perpetually mired in mediocrity - never bad enough to get the high draft picks and top talent, never good enough to get to the playoffs. Point taken. Other than a year here and there, I never went into a season with much hope of being good. The year of the Music City Miracle and Bledsoe's first 2 years here were the only times I had any real hope of being good in the last 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilarian Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Heh. I'm not sure Joe Flacco is an enticing example for folks here. Let's try Russ Wilson, and note that probable HOF-passers like Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees have both done better in years where their team has a strong rush game. Russell Wilson is a very unique individual. Wilson went from 3 years at NC state after he was demoted to back up to Wisconsin where he led them to a big ten conference title an appearance in the Rose Bowl and set a single-season record for passing efficiency, with the highest quarterback rating (191.8) in NCAA history. “Listen, son, you’re never going to play in the National Football League. You’re too small. There’s no chance. You’ve got no shot.” These are the words that former North Carolina State head football coach Tom O’Brien uttered on a phone call with one of his quarterbacks in the spring of 2011 https://theundefeated.com/features/the-long-and-the-short-of-is-that-russell-wilson-proved-his-college-coach-wrong/ Don't get me wrong here as i'm not advocating for the Bills RB's to carry the team as I'm fine with a balanced attack. However, I simply think its ludicrous to ask the QB to throw 35-40 times a game when you have a perfectly good RB, run game. Particularly throwing into the teeth of a defense or if you have a lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 24 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't want to get in the middle of a dispute between two of the best posters on this board Aw, c'mon in! "Plenty of room down cellar in a teacup!" 24 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: but I think what you're saying is the coaching staff has to be serious when they say they want fearless play and they have to convey that especially in the way they handle Allen. Allen can't play scared or feel as if he's being managed so that the priority on offense is don't make mistakes and let the defense win it for you. Naturally, being careless with the ball will hurt you big time, but Allen's swagger is part of what makes him a winner and you don't want to get in his head to the point where he is primarily afraid to make mistakes. I think they went through a stretch of that with Allen where they had a "Come to Jesus!" meeting with him after the NE game and told him that if he kept throwing the ball to the other team and running head-first into other human beings, he'd be playing left bench for Barkley and out of the league in 2 years if not sooner. Told him he needed to fix his stinkin' thinkin' and make it an actual priority to take care of the ball, not just give it lip service. And I think it it did get in his head, but I think to avoid developing a la Jameis Winston, they had to go there. Then after the Browns game, where Daboll tried to hang the game on his arm and he threw a career high number of passes with 0 int and one short-yardage sack and ALMOST pulled it off, they said "I think you've Got It" and gave him the "green light" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 3 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I think what they should be doing is focussing on developing their inexperienced QB into a star QB. And they don't do that running it 40 times a game. And that is what they should have done this year (i.e. 3 years into THE Process)..... This was the year to see what they have in Allen. What if he really is no good? Do we start again and give the staff another 3 years? No they worry primarily about the D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Good post, Shaw. I'm just going to hone in on one thing: Let me put bottom line up front, and say I devoutly hope you are wrong. This is NOT in fact how McDermott has operated on defense. After Horrible Harry went down with his ACL, McDermott tried to run the defense with the guys he had - Kyle Peko for example. Peko did NOT cut the mustard, and after that became clear vs. Philly, they cut him and brought in Corey Liuget on a 1 year. And it helped. Vincent Taylor was also an early-season add who didn't go through OTAs and practice squad. So much for not "bringing in a guy mid season". When it's needed to keep the defense from crapping the bed after a player is lost to injury, he does it and makes it work. Spain is a 1 year rental. So is Gore. So much for "wants guys for multiple years" There are a bunch of mid-season adds in 2017 and 2018 but I'll leave it to this season. Pretty sure there are more, just not doing the research at the moment. I know they IR'd Maurice Alexander after the Iggles game and think they added a LB to our PS or maybe the roster. The point is, McDermott has made moves to shore up the defense after injury. So why not make a move to shore up the offense after injury? I'll tell you why I think. I think it's that Daboll's offense is so complex that a player brought in mid-season who isn't already pretty familiar with a similar PE system would have a better chance of flying than of mastering it. I think it's so complex that players like Foster and Williams are struggling with its 2019 incarnation, badly. I think it's so complex that Beane felt motivated to mention "we need to find out how intelligent they are...Brian's offense is very complex" as a key factor for WR e v a l in his post season presser. And if I'm right, that's a problem, because injuries WILL happen, and places where the roster is not as good as they thought going into the season WILL happen, and we need to be able to bring in talent. There's quite the list of playoff teams this year that added a player mid-season on offense to their benefit including the Ravens, Patriots, 49ers, and Seahawks. If we aren't willing and able to do this, we are forfeiting an important competitive advantage. The practice squad isn't big enough (and it's too restrictive in terms of experience limits) to handle all contingencies. I'm loving this thread. I think you're making my point. I think what you say about complex is exactly right, and that's why guys with experience in the system play beyond the time many of us think they should. Taylor, Liuget and Peko have one big thing in common. They all play the same position, the single position on the team, offense or defense, where scheme and system are least important. Plus, they're guys brought in to take 15-20 snaps a game, more if they work out, but 15-20 is all they're really hoping for when the Bills bring them in. There's no position on the offense that can accept a part time player new to the system. Gore and Spain fit EXACTLY what Beane says. Exactly. Free agency is used to fill holes, not to build the team. Morse is the only exception, I think, since Beane has been here. He isn't looking for long-term players in free agency; he's looking for guys who can be useful on the team while they fill out the team in the draft. I'm not saying the Bills won't ever bring in additions to the offense in mid-season; I'm saying that's not what Beane wants to do. And in the case of the 2019 Bills, there were no mid-season additions necessary. No one got injured. They had the linemen they had, and there was no upgrade available mid-season. There were no receivers they were going to unseat with some mid-season free agent. No running backs - Yeldon's knowledge of the system was more valuable than any running back they could have brought in. And, by the way, I like the approach to complex offense. Complex offense is what makes your team difficult to defend. Allen is learning to lead a complex offense. Youngsters are beginning to work their way into it. They need at least one more year of young talent, probably two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: I'm loving this thread. And, by the way, I like the approach to complex offense. Complex offense is what makes your team difficult to defend. Allen is learning to lead a complex offense. Youngsters are beginning to work their way into it. They need at least one more year of young talent, probably two. Agree this is a very substantive thread . . . all because the Giants wanted Daboll for DC. I'm not sure you're right about the complex offense assertion. It might be true and seems logically plausible. And the game changes, but what I'm thinking is the K-gun did not seem overly complex. Was it? Seemed to me you could run multiple plays out of the same formation, that's great, but mainly we ran a number of plays very well and when one added Kelly's creativity and the fast pace, it was tough to stop. Just seems to me that Allen would thrive in that environment and I'm not sure calculus and football really go together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 27 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: Agree this is a very substantive thread . . . all because the Giants wanted Daboll for DC. I'm not sure you're right about the complex offense assertion. It might be true and seems logically plausible. And the game changes, but what I'm thinking is the K-gun did not seem overly complex. Was it? Seemed to me you could run multiple plays out of the same formation, that's great, but mainly we ran a number of plays very well and when one added Kelly's creativity and the fast pace, it was tough to stop. Just seems to me that Allen would thrive in that environment and I'm not sure calculus and football really go together. I think the point of a complex offense, and I think this is something McDermott really believes in, is that with a complex offense you can adjust your style of play to attack any defense. A lot has been said about the Ravens game, and about how the Ravens zero blitz approach was known and the Bills weren't prepared for it. I don't know if they weren't prepared or they were prepared by couldn't execute. In any case, the point of a complex offense is that it fill your tool box with all the tools you need, regardless of what the defense is giving you. In addition, it makes it difficult for the defense to prepare for you, because they're forced to prepare for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 My issue with all this is that the Bills by drafting Allen should have been all in & worked hard to see what they had in him this year. Too often we heard & saw game manager & you expect more from the "franchise" qb. As others said & those who believe in the Process, we are a year further in & they should have a better idea what they have in JA. I look at bad games like the Pats (wk 4) or Philly & then saw a lot of games where one could say Allen was good or blame the OC. We saw games where the Bills were good for maybe 2-3 quarters. The only really good games were Miami X 2 & Dallas. I look at Baltimore 14 & NE Week 16 & 100% hope it was Daboll & bad play calling that stunted Allen. My point is simple as per this thread. If the Giants (or Cleveland) think Daboll so good, then that means he's gotten everything he can out of Allen and was able to with a "sub-par" QB generate the 24th ranked Offense in the NFL. I hope however I am right & in-spite of a lousy OC, Allen was able to generate the 24th ranked offense!!!!!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 11 hours ago, GunnerBill said: The Broncos have a prolific offensive head coach? No. Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 I took a break from the board these past couple of weeks. This turned into a pretty good thread with some interesting points. Bottom line IMO seems to go like this. Beane and McDermott are going with Daboll in the 2020 season. They BOTH know that the O lacked in many areas but have taken on some of the blame. Beane will make every effort to get better talent (which is definitely needed) for the Offense. McDermott will get even more involved in the offensive side of the ball. Anyone thinking he is "ignorant" of what a good offense looks like is foolish IMO. Josh Allen's development will still be huge in the coming season. My speculation on Daboll is that this coming season will be a "make of break" year for him as the Bills OC. Like many others have stated, I believe Daboll's weakest skill is in game play calling adjustments. If he can become better at that this next year he will succeed. If he doesn't he probably won't be here in 2021. I'm looking forward to see what moves are made this spring. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: I took a break from the board these past couple of weeks. This turned into a pretty good thread with some interesting points. Bottom line IMO seems to go like this. Beane and McDermott are going with Daboll in the 2020 season. They BOTH know that the O lacked in many areas but have taken on some of the blame. Beane will make every effort to get better talent (which is definitely needed) for the Offense. McDermott will get even more involved in the offensive side of the ball. Anyone thinking he is "ignorant" of what a good offense looks like is foolish IMO. Josh Allen's development will still be huge in the coming season. My speculation on Daboll is that this coming season will be a "make of break" year for him as the Bills OC. Like many others have stated, I believe Daboll's weakest skill is in game play calling adjustments. If he can become better at that this next year he will succeed. If he doesn't he probably won't be here in 2021. I'm looking forward to see what moves are made this spring. ...it has to be CB......he got a pass in 20128 because "it's the personnel stupid"......so McBeane upgrades the offense and yes, there were nine new starters (Allen & Dawkins returned), but Daboll was inconsistent as hell.....things would start working and clicking followed by abandoning what was working.....Daboll or McDermott turtle ball?...who knows.....resume' shows two one year stops as OC followed by two years in Cleveland with HC Mangini.....why one year if the guy shows something?...regime change victim?......plenty of unanswered questions that feed into Bflo's 2019 inconsistencies......so yes, 2020 IS "make it or break it" as you precisely stated..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Shaw66 said: I think the point of a complex offense, and I think this is something McDermott really believes in, is that with a complex offense you can adjust your style of play to attack any defense. A lot has been said about the Ravens game, and about how the Ravens zero blitz approach was known and the Bills weren't prepared for it. I don't know if they weren't prepared or they were prepared by couldn't execute. In any case, the point of a complex offense is that it fill your tool box with all the tools you need, regardless of what the defense is giving you. In addition, it makes it difficult for the defense to prepare for you, because they're forced to prepare for everything. Agree that a complex offense makes it harder on the opposing defense to defend due to the amount of options that the offense has in its attack arsenal. But, you have to be able to execute the complex offense, which was part of the problem this year. I suspect it was too complex for Josh and nine other guys who were new to the team and system. Daboll might have been more successful this year if he took a step back from what he ultimately wanted to do and and ran the offense in logical progressions, rather than what appeared to be everything at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: Agree that a complex offense makes it harder on the opposing defense to defend due to the amount of options that the offense has in its attack arsenal. But, you have to be able to execute the complex offense, which was part of the problem this year. I suspect it was too complex for Josh and nine other guys who were new to the team and system. Daboll might have been more successful this year if he took a step back from what he ultimately wanted to do and and ran the offense in logical progressions, rather than what appeared to be everything at once. I would posit that you also have to be able to do at least one thing really well, as your go-to and your fallback. The Bills' offense didn't have that kind of bedrock strength. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 19 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...it has to be CB......he got a pass in 20128 because "it's the personnel stupid"......so McBeane upgrades the offense and yes, there were nine new starters (Allen & Dawkins returned), but Daboll was inconsistent as hell.....things would start working and clicking followed by abandoning what was working.....Daboll or McDermott turtle ball?...who knows.....resume' shows two one year stops as OC followed by two years in Cleveland with HC Mangini.....why one year if the guy shows something?...regime change victim?......plenty of unanswered questions that feed into Bflo's 2019 inconsistencies......so yes, 2020 IS "make it or break it" as you precisely stated..... Yes. With the exception of the CLE Mangini stint he was cut after the head coach got fired. I'm not sure how much of the O's problems are on Daboll and how much is on other reasons. I guess Beane and McDermott feel he gets another year and I can see their reasoning. Hoping it all works out. 7 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: Agree that a complex offense makes it harder on the opposing defense to defend due to the amount of options that the offense has in its attack arsenal. But, you have to be able to execute the complex offense, which was part of the problem this year. I suspect it was too complex for Josh and nine other guys who were new to the team and system. Daboll might have been more successful this year if he took a step back from what he ultimately wanted to do and and ran the offense in logical progressions, rather than what appeared to be everything at once. I agree. The only thing we don't know is if Beane and McDermott agreed and/or told Daboll to do that for Allen's development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: Yes. With the exception of the CLE Mangini stint he was cut after the head coach got fired. I'm not sure how much of the O's problems are on Daboll and how much is on other reasons. I guess Beane and McDermott feel he gets another year and I can see their reasoning. Hoping it all works out. I agree. The only thing we don't know is if Beane and McDermott agreed and/or told Daboll to do that for Allen's development. ...saw some posts here citing Daboll's offense as "far too complex".....fact or fiction?....allow time for nine new starters to adjust?...OR.....Al Saunders type with purported 700 page play book?..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...saw some posts here citing Daboll's offense as "far too complex".....fact or fiction?....allow time for nine new starters to adjust?...OR.....Al Saunders type with purported 700 page play book?..... Plenty of evidence that Daboll is running a complex offense. My question would be is it too complex? I suspect that they feel Josh Allen can learn to play the NFL game that way. If he can and they are "fast tracking" him to do just that it may well be the proper gamble in the long run. If my speculation is true then it does involve a lot of risk. As a spectator I can see why this causes a lot of "conflicting" points of view from fans. I guess for me personally I have bought into Beane and McDermott's system enough to trust they will make the right decisions. I'm just an amateur at this stuff but it seems the complexity of the system is due to what happens inside a particular play and NOT having too many plays. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 37 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: Agree that a complex offense makes it harder on the opposing defense to defend due to the amount of options that the offense has in its attack arsenal. But, you have to be able to execute the complex offense, which was part of the problem this year. I suspect it was too complex for Josh and nine other guys who were new to the team and system. Daboll might have been more successful this year if he took a step back from what he ultimately wanted to do and and ran the offense in logical progressions, rather than what appeared to be everything at once. I suspect you're right that it was too complex for Josh at times. But McDermott addressed that last year. When asked about dumbing down the playbook for his rookie QB, he said everyone has a job to do. Each guy is asked to do what the job is. They're not going to ask players to do something less than the job. Allen was expected to execute the entire offense last season, and he was expected to do it this season. Part of the benefit of continuity of OC and QB is that the QB can grow into the complexity. And the OC can grow into technique for making the whole playbook effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 40 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: Yes. With the exception of the CLE Mangini stint he was cut after the head coach got fired. I'm not sure how much of the O's problems are on Daboll and how much is on other reasons. I guess Beane and McDermott feel he gets another year and I can see their reasoning. Hoping it all works out. I agree. The only thing we don't know is if Beane and McDermott agreed and/or told Daboll to do that for Allen's development. 7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: I suspect you're right that it was too complex for Josh at times. But McDermott addressed that last year. When asked about dumbing down the playbook for his rookie QB, he said everyone has a job to do. Each guy is asked to do what the job is. They're not going to ask players to do something less than the job. Allen was expected to execute the entire offense last season, and he was expected to do it this season. Part of the benefit of continuity of OC and QB is that the QB can grow into the complexity. And the OC can grow into technique for making the whole playbook effective. You both could be right, that McD wanted Daboll to roll out and have Josh run the full offense, in which case they had to have known scoring production would suffer. Maybe they were ok with it and it played into "the process" where Josh learns in a trial by fire manner. I guess it depends on your view of learning and growing to say if this was a good idea or not. I personally don't think so, but I'm just a fan. Next year has to be, and should be, better offensively. I am concerned about the blocking scheme, especially on passing plays; the protection broke down easily too often. That needs to be fixed, either by personnel or scheme adjustment. 39 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...saw some posts here citing Daboll's offense as "far too complex".....fact or fiction?....allow time for nine new starters to adjust?...OR.....Al Saunders type with purported 700 page play book?..... John Brown made a comment earlier this season that this is the most complex offense he has been in. I haven't heard any of the other veterans comment about it, but I would think there is at least some truth to it. The passing plays appeared to take a while to develop and/or Josh wasn't trusting or understanding what he was seeing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: You both could be right, that McD wanted Daboll to roll out and have Josh run the full offense, in which case they had to have known scoring production would suffer. Maybe they were ok with it and it played into "the process" where Josh learns in a trial by fire manner. I guess it depends on your view of learning and growing to say if this was a good idea or not. I personally don't think so, but I'm just a fan. Next year has to be, and should be, better offensively. I am concerned about the blocking scheme, especially on passing plays; the protection broke down easily too often. That needs to be fixed, either by personnel or scheme adjustment. I don't know either. I do believe it's their thought process though. Yes to the pass blocking. Everything needs to improve some and that includes JA learning to move properly in the pocket and reading the pressure better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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