NYG requested permission to interview Daboll for OC - DENIED

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

See my post responding to Nihilarian.   

 

Recognize these things:   The ENTIRE offensive team was new this year, except for bringing back the left tackle and a rookie QB.   So NOTHING McDermott taught his players in year one was still in the locker room, and very little of what McD and Daboll taught their players in 2018 carried over.   2019 was a new team.  

 

Also, as I watch the NFL, it's clear to me that the teams are all so good that everyone is looking for just little things that can give them an advantage.   You get to the playoffs, and no one is blowing anyone out - except for what KC did.   Most teams are looking for little things.   That's what Daboll is doing, too.   It isn't easy, and it isn't easy when all of your players are in their first year in your system.  

 

Give it time.  They may fail, of course, but making a decision to pull the plug on Daboll after one season with these players would be a mistake.  There's real value in continuity.  

 

We all recognize that.  But it doesn't answer the question.  The O-line, revamped, is still not that good.  WR, a position McD has struggled with sicne he got here is still a major need, as is another RB (not one ending his career here).   I have no doubt that McD does EVERYTHING intensely.  But "more intensity" from him isn't going to change the Offense output.

 

Continuity is acceptable if you are starting with a coach with demonstrated success.  Daboll wasn't and isn't that guy.  He has succeeded nowhere as OC in this league.  He has succeeded in placing himself in proximity to great coaches and launching those associations into better jobs.  Given his best chance to shine in a playoff game, his late game playcalling was disastrous.

[reddogblitz]

15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

We all recognize that.  But it doesn't answer the question.  The O-line, revamped, is still not that good.  WR, a position McD has struggled with sicne he got here is still a major need, as is another RB (not one ending his career here).   I have no doubt that McD does EVERYTHING intensely.  But "more intensity" from him isn't going to change the Offense output.

 

Continuity is acceptable if you are starting with a coach with demonstrated success.  Daboll wasn't and isn't that guy.  He has succeeded nowhere as OC in this league.  He has succeeded in placing himself in proximity to great coaches and launching those associations into better jobs.  Given his best chance to shine in a playoff game, his late game playcalling was disastrous.

 

Never confuse effort with results.

[DuckyBoys]

It pains me to write this with the Houston loss still stinging. Much as Daboll drove me nuts its probably best to stick with continuity.  Giving Allen  a new system to learn would be counter productive.  Year two with the personnel intact should show some improvement.  Better talent at wr/rb/rt  should allow Daboll to call games where Allen is not asked to carry the team on his back.  Maybe in the off season the Bills learn how to run a screen game?  Maybe we have a 1000 yard rb plus Singeltary.  Maybe we dont abandon the run when up by 16  Maybe we run in OT when the clock is absolutely no factor.  Maybe we have a viable third wr in all 16 games.  Fingers crossed next season brings us better skill guys for Josh.  A wiser Daboll who doesnt outsmart himself.  A further improved Josh Allen.

[Shaw66]

46 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Actually, the Bills were a mediocre team when they hired McDermott.  9-7, 8-8, 7-9 last 3 years.

That's true, if you're talking record.   But the team was on a path to nowhere.   Nobody, including the fans who post here, were happy with the team.   There was near jubilation when Rex was run out of town.   They had Tyrod Taylor at QB.   

 

The Browns had a decent record this year, but the post I was responding to said the Browns were a bad team, so what does it say if they're looking at Daboll.  

 

T

41 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

We all recognize that.  But it doesn't answer the question.  The O-line, revamped, is still not that good.  WR, a position McD has struggled with sicne he got here is still a major need, as is another RB (not one ending his career here).   I have no doubt that McD does EVERYTHING intensely.  But "more intensity" from him isn't going to change the Offense output.

 

Continuity is acceptable if you are starting with a coach with demonstrated success.  Daboll wasn't and isn't that guy.  He has succeeded nowhere as OC in this league.  He has succeeded in placing himself in proximity to great coaches and launching those associations into better jobs.  Given his best chance to shine in a playoff game, his late game playcalling was disastrous.

One and done is not the answer.   

 

It takes more than a year to build an oline, and the Bills have spent exactly one year building it.  WR was substantially upgraded in 2019 and will be again this year.  What are you saying?  Fire McD?

 

Some people just aren't listening.  McD and Beane have done through three years exactly what they told us or signalled us that they would do.   And the team has developed a solid foundation and is building.   It's what they said they would do.   When the GM and coach are giving you exactly what they promised, I don't see any reason to think they aren't doing the job.   If you didn't want what they promised, you shouldn't have hired them.   

[BigBillsFan]

Sean doesn't know offense. The playcalling is really bad and the adjustments aren't good at all.

 

You don't hire Rick Dennison and rank 29th in offense year 1. Yet he made the playoffs with defense.

In year 2 Daboll and that was a cap year with a rookie QB so that's a scratch

Year 3 we were in the bottom 10 of all teams

 

We need to poach a former HC who is offended minded to be the assistant HC to help Sean.

[LSHMEAB]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

That's true, if you're talking record.   But the team was on a path to nowhere.   Nobody, including the fans who post here, were happy with the team.   There was near jubilation when Rex was run out of town.   They had Tyrod Taylor at QB.   

I think the Bills were actually an underachieving team, which is at least partially why fans wanted Rex GONE. They had alot of talent and weren't getting proportionate results. 

 

McDermott and Beane went a different route and got rid of guys who didn't fit what they were building, but McD inherited a "talented" football team. 

 

They've gotten to the playoffs twice in 3 seasons, so I'm not complaining. That being said, they have A LOT to prove in terms of acquiring offensive talent.

[HOUSE]

Seems very rude

[Buffalo86]

6 hours ago, Like A Mofo said:

Obviously Daboll was interested, so why not let him go?

 

Not necessarily.  It never hurts to have your employer know that you're valued by others.  

As for Daboll, I'm happy to have continuity in Allen's third season.  

[Happy Days Lois & Clark]

He needs to do better in his screen game schematics. Maybe watch some of Chan Gaily games. Devin Singletary could really be used wisely in a screen game.

[Rc2catch]

No way we can let daboll go. 
It’ll take a whole offseason to find a new whipping boy and break him in for the board next year. Have to learn a new offense and what sucks about it, what players fit and don’t. That’s too much work. 
Now our negative Nancy’s get to 100% focus on free agency and the draft and how we screw that up with no distractions (you know who you are) plus they get extra time to find new reasons why Allen can’t be successful, and Mcdermott isn’t capable of coaching the team to a Super Bowl. Ain’t no time to research a new offensive coordinator and why he sucks this offseason there’s too much work to do. 

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

That's true, if you're talking record.   But the team was on a path to nowhere.   Nobody, including the fans who post here, were happy with the team.   There was near jubilation when Rex was run out of town.   They had Tyrod Taylor at QB.   

 

The Browns had a decent record this year, but the post I was responding to said the Browns were a bad team, so what does it say if they're looking at Daboll.  

 

T

One and done is not the answer.   

 

It takes more than a year to build an oline, and the Bills have spent exactly one year building it.  WR was substantially upgraded in 2019 and will be again this year.  What are you saying?  Fire McD?

 

Some people just aren't listening.  McD and Beane have done through three years exactly what they told us or signalled us that they would do.   And the team has developed a solid foundation and is building.   It's what they said they would do.   When the GM and coach are giving you exactly what they promised, I don't see any reason to think they aren't doing the job.   If you didn't want what they promised, you shouldn't have hired them.   

 

I think you might be talking about me

 

Come on man. ?football fandom is all about opinion.  I've been reading your stuff and I see ? where you're coming from. I just disagree. No biggee. They ain't gonna do what I say anyway.

 

Yes, McDermott and Beane said they would build a perennial contender. I don't recall them saying they would keep an under performing OC for 3 years.

Edited January 17, 2020 by reddogblitz

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

We all recognize that.  But it doesn't answer the question.  The O-line, revamped, is still not that good.  WR, a position McD has struggled with sicne he got here is still a major need, as is another RB (not one ending his career here).   I have no doubt that McD does EVERYTHING intensely.  But "more intensity" from him isn't going to change the Offense output.

 

Continuity is acceptable if you are starting with a coach with demonstrated success.  Daboll wasn't and isn't that guy.  He has succeeded nowhere as OC in this league.  He has succeeded in placing himself in proximity to great coaches and launching those associations into better jobs.  Given his best chance to shine in a playoff game, his late game playcalling was disastrous.

 

I'm having trouble decoding if your beef is with the talent on offense, or with Daboll?

 

When they decided to overhaul the offense last off season, they brought in a high-priced center in Mitch Morse and selected a guy in the 2nd round (Ford) but other than that, Beane basically shopped at Kohls.  He signed Spain (UDFA), whom the Titans moved on from to upgrade to Saffold.  He pulled capable backups from the Redskins (Nsekhe, UDFA) and Oakland (Feliciano, a 2015 4th round pick).  These guys can play, and Beane got good value for the cost, and they looked like a miraculous upgrade to last year's line, but there's probably a reason that they don't measure up well against the best defenses.    The best OLs usually feature a couple former first round picks.....

 

We are currently 23rd overall in our spending on offensive line.  There's kind of a theme there: 25th in spending on RB, 15th in spending on WR, 11th in spending on TE (but the big $$ guy didn't work out). 

 

Money isn't everything, but since the OL is the engine that powers both pass and rush game, some might say that our #23 ranked offense is a case of "get what you pay for".

 

If Beane and McDermott really want to be able to evaluate Allen and help him succeed, they better shore up the OL some more and (imo) acquire a better TE and an RB.  And draft a WR.

 

 

[kbarrettb]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

To be fair the same was said here about Dick Jauron going into year 3 in Buffalo.........and he even got off to a good start and got an extension that year.

 

Bad decisions happen even when there should have been enough data to know better.

 

But at least Jauron had had one good season as a HC(in Chicago) to go with the 6 losing ones.

 

Daboll hasn't produced a good offense at any of his 4 NFL OC jobs.

 

All bad.

 

I think he's clearly a really good X's and O's guy but his play calling and the lack of rhythm and tempo in his offense is a problem.

 

Ultimately the interest in him could just be the familiarity and experience with the Patriots offensive system and in the case of Cleveland the fact that DePodesta was a big McDermott fan.

You literally have no inside knowledge or are a qualified coach. I trust McDermott who’s brought the bills to the playoffs 2 out of 3 years. But ya let’s trust some message board warrior on what the offensive coordinator is doing wrong. You don’t know how much Josh has grown under him

or his understanding etc. but go on be angry. He keeps

getting jobs. He must be awful at it right? 

12 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

And his play calling was great this year, right?  The offense scored more than enough points, right?  Some people settle for garbage, while others want more.

 

Yeah, that's a good thought.  I recall seeing posts mentioning the position coach/coordinator would ask his current team to block the requests so it doesn't reflect poorly on him for future positions.

You know so much maybe start being a coordinator and get a job. You don’t know anything behind the scenes. But hey the Bills are your favorite team

and you deserve better. Throw out that they went 10-6 and were an overtime away from winning their first playoff game in forever. If Josh didn’t have a complete brain fart the second half we would have won. But blame coordinators. You probably hated Greg Roman too right? Ya it’s everyone’s fault but the players. 

[Happy]

18 minutes ago, kbarrettb said:

You literally have no inside knowledge or are a qualified coach. I trust McDermott who’s brought the bills to the playoffs 2 out of 3 years. But ya let’s trust some message board warrior on what the offensive coordinator is doing wrong. You don’t know how much Josh has grown under him

or his understanding etc. but go on be angry. He keeps

getting jobs. He must be awful at it right? 

You know so much maybe start being a coordinator and get a job. You don’t know anything behind the scenes. But hey the Bills are your favorite team

and you deserve better. Throw out that they went 10-6 and were an overtime away from winning their first playoff game in forever. If Josh didn’t have a complete brain fart the second half we would have won. But blame coordinators. You probably hated Greg Roman too right? Ya it’s everyone’s fault but the players. 

 

Last I checked this is a Bills fan forum; we discuss the Bills here, that is what this site is about.  You may not agree with what other posters have to say, fine.  Either have a conversation or make your statement and move on.  Don't tell others how they should feel/think based off record, coaches, GM, inside knowledge or not, or anything else you can think of.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Happy Gilmore

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I think you might be talking about me

 

Come on man. ?football fandom is all about opinion.  I've been reading your stuff and I see ? where you're coming from. I just disagree. No biggee. They ain't gonna do what I say anyway.

 

Yes, McDermott and Beane said they would build a perennial contender. I don't recall them saying they would keep an under performing OC for 3 years.

Actually, I don't pay much attention to personalities, so I really wasn't talking to anyone in particular.  

 

Thanks for clearing the air.  Didn't mean to be a jerk.  

 

But I do think you're missing the point.  McBeane were clear about the fact that they saw a three to five year process.  None of us really understood what that meant, because they didn't lay it out.   But we've now seen two full years of it, and it's much clearer now.   They've said, and it's what they've done, that they'll build through the draft and plug holes along the way in free agency.   That's what they're doing.   So in free agency we get a John Brown instead of an Antonio Brown.  They're taking their time acquiring talent.  

 

Now, if we're looking at a three to five year process, that means that the team shouldn't be great yet, and it isn't.  If a team isn't great, one side of the ball is ahead of the other.  In this case, the defense is ahead of the offense.   If offense were ahead of the defense you'd say Frazier is failing.  

 

So the offense has to improve.   The scheme has to improve, the playcalling has to improve, and the talent has to improve.   We saw improvement from 2018 to 2019.   They went from 30th in yards and points to 24 and 23 respectively.   Not enough, to be sure, but it's a process and they aren't done.   They haven't yet drafted a quality wide receiver, and they've taken only one o lineman high.   

 

So if Daboll is failing by McD's coaching standards, he gets fired.   But if he's doing the job that he and Daboll agree needs to be done, and if he's making the progress that they have laid out in their evaluation process, then he stays, even though the offense hasn't yet done what everyone knows it needs to do to succeed.    

 

Put differently, Daboll isn't an underperforming OC just because the Bills don't have a top-10 offense.   McBeane could have told you in the summer of 2018 the Bills wouldn't have a top-10 offense in 2019.   They knew, because they knew they hadn't even begun acquiring (other than Allen) any of the talent they needed.  They didn't have a running back they could count on in 2019, because Shady was year to year.   They didn't have any receivers.  And they had one, count 'em, one offensive lineman.   They added two receivers - not stars but solid receivers for 2019.  They got themselves a running back.  They got two more linemen.  That was pretty good.   They aren't done.   But with the cast of characters they had, whether Daboll is underperforming isn't measured by stats you and I see.   

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, Logic said:

I wanted to add this one. Even though PFF makes Bills fans (myself included) angry sometimes, this was an enlightening read.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-how-the-buffalo-bills-built-a-winning-offense

 

We saw how the Bills’ dropback efficiency significantly jumped year-over-year, but the reason behind that isn’t what you might think. The improvement isn’t only due to Josh Allen maturing, but it's also due to the concerted effort by Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll and his staff to build an offense that enhanced Josh Allen’s real strengths instead of playing into faulty perceptions of how a strong-armed quarterback should operate.

Allen’s prototypical size and cannon-like arm make us associate him with deep passing, and the biggest concerns among draft scouts before he entered the NFL was his low collegiate completion percentage. Many, including us here at PFF, assumed the successful formula for Allen was to replicate what Sean McDermott and Brandon Beane witnessed during their time with the Carolina Panthers during Cam Newton’s 2015 MVP season: build an explosive, downfield offense that produces chunk plays.

But when we look into the characteristics of the Bills' passing scheme last season versus this season using PFF data scientist Timo Riske’s team clustering, you’ll see just how much going away from that aggressive style and towards a shorter passing game has worked for the team.

The strongest characteristic in last year’s scheme was average route depth, putting it on the same plane as the 2018 Seattle Seahawks and the aforementioned 2015 Panthers. Offensive coordinator Brian Daboll built a scheme designed to take advantage of Allen’s deep passing; the problem is that making accurate downfield throws hasn’t been Allen’s strength.

Allen struggled as a rookie in those zones, just as the passing map above shows. Allen completed only 12 of his 49 attempts (24.5%) beyond 20 yards and outside the numbers for three touchdowns and five interceptions. We thought Josh Allen would thrive throwing deep, but he just didn’t last season, and he actually has similar efficiency beyond 20 yards this year.

Where Allen did succeed was in the 0-10 yard range, completing 71 of his 99 attempts (71.7%) for two touchdowns and one interception last year. 

That misperception has been corrected this season. Allen is now in a scheme similar to the one of the Eagles or Colts. The characteristics of those schemes are short passes, five-route patterns and screen passes. The Bills’ shift in offensive philosophy is particularly surprising without any year-over-year changes to their quarterback, head coach or offensive coordinator. 

(*blue is where routes are run more frequently than league average, red less frequently)

Looking at the route heatmaps from the last two seasons side by side, you’ll see that longer routes in the middle of the field and down the sideline have gone from above league average to at or below average (blue to white or red). And in the 0-10 yard range, where Allen had his best results, red has flipped to blue, giving Allen more opportunities to make successful throws.

Allen still has a tendency to throw beyond the expected target depth based on route distribution, but this year it’s within a normal range of average depth of target (aDOT) as opposed to the outlier number last season.

Though they play in a similar scheme, Allen is stretching the field more than Carson Wentz and Jacoby Brissett. Cam Newton was successful in a system like Allen’s last year, but that proved to be more of an outlier for Newton’s career than an example to model on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

?HEAT MAPS ARE BACK!?

 

If everything worked like it was drawn up Rex/Daboll would've had a great defense/offense.

 

Bottom line is that BD has had no success as an NFL OC in 4 stops.

 

At some point the excuses don't matter and we have to accept it for what it is.............ineffective coaching.

 

I was and remain in favor of BD getting one more shot........with hopefully top 10 offensive personnel..........but mainly because I don't want to see Allen have to change systems.

 

 But if I am McDermott I am considering the possibility that play calling duties may have to be taken away in-season and have some kind of contingency plan.   

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm having trouble decoding if your beef is with the talent on offense, or with Daboll?

 

When they decided to overhaul the offense last off season, they brought in a high-priced center in Mitch Morse and selected a guy in the 2nd round (Ford) but other than that, Beane basically shopped at Kohls.  He signed Spain (UDFA), whom the Titans moved on from to upgrade to Saffold.  He pulled capable backups from the Redskins (Nsekhe, UDFA) and Oakland (Feliciano, a 2015 4th round pick).  These guys can play, and Beane got good value for the cost, and they looked like a miraculous upgrade to last year's line, but there's probably a reason that they don't measure up well against the best defenses.    The best OLs usually feature a couple former first round picks.....

 

We are currently 23rd overall in our spending on offensive line.  There's kind of a theme there: 25th in spending on RB, 15th in spending on WR, 11th in spending on TE (but the big $$ guy didn't work out). 

 

Money isn't everything, but since the OL is the engine that powers both pass and rush game, some might say that our #23 ranked offense is a case of "get what you pay for".

 

If Beane and McDermott really want to be able to evaluate Allen and help him succeed, they better shore up the OL some more and (imo) acquire a better TE and an RB.  And draft a WR.

 

 

 

I agree with 99% of this.  My only question is what is wrong with Devin Singletary?

 

He had LITERALLY 50% of the carries that Derrick Henry had (DH - 303; DS - 151).  Henry and Singletary tied for 4th in the NFL with 5.1 YPA.  That's not a running back problem; it's a coaching problem.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

I agree with 99% of this.  My only question is what is wrong with Devin Singletary?

 

He had LITERALLY 50% of the carries that Derrick Henry had (DH - 303; DS - 151).  Henry and Singletary tied for 4th in the NFL with 5.1 YPA.  That's not a running back problem; it's a coaching problem.

 

Nothing at all is wrong with Devin Singletary.  When asked about 13 carries for Singletary and 8 for Gore vs Houston, McDermott said "I know this, it isn't good to have one RB carry the ball all the time".  Now I didn't know that, but if that's what he feels, then by Jinks we need another RB who isn't geriatric to pair with Singletary.  Power run guy would be nice.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Nothing at all is wrong with Devin Singletary.  When asked about 13 carries for Singletary and 8 for Gore vs Houston, McDermott said "I know this, it isn't good to have one RB carry the ball all the time".  Now I didn't know that, but if that's what he feels, then by Jinks we need another RB who isn't geriatric to pair with Singletary.  Power run guy would be nice.

 

I agree a power run guy (perhaps one in his 20s) would be nice to complement Singletary.  But the lack of carries he had all year (let alone the playoff debacle) is pathetic.  It clearly shows how Daboll sees what's working, then abandons it.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, Gugny said:

I agree a power run guy (perhaps one in his 20s) would be nice to complement Singletary.  But the lack of carries he had all year (let alone the playoff debacle) is pathetic.  It clearly shows how Daboll sees what's working, then abandons it.

 

I'm not sure what it shows.  They don't necessarily show what's going on on the sidelines.  Maybe Singletary has been suffering lingering effects from that hamstring injury all season.  Maybe they have him on a pitch count.  Maybe he needs to come off periodically and get stretched and massaged, I don't know.

 

Maybe Allen is supposed to run Singletary more but keeps checking to pass plays. 

 

Or maybe it is Daboll having his head up his butt.  I don't know. 

 

It's a mystery we fans can not solve.