NYG requested permission to interview Daboll for OC - DENIED

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 hours ago, CheshireCT said:

Absolutely. And to continue that train of thought....I’m not sure Bills fans have EVER been happy with the OC. LOL

 

I have for sure been happier than I am right now.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The issue is that I wanted to see 2019 be the season of Allen and to have a better understanding of what his potential is.  I thought way too conservative and again at half a season behind in his development.

 

The high point is a 230 yard performance against Dallas.....  Really that's the best we've seen.....

 

I wanted at least 2 eye popping games.  We didn't see it and one then wonders if we ever will under this regime and their talk.

 

One of the two QB playing for the AFC Championship tomorrow has these passing charts in his playoff games. 

 

"I want...I want....I want" .   You sound like some of the toddlers I've met in the toy aisle at Walmart, frankly.  When my kid was 2, I started giving her $2/week allowance and explaining how many weeks the toys she wanted were worth.  It worked pretty well.

The point seems to perennially escape you that Beane and McDermott's strategy in building and running the offense, and the pace of Josh Allen's development, are not being run according to your wants, nor do your wants necessarily represent what is actually a successful and winning strategy.

 

The team had its best record since 1999 and went to the playoffs for the 2nd time in 3 years while a bunch of "eye popping" 300 yd game QB stayed home.

 

I want more playoffs, and deeper into the playoffs.  Better offense is needed for that.  "Eye popping" and high passing yard games from Josh Allen are not.

 

 

[Punching Bag]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

"I want...I want....I want" .   You sound like some of the toddlers I've met in the toy aisle at Walmart, frankly.  When my kid was 2, I started giving her $2/week allowance and explaining how many weeks the toys she wanted were worth.  It worked pretty well.

 

?

[Shaw66]

22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The point seems to perennially escape you that Beane and McDermott's strategy in building and running the offense, and the pace of Josh Allen's development, are not being run according to your wants, nor do your wants necessarily represent what is actually a successful and winning strategy.

 

I agree.  Being a fan often brings with it an odd mentality.   You (not you, Hap, but the generic fan) want so desperately for your team to be good that you take it as a personal affront when it isn't good immediately, no matter where you've come from or what the strategy is that's being applied to get good.   What you see is McVeigh winning instantly in LA and you ask why the Bills can't do that?   At least that's what you ask in 2018, and in 2019 when the Rams go 9-7 and don't make the playoffs you stop talking about them and start in with the Titans.   It's hard for some to recognize that there are different personalities, different styles, different approaches and different arrays of inherited personnel that cause every situation to be different from your situation.  

 

For me, I'm okay if what I'm seeing from the team is consistent with what the coach is telling me about his approach to getting good.   In this case, we are seeing pretty much exactly what McBeane told us we'd get, and it's improving from year to year, as they said, so that makes me willing to be patient.  

 

My recollection of Jauron was that, without exactly throwing his current players under the bus, he seemed to be saying every year that he needed better players.   Well, he was in the job for three and half or four years, and you'd think that along the way he would have stumbled across some better players.   So in his case, what we were seeing on the field was consistent with what he was telling us - despite the opportunity to improve talent for several years, the play on the field didn't get better.   Rex the same thing.   In both cases, I was pretty unhappy by the time they left.   I'm not unhappy today. 

[Billsfan1972]

36 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

One of the two QB playing for the AFC Championship tomorrow has these passing charts in his playoff games. 

 

"I want...I want....I want" .   You sound like some of the toddlers I've met in the toy aisle at Walmart, frankly.  When my kid was 2, I started giving her $2/week allowance and explaining how many weeks the toys she wanted were worth.  It worked pretty well.

The point seems to perennially escape you that Beane and McDermott's strategy in building and running the offense, and the pace of Josh Allen's development, are not being run according to your wants, nor do your wants necessarily represent what is actually a successful and winning strategy.

 

The team had its best record since 1999 and went to the playoffs for the 2nd time in 3 years while a bunch of "eye popping" 300 yd game QB stayed home.

 

I want more playoffs, and deeper into the playoffs.  Better offense is needed for that.  "Eye popping" and high passing yard games from Josh Allen are not.

 

 

Oh great, the Tannehill playoff stats....  Geez didn't see that coming......

 

And yes more work, confidence & play calling during the regular season & maybe the Houston game plays out differently.  It is game time play that allows a QB to grow.  Game manager is not what I hope is Allen's ceiling.

 

More giving McD & Daboll a pass.....

[Chaos]

18 hours ago, CheshireCT said:

 

Absolutely. And to continue that train of thought....I’m not sure Bills fans have EVER been happy with the OC. LOL

Ted Marchibroda is looking down and saying hello. 

[C.Biscuit97]

Haha.  I love the buddy system in the nfl.  Even though there is overwhelming evidence my friend sucks at his job, I gotta hire him.  Garrett is a way better OC. I would trade Daboll and 1,009 beef on wecks for Garrett.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

46 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Haha.  I love the buddy system in the nfl.  Even though there is overwhelming evidence my friend sucks at his job, I gotta hire him.  Garrett is a way better OC. I would trade Daboll and 1,009 beef on wecks for Garrett.

 

Garrett may be a better OC.  Garrett may not be a better OC.   I'm not sold.

 

Garrett took over as OC on a Cowboys team that was pretty loaded with talent.   The previous season 2006, Tony Romo had taken over as starter and looked pretty good.  They had 2 1000+ yd receivers, Jason Witten at TE, two good RB in Julius Jones and Marion Barber.  They were the #4 offense and had played in a wild card game.

 

His first season, they added TO for 1300 yds and Jason Witten took a step.  They were the #2 offense.  His next 2 years, they still had the talent but fell off to #18 and #14.

 

Garrett started out as OC with more talent than Daboll has dreamed of.  The 2019 Bills are the most talent Daboll has ever  had to work with as OC and it's nowhere close.  Kellen Moore's play calling was very strange at times for a team with Zeke Elliot at RB, and at best Garrett didn't seem willing or able to address that.

 

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Oh great, the Tannehill playoff stats....  Geez didn't see that coming......

(....)

More giving McD & Daboll a pass.....

 

I thought I was giving an opportunity for you to acknowledge that successful offensive play is not the same thing as offensive play that tickles your fancy.  It is, however, not a surprise that you failed to avail yourself of this.

 

The point stands that Beane and McDermott's strategy in building and running the offense, and the pace of Josh Allen's development, are not being run according to your wants, nor do your wants necessarily represent what is actually a successful and winning strategy.  That's not an excuse, it's a fact.

 

It's also fact that the team had its best record since 1999 and went to the playoffs for the 2nd time in 3 years while a bunch of "eye popping" 300 yd game QB stayed home.

 

I'm sure there are other teams that better suit your offensive fancies - Tampa Bay comes to mind, or perhaps Dallas.

 

[Billsfan1972]

32 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Garrett may be a better OC.  Garrett may not be a better OC.   I'm not sold.

 

Garrett took over as OC on a Cowboys team that was pretty loaded with talent.   The previous season 2006, Tony Romo had taken over as starter and looked pretty good.  They had 2 1000+ yd receivers, Jason Witten at TE, two good RB in Julius Jones and Marion Barber.  They were the #4 offense and had played in a wild card game.

 

His first season, they added TO for 1300 yds and Jason Witten took a step.  They were the #2 offense.  His next 2 years, they still had the talent but fell off to #18 and #14.

 

Garrett started out as OC with more talent than Daboll has dreamed of.  The 2019 Bills are the most talent Daboll has ever  had to work with as OC and it's nowhere close.  Kellen Moore's play calling was very strange at times for a team with Zeke Elliot at RB, and at best Garrett didn't seem willing or able to address that.

 

 

I thought I was giving an opportunity for you to acknowledge that successful offensive play is not the same thing as offensive play that tickles your fancy.  It is, however, not a surprise that you failed to avail yourself of this.

 

The point stands that Beane and McDermott's strategy in building and running the offense, and the pace of Josh Allen's development, are not being run according to your wants, nor do your wants necessarily represent what is actually a successful and winning strategy.  That's not an excuse, it's a fact.

 

It's also fact that the team had its best record since 1999 and went to the playoffs for the 2nd time in 3 years while a bunch of "eye popping" 300 yd game QB stayed home.

 

I'm sure there are other teams that better suit your offensive fancies - Tampa Bay comes to mind, or perhaps Dallas.

 

Of course I got it & knew that someone would point to it as proof you don't need passing to win.

 

I thought the NE game was terrible & the fact they were successful holding on with a 1 point lead the second half was frankly luck.  Baltimore on the other hand continually self-destructed & panicked (much like Dallas vs. the Bills).

 

I could also point to KC or NO's Offense.....  Tired of people pointing to the top 5 passers in 2019 didn't make the playoffs as this year was an anomaly....  Dallas too has made the playoffs with a good offense & you forgot to mention Atlanta.

 

What amazes me is while the Bills have made the Playoffs 2 of 3 years, year 1 they backed in & this year the schedule helped, that McD's coaching record is 25-25 since he started, which matches the the 2014-16 24-24 record.

 

To me the first two years of your franchise QB, you see what you have in him.  They have not done a good in that respect.  

[C.Biscuit97]

50 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Garrett may be a better OC.  Garrett may not be a better OC.   I'm not sold.

 

Garrett took over as OC on a Cowboys team that was pretty loaded with talent.   The previous season 2006, Tony Romo had taken over as starter and looked pretty good.  They had 2 1000+ yd receivers, Jason Witten at TE, two good RB in Julius Jones and Marion Barber.  They were the #4 offense and had played in a wild card game.

 

His first season, they added TO for 1300 yds and Jason Witten took a step.  They were the #2 offense.  His next 2 years, they still had the talent but fell off to #18 and #14.

 

Garrett started out as OC with more talent than Daboll has dreamed of.  The 2019 Bills are the most talent Daboll has ever  had to work with as OC and it's nowhere close.  Kellen Moore's play calling was very strange at times for a team with Zeke Elliot at RB, and at best Garrett didn't seem willing or able to address that.

 

 

I thought I was giving an opportunity for you to acknowledge that successful offensive play is not the same thing as offensive play that tickles your fancy.  It is, however, not a surprise that you failed to avail yourself of this.

 

The point stands that Beane and McDermott's strategy in building and running the offense, and the pace of Josh Allen's development, are not being run according to your wants, nor do your wants necessarily represent what is actually a successful and winning strategy.  That's not an excuse, it's a fact.

 

It's also fact that the team had its best record since 1999 and went to the playoffs for the 2nd time in 3 years while a bunch of "eye popping" 300 yd game QB stayed home.

 

I'm sure there are other teams that better suit your offensive fancies - Tampa Bay comes to mind, or perhaps Dallas.

 

But Hap, how many more years do you need to say maybe the guy isn’t just getting the results?  Why do bad teams only hire him to be the OC? Why was Jalen Hurts “holding him back” at Bama yet becomes a Heisman finalist without him?  Dak was hardly a slam dunk pick. He was a 3rd rounder.  Shouldn’t we expect more out of a 7th overall pick than a 3rd rounder?  And who’s fault is that if he doesn’t get there?
 

I hate the buddy, nepotism in the nfl.  I’m not other field do people who suck at their jobs keep getting chance after chance.  Daboll’s highest offense ranked 22 in yards and 20 in points.  Sorry but that sucks and isn’t good enough,  I don’t question his football knowledge.  I don’t question that Allen and other plays left plays on the field?   But when is it ok to just day maybe he just isn’t good enough?

 

also, are some folks really not thinking Daboll doesn’t have a huge say in bringing in offensive players?  He is part of the reason the offense talent isnt good enough.  

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Why do bad teams only hire him to be the OC? 

 

I hate the buddy, nepotism in the nfl.

Good teams don't fire their OCs, so good teams don't hire new OCs.   

 

McDermott and Daboll had no history together whatsoever when the Bills hired him.  What buddy, nepotism are you talking about?

 

Why can't you accept the simple fact that McDermott sees what Daboll is doing and thinks that Daboll is the right guy for the job?

[C.Biscuit97]

16 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Good teams don't fire their OCs, so good teams don't hire new OCs.   

 

McDermott and Daboll had no history together whatsoever when the Bills hired him.  What buddy, nepotism are you talking about?

 

Why can't you accept the simple fact that McDermott sees what Daboll is doing and thinks that Daboll is the right guy for the job?

I pray the Bills don’t think like this.

 

1) you realize Daboll was hired from Bama right? There are plenty of places to find OCs than just the nfl or current nfl OCs.

 

2) minus the star and Trent signings, I have zero questions of McBean’s defensive decisions.  He is one of the best defensive minds in the game.  
 

but you seriously want to trust his judgement on offense? He forced Tyrod in a West Coast system.  He traded his best receiver a week before the season and replaced him with scrubs like Matthews and far Kelvin, who was fat in Carolina when they were there.  He was in love with Peterman.  They traded up to draft Zay Jones instead of staying put for JuJu or Kupp.  
 

our offenses have ranked 29, 30, and 24.  Yeah, I can’t believe fans would second guess that.  
 

you can still be a fan and have some doubts.  I have zero doubts defensively.  But yeah, I struggle to blindly trust them defensively.  If they pick another receiver besides Zay, maybe we win the playoff game and can draft a pass rusher to make our defense, which is borderline SB caliber as is, really elite. 

[reddogblitz]

22 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Just too bad they ran him into the ground because they had no faith in Yeldon and were afraid to add a different RB.    Perhaps out of concern that the offense being a lot to pick up and fear of mistakes.

 

Why could we not grab some Mike Gilislee type player from someone else's PS if we didn't have any  we could give the football ?to?  Why did we have No faith in Yeldon?  

22 hours ago, CheshireCT said:

 

Absolutely. And to continue that train of thought....I’m not sure Bills fans have EVER been happy with the OC. LOL

 

I was happy with Roman and Lynn.

[Nihilarian]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Wow, you've really gotten yourself going about this stuff.   I think you're confusing two or three different points, and I'm not sure what your actual point is. 

 

First, I've never bought the notion that QBs are "ruined" by being thrown into the fire too early.   It's absurd, in my mind, to say that Trent Edwards, JP Losman and EJ Manuel were "ruined" because they didn't get more time on the bench.   There wasn't anything anyone was going to do to make any one of those guys franchise QBs.   Troy Aikman wasn't ruined, Peyton Manning wasn't ruined, John Elway wasn't ruined by starting early.   So I don't agree with anything you say about that.

 

Second, the fact that Peterman and Anderson didn't succeed in the Daboll's complicated system doesn't prove that running the system is wrong - it proves that it takes time to learn to run the system.   It simply may be the case that any young QB is going to struggle in his system for a while, and any old mediocre QB is going to struggle in it.   

 

Now, there's a real discussion to be had about whether it would be better to layer on the levels of complexity as your QB masters one level after another.   It doesn't seem that Daboll has done that, and at least based comments I remember, McDermott doesn't believe that's the right approach.   He has said often that he has a scheme and he gives his players that scheme to run and he expects them to grow into it.   You can argue that that's the wrong approach, and I'm sure there are coaches who go about it differently, and I certainly can't prove that you're wrong, but I also don't believe it's possible to prove you're right, either.   In any case, I don't think McDermott is going to ruin Josh Allen doing it this way.    

 

And because I don't think you can ruin Josh Allen by playing him, I think it's irrelevant whether Allen was more NFL ready than Darnold or Rosen or Mayfield.  So what?  That isn't a reason to sit him.   And, by the way, if those guys were more NFL ready (and, by the way, based on his college experience, Lamar Jackson definitely was NOT NFL ready), throwing Allen into the fire seems to have worked, because after two NFL seasons Allen is the best of the top four prospects.   

 

On 1/17/2020 at 5:18 PM, Shaw66 said:

As for the best way to get Allen up the learning curve, they've been very clear that their plan was that Allen would sit the first year.   They couldn't stick with the plan, and as they've said, Allen had a rocky first year, but he seems to have survived it.   He was better in 2019, but he had his stretches where he still looked like a rookie.  

 

 

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

I think the big, fundamental, philosophical difference one can have with what it seems McDermott is doing with the offense is that he seems to be sacrificing, perhaps unnecessarily, short-term success for long-term success.   I think what critics like you really are saying is that McDermott, Daboll and Beane could have done more to make the offense more effective.   Some of that, and the real point of this discussion, is that Daboll should have but wasn't able to accomplish more.  His critics are saying he's been an OC for a long time, and if he wasn't able to do any better in 2019 with what he had, that's pretty good evidence he just isn't good enough.  That is, he's no different than the corner back who just isn't fast enough or the quarterback whose arm just isn't strong enough.  That's a judgment that McDermott and Beane have to make, and it seems they've made it for this year.   It seems that they believe that Daboll can learn to do all that he should be doing, and that it's a good investment to work with him another year.  

 

On that final point, I have to admit that you and others have raised a lot of good points suggesting Daboll just isn't up to the challenge.  A lot of it sounds right to me.   I also have a lot of respect for McDermott, his judgment, and his willingness to make hard decisions, and what McDermott is saying to us is that Daboll is a guy he can build with.   That's enough for me to decide just to be patient and go with it for another year.   

 

You actually missed one point I made in that not all QB's are the same entering the NFL from college as some are much more NFL ready as they played in big time college programs. It's those programs that initially start their development to be an NFL starting QB and without being in a big time program it's a much more difficult transition. 

 

The number of failed QB's in the NFL is almost countless over the years, from first round picks and so on. So much depends on their surrounding cast as even when they have somewhat good coaching, they still need a good O line, good run game, good receivers. A lot also depends on what scheme they ran in college and will they be able learn and properly develop in the NFL scheme they enter. Aikman, Manning and Elway all came from big time college programs.

 

Josh Allen played at Wyoming. Not exactly a big time QB grooming college was my point here. 

 

 

I never said that JP, Edwards or EJ were ruined because they didn't get more time on the bench or that they were ruined by being thrown in to the fire too early. What I did say,

14 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

We all watched as the Bills lame OC's ruined JP, ruined, Edwards, ruined EJ. Destroying a young, inexperienced QB's confidence and demoralizing him is not the way to forcing him into greatness. 

What happened with JP was being benched after 7 games his starting season, changing HC's, OC's, schemes and ultimately was being benched again for Trent Edwards. The Bills hired quality, experienced DC's but were intent on promoting inexperienced OC's from within. From Steve Fairchild and his Mike Martz deep passing scheme to a WCO with QB coach Turk Schonert promoted to OC and he lasted one season before being fired two weeks before the 2009 season. Alex Van Pelt was the Bills QB coach at that time who was then promoted to OC. Van Pelt lasted only one season too. 

 

As for EJ he had Nathaniel Hackett as his OC and he too was benched after going 2-2 because the coaches had no patience in giving him to to learn and play as others have suggested. If your are going to go with a young inexperienced QB, stick with him as benching destroys confidence. 

 

See my point about the lame OC's? The Buffalo Bills also had some pretty crummy offensive lines from the early 2000's until somewhat recently. Tough to be in a deep passing scheme with a bad O line. 

 

 

Anyway, have no problem starting Josh Allen from the very first as long as he has the talent around him to help him succeed. Clearly because the GM changed 4 of 5 offensive linemen, starting WRs and the tight ends from his first season they realized he needed more help and he got it. Now they realize they still need to make more upgrades in certain areas. 

 

My only real fault with Brian Daboll is that he puts Allen to much under the gun by asking him to carry the offense with his arm against some of the better teams. Against those teams in which they lost and he was beaten down. Daboll didn't do this against Dallas, Denver or Pittsburgh and they won those games. Daboll has other faults as I pointed out in other threads. Yes, I don't like him because I think the Bills can do better for Allen. 

 

 

Don't get me wrong here as I'm very happy the Bills found McD and he brought in Brandon Beane. And Beane might be as good or even better than the best GM this franchise has even seen in Bill Polian. Yes, they both have made some mistakes as first timers in their respective jobs and both have corrected some glaring mistakes. Perhaps both Beane and McD feel that they haven't given Daboll enough talent on offense to succeed and are giving him another season. I honestly hope they are right and this OC steps up and gets the offense into the top ten. However, I remain dubious. 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

As for EJ he had Nathaniel Hackett as his OC and he too was benched after going 2-2 because the coaches had no patience in giving him to to learn and play as others have suggested. If your are going to go with a young inexperienced QB, stick with him as benching destroys confidence. 

 

See my point about the lame OC's? The Buffalo Bills also had some pretty crummy offensive lines from the early 2000's until somewhat recently. Tough to be in a deep passing scheme with a bad O line. 

 

 

I think Hackett has to be taken separately to Fairchild and co. They have never had success anywhere in the NFL and it is fair to say they were just lame. Nate Hackett however is now on his 2nd NFL OC job since leaving the Bills and has been part of staffs that have got to AFC/NFC Title games with both. He certainly didn't make the decision to bench EJ. That was all on Marrone thinking he had to win that year to impress new owners. 

 

That isn't to say Hackett was perfect here. I think he probably wasn't quite ready to be an NFL OC when he arrived here and asking him to be OC and QB coach the first year was a really poor decision. But he is clearly a capable NFL play caller. Not one of the best around or someone destined for a HC job but a capable guy all the same. 

 

And I remain philosophically supportive of the way Daboll is developing Allen. I think it has a chance to bear fruit in the long run.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But Hap, how many more years do you need to say maybe the guy isn’t just getting the results?

 

I'm talking about Garrett.  I'm not sure, but you seem to be talking about someone else.  I'm not comparing Daboll to Garrett, except to say that based upon results with the Cowboys, if we had moved on from Daboll, Garrett was not who I personally wanted to see under a headset here as a surefire improvement.

 

Quote

I hate the buddy, nepotism in the nfl.  I’m not other field do people who suck at their jobs keep getting chance after chance.

 

I don't see where Daboll is a nepotism hire here.  What's his connection to McDermott?  But that's neither here nor there.  I am personally not a Daboll fan myself, but I will say that when looked at closely, a lot of the plays he calls come a lot closer to being successful than people think.  I think he needs improvement and he isn't getting the most that he could from the players he has, but some of the critique is off- point.

 

Quote

also, are some folks really not thinking Daboll doesn’t have a huge say in bringing in offensive players?  He is part of the reason the offense talent isnt good enough.  

 

I don't, no.  I think he gets "a" say, but I think McDermott went down the "pick the guy the assistant coach wants" rabbit hole his first year here and wasn't thrilled with the results (Zay Jones).  Daboll came to the Bills without even authority to pick his own assistant coaches, something almost every OC does - he just worked with the guys who were already here the first year, and only brought in some guys he wanted last off season.  I think he's fairly low on the totem pole.

 

In fact I think the whole Giants seeking permission to interview him may have been a Shot across the Bow, but that's another story.

 

In Beane's postseason presser, he flat out said that he and Sean had a very "transparent relationship" but that McDermott did not agree with some of the trades and personnel decisions.  If Beane is empowered to make decisions McDermott doesn't agree with, why would we think he gives Daboll a "huge say"?

 

 

[Shaw66]

15 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

On 1/17/2020 at 5:18 PM, Shaw66 said:

As for the best way to get Allen up the learning curve, they've been very clear that their plan was that Allen would sit the first year.   They couldn't stick with the plan, and as they've said, Allen had a rocky first year, but he seems to have survived it.   He was better in 2019, but he had his stretches where he still looked like a rookie.  

 

 

You actually missed one point I made in that not all QB's are the same entering the NFL from college as some are much more NFL ready as they played in big time college programs. It's those programs that initially start their development to be an NFL starting QB and without being in a big time program it's a much more difficult transition. 

 

The number of failed QB's in the NFL is almost countless over the years, from first round picks and so on. So much depends on their surrounding cast as even when they have somewhat good coaching, they still need a good O line, good run game, good receivers. A lot also depends on what scheme they ran in college and will they be able learn and properly develop in the NFL scheme they enter. Aikman, Manning and Elway all came from big time college programs.

 

Josh Allen played at Wyoming. Not exactly a big time QB grooming college was my point here. 

 

 

I never said that JP, Edwards or EJ were ruined because they didn't get more time on the bench or that they were ruined by being thrown in to the fire too early. What I did say,

What happened with JP was being benched after 7 games his starting season, changing HC's, OC's, schemes and ultimately was being benched again for Trent Edwards. The Bills hired quality, experienced DC's but were intent on promoting inexperienced OC's from within. From Steve Fairchild and his Mike Martz deep passing scheme to a WCO with QB coach Turk Schonert promoted to OC and he lasted one season before being fired two weeks before the 2009 season. Alex Van Pelt was the Bills QB coach at that time who was then promoted to OC. Van Pelt lasted only one season too. 

 

As for EJ he had Nathaniel Hackett as his OC and he too was benched after going 2-2 because the coaches had no patience in giving him to to learn and play as others have suggested. If your are going to go with a young inexperienced QB, stick with him as benching destroys confidence. 

 

See my point about the lame OC's? The Buffalo Bills also had some pretty crummy offensive lines from the early 2000's until somewhat recently. Tough to be in a deep passing scheme with a bad O line. 

 

 

Anyway, have no problem starting Josh Allen from the very first as long as he has the talent around him to help him succeed. Clearly because the GM changed 4 of 5 offensive linemen, starting WRs and the tight ends from his first season they realized he needed more help and he got it. Now they realize they still need to make more upgrades in certain areas. 

 

My only real fault with Brian Daboll is that he puts Allen to much under the gun by asking him to carry the offense with his arm against some of the better teams. Against those teams in which they lost and he was beaten down. Daboll didn't do this against Dallas, Denver or Pittsburgh and they won those games. Daboll has other faults as I pointed out in other threads. Yes, I don't like him because I think the Bills can do better for Allen. 

 

 

Don't get me wrong here as I'm very happy the Bills found McD and he brought in Brandon Beane. And Beane might be as good or even better than the best GM this franchise has even seen in Bill Polian. Yes, they both have made some mistakes as first timers in their respective jobs and both have corrected some glaring mistakes. Perhaps both Beane and McD feel that they haven't given Daboll enough talent on offense to succeed and are giving him another season. I honestly hope they are right and this OC steps up and gets the offense into the top ten. However, I remain dubious. 

 

 

 

So I gather you're a nihilistic contrarian.   I don't know exactly what that is, but I know I like it!

 

Thanks for the nice discussion.

 

I get that you're dubious.   I am too.   We keep talking about the Ravens, and after reading several of you folks here discussing it, I'm as troubled as you that Daboll didn't have better answers.    And abandoning the running game against the Texans really bothered me.   SoI'm on board with everyone else in the sense that Daboll hasn't been good enough.   But, as you say, Beane and McD seem to think that we haven't seen the best of Daboll yet.  I think they'd tell you it's a combination of talent, experience and Daboll's growth.   The talent needs to be better, the young players who have played for the past year or two have to keep growing and get deeper into Daboll's system, and Daboll needs to be better at scheming and play calling.   The way McDermott's process works is that it doesn't simply say to everyone "get better."  The process exams everyone's performance and identifies particular aspects of how they did the job that need to change.  The process identifies not only what needs to change; it also generates specific ideas about how to change.   I think McDermott expects Daboll to be materially better next year.

 

Sorry I responded to a point you didn't make.   You did say, however, that those QBs were ruined, and my point was that I don't believe that QBs are ruined.   I believe that if you have what it takes to be a franchise QB, you make it.   David Carr maybe is the one example of a potential franchise QB being ruined.   But JP,  EJ and Trent were not ruined by their offensive coordinators.   There was and is no environment in the modern NFL where they would have been a franchise guy.  

 

That tells me that I'm not as troubled as you if Daboll has been giving Josh more than he can handle.  Josh has shown no signs of being ruined, so far as I can see.   He's just getting better, he's learning.   I do think, as I've said, that there is a good chance that the Bills have sacrificed short-term success for long-term growth with their dedication to the process.   Asking Allen to handle the entire offense, rather that dialing it back, and particularly rather being more focused on the run, may be one example of that.   

 

As I've said several times, I'm happy to be patient with the process because so far it has accomplished what McBeane told us it would.   That tells me McDermott knows what he's doing, even if we're sitting out here scratching our heads wondering what's going on.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/18/2020 at 2:12 PM, Billsfan1972 said:

Of course I got it & knew that someone would point to it as proof you don't need passing to win.

 

Then you didn't get it - you took the wrong point from it entirely.  You DO need passing to win.  You need the right passes, at the critical time.

If you look at the passes Tannehill threw vs NE and vs Ravens, there's a  beautiful deep shot for a TDs.  The Ravens watched that one go by and said "maybe we should step away from this Blitz0 thing, eh?"  That opened up the game for Henry, and they won.

 

Last night, Aaron Rodgers missed some key passes that helped them lose.  He threw an INT that resulted in a TD to put SF up 27-0.  If that's a completed pass that eventually results in a TD, now it's 20-7 and they have a much better shot to get back in it.  He also missed some passes (he was harried all day and his passing was just a little "off") that would have helped them out if he hit them.

 

Rodgers also passed for 2 TD, 326 yds, and 79% completion %. 

The point I (and others I believe) would like you to take is that while you do need quality passing at the right time to win,  you don't need some arbitrary passing benchmark to win. 

 

All the stuff you keep bringing up - 300 yd games or "2 games a season where he lights it up" or whatever arbitrary bar you want Allen to leap -t hat's not about successful football, and it's not about evaluating Allen as a QB, it's about what "eye candy" YOU, Billsfan1972, want to see.

 

Quote

To me the first two years of your franchise QB, you see what you have in him.  They have not done a good in that respect.  

 

That's to you. 

What the Bills did a piss-poor job of is giving Allen a decent offense around him his first season.  The OL sucked, the WR were lousy, the TE were invisible.  In those circumstances, you can't evaluate a young QB reasonably. 

 

This year, we've done a better job of putting OL talent in front of him and giving him targets, but it's not enough.  We have a TE who drops 1 out of 5 catchable passes (and that's not mentioning the kind of balls Kittle and Kelce routinely pull in).  We have a slot guy who can be taken away by bracketing or physical play off the line, and a #1 who can also be taken away by physical man coverage. 

 

We don't need to see the Bills "open up" the offense" or "take the reigns (sic)" off Allen to see what we've got, we need to see Allen step away from the crazy pickable balls (he did most of the season, then reverted a bit vs Houston).  We need to see him hit some of the shots he's missed when he's got an open guy.  And we need to give him some guys who don't drop what's thrown to them and who can make a contested catch or drag their toes on the sideline.

 

And we need to see what Allen has before we need to make a contract decision.  Your "first two years" is Yet Another Arbitrary Bar.

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

42 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Then you didn't get it - you took the wrong point from it entirely.  You DO need passing to win.  You need the right passes, at the critical time.

If you look at the passes Tannehill threw vs NE and vs Ravens, there's a  beautiful deep shot for a TDs.  The Ravens watched that one go by and said "maybe we should step away from this Blitz0 thing, eh?"  That opened up the game for Henry, and they won.

 

Last night, Aaron Rodgers missed some key passes that helped them lose.  He threw an INT that resulted in a TD to put SF up 27-0.  If that's a completed pass that eventually results in a TD, now it's 20-7 and they have a much better shot to get back in it.  He also missed some passes (he was harried all day and his passing was just a little "off") that would have helped them out if he hit them.

 

Rodgers also passed for 2 TD, 326 yds, and 79% completion %. 

The point I (and others I believe) would like you to take is that while you do need quality passing at the right time to win,  you don't need some arbitrary passing benchmark to win. 

 

All the stuff you keep bringing up - 300 yd games or "2 games a season where he lights it up" or whatever arbitrary bar you want Allen to leap -t hat's not about successful football, and it's not about evaluating Allen as a QB, it's about what "eye candy" YOU, Billsfan1972, want to see.

 

 

That's to you. 

What the Bills did a piss-poor job of is giving Allen a decent offense around him his first season.  The OL sucked, the WR were lousy, the TE were invisible.  In those circumstances, you can't evaluate a young QB reasonably. 

 

This year, we've done a better job of putting OL talent in front of him and giving him targets, but it's not enough.  We have a TE who drops 1 out of 5 catchable passes (and that's not mentioning the kind of balls Kittle and Kelce routinely pull in).  We have a slot guy who can be taken away by bracketing or physical play off the line, and a #1 who can also be taken away by physical man coverage. 

 

We don't need to see the Bills "open up" the offense" or "take the reigns (sic)" off Allen to see what we've got, we need to see Allen step away from the crazy pickable balls (he did most of the season, then reverted a bit vs Houston).  We need to see him hit some of the shots he's missed when he's got an open guy.  And we need to give him some guys who don't drop what's thrown to them and who can make a contested catch or drag their toes on the sideline.

 

And we need to see what Allen has before we need to make a contract decision.  Your "first two years" is Yet Another Arbitrary Bar.

 

 

An arbitrary bar that every "franchise" qb has cleared.  

 

Again missing the point.  

 

The quicker the Bills know what they have on Allen, the better.  I like him, but still not sure.

[LSHMEAB]

On 1/16/2020 at 9:59 PM, Gugny said:

 

I agree a power run guy (perhaps one in his 20s) would be nice to complement Singletary.  But the lack of carries he had all year (let alone the playoff debacle) is pathetic.  It clearly shows how Daboll sees what's working, then abandons it.

What annoys me here is that it's really not THAT difficult to field a complete RB corps and a strong run game seems paramount to Mc'D's overall approach. There are guys all over the league capable of doing far more than a Frank Gore.