John Brown failure to toe drag

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

8 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

I see a thread like this, and I have to wonder what the real point is. Win or loss, every game has mistakes in it. Digging in to the minutia of one botched play has "agenda" written all over it.

‘Agenda’ or just OCD, nobody does self flagellation like the TBD-TSW forums.  ?

[Hebert19]

He left his feet to catch and didnt need to.  

8 hours ago, Freak-O said:

If these numbers aren't enough for a #1 receiver then how many teams have one? 

Number 1 statistically but not in ability.   Need someone who makes the tough catches to be a clear number 1.   John simply doesn't.  

 

He would be the best number 2 in the league in my opinion if we get a guy who commands the double teams. 

[GG]

46 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I am not saying he can’t do it; if he couldn’t, he wouldn’t be in the league. But that was a HARD (albeit doable) boundary catch given the ball’s velocity and his positioning, and that is simply not one of his apex skills. He is a speed guy who is now a good route runner. That is his game.

 

I'd say that he's an inconsistently good runner, as evidenced by the last play in Balt.

 

We can apply many subjective characteristics to what a #1 WR is, but the simplest one is the team's approach to the position in the offseason.  If you take a look at any offseason wish lists for the Bills, upgrading the WR position is priority #1 or # 2 on each one.  That indicates that your current #1 WR is really a true #1 .

[Maine-iac]

We don't NEED better receivers per se any more than we need a better QB.  What we need are a few less mistakes per game and we got that most of the season and then in the playoff game we had more mistakes than usual (offense and defense) and it bit us in the a#@.  We need Allen and the WR's to be a little more surgical and hopefully that is just a matter of time.  We need the OL  and RB's to get better at blocking things up and Allen at recognizing pressure pre snap.  There is no reason to think that the exact same unit we fielded this year couldn't put up more points next year just by Allen having another years experience. 

[TroutDog]

All of these threads about specific plays is kind of sad: this was a complete meltdown on all levels, including O, D and coaching. 
 

I trust they will learn from it and it won’t happen again. 

[CircleTheWagons99]

this play ruined my night, I knew they were going to lose after that .

[colin]

brown is an above average NFL starting WR, he's not awesome and he's not great.

 

he is tiny, doesn't block well, struggles to get open vs man, and doesn't have great hands.

 

he usually runs good routes, and has solid speed, and is generally a smart player, but like the man above says, he's like a top 50 wr, not a top 25

 

he dropped a couple on the money balls in the playoff game, not getting his feet in with plenty of space and no DB contact is simply inexcusable.  he's not adjusted correctly to a few long balls too this season (early in the baltimore game comes to mind).

 

he's a solid player and im happy he's a bill, but he's not as good as foster flashed late last year (of course he fell off completely).

 

if we had cooper as our 1, with brown as 2 and bease in the slot, we'd have scored 21 points in the first half, and would have cruised to a comfortable road victory, even with houston doing their best to come back.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

I see a thread like this, and I have to wonder what the real point is. Win or loss, every game has mistakes in it. Digging in to the minutia of one botched play has "agenda" written all over it.

 

Speaking just for me here, one of my sources of frustration is narrative.   Over. and Over. and Over. again, when we do get a chance to see the Bills play on TV, the announcer follows a narrative: It's Josh Allen's fault.  Bad throw that on replay can be seen to be tipped at the line.

 

In this case, the announcer went on and on and on about a poor throw, late blah blah.  What I know is that if that very same ball were thrown to Deandre Hopkins or Tyreek Hill , it's a just a catch.  A hard catch featuring the need to toe drag, but made on a very regular basis.

 

I'm tired of watching Bills WR and TE routinely drop or go out of bounds or fail to put away catches that other players around the league regularly make to the extent that they are no longer regarded as extraordinary, while announcers go on about how the ball from Allen wasn't perfectly thrown and didn't arrive with a little greeting card and a Snickers attached.

 

Maybe that's an agenda, whatever.

[HOUSE]

[Hapless Bills Fan]

45 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

All of these threads about specific plays is kind of sad: this was a complete meltdown on all levels, including O, D and coaching. 
I trust they will learn from it and it won’t happen again. 

 

All these threads about specific plays is kind of what we do here: we discuss football.

 

38 minutes ago, colin said:

brown is an above average NFL starting WR, he's not awesome and he's not great.

 

he is tiny, doesn't block well, struggles to get open vs man, and doesn't have great hands.

 

he usually runs good routes, and has solid speed, and is generally a smart player, but like the man above says, he's like a top 50 wr, not a top 25

 

he dropped a couple on the money balls in the playoff game, not getting his feet in with plenty of space and no DB contact is simply inexcusable.  he's not adjusted correctly to a few long balls too this season (early in the baltimore game comes to mind).

 

he's a solid player and im happy he's a bill, but he's not as good as foster flashed late last year (of course he fell off completely).

 

if we had cooper as our 1, with brown as 2 and bease in the slot, we'd have scored 21 points in the first half, and would have cruised to a comfortable road victory, even with houston doing their best to come back.

 

I disagree with some of this.  Brown has laid the lumber on a number of plays this year.  For his size, he's a good blocker and he has very good hands.

 

I think the early Baltimore game was a route mismatch (Josh and Brown read what his route variation should be differently - I can't find but I believe Brown said it was his fault in one postgame interview.

 

Brown >>> Flashing Foster as a WR.

 

Brown and Beasley both struggle to open against man, and Brown can not apparently make these contested catches at all.  If the ball hits him in the hands with a DB screened off behind him and reaching forward, it's not gonna be caught.

 

Other than that, the Play was fine, thank you for asking ? and I actually agree with your final sentence.

 

 

[Magox]

Yes, he should have made the catch and that is another play that if made probably changes the outcome of the game.   I think what happened is that Brown's awareness of the boundaries was lacking.  I think he thought he had a little more room than he did.  

[CincyBillsFan]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Speaking just for me here, one of my sources of frustration is narrative.   Over. and Over. and Over. again, when we do get a chance to see the Bills play on TV, the announcer follows a narrative: It's Josh Allen's fault.  Bad throw that on replay can be seen to be tipped at the line.

 

In this case, the announcer went on and on and on about a poor throw, late blah blah.  What I know is that if that very same ball were thrown to Deandre Hopkins or Tyreek Hill , it's a just a catch.  A hard catch featuring the need to toe drag, but made on a very regular basis.

 

I'm tired of watching Bills WR and TE routinely drop or go out of bounds or fail to put away catches that other players around the league regularly make to the extent that they are no longer regarded as extraordinary, while announcers go on about how the ball from Allen wasn't perfectly thrown and didn't arrive with a little greeting card and a Snickers attached.

 

Maybe that's an agenda, whatever.

 

The announcers would go further and point out how Mahomes or Watson were so good because they got the ball into tight spaces where their receivers could make a play on it.

 

The obsession some of us are showing at the Duke "drop" and the Brown missed toe tap is not to trash those receivers it's to point out exactly what you said in your post Hapless Bills Fan.  Allen IS making a lot of the throws that impress us about a Mahomes or a Rogers.  The problem, and it's been a problem all season, is that our skill players simply don't rise to the occasion and catch the DAMN ball.  They are solid WR's that at times can get open against a zone defense.  But that is NOT the same thing as play making WR's.  We simply DO NOT HAVE a play making WR or TE.

 

 

[colin]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

All these threads about specific plays is kind of what we do here: we discuss football.

 

I disagree with some of this.  Brown has laid the lumber on a number of plays this year.  For his size, he's a good blocker and he has very good hands.

 

I think the early Baltimore game was a route mismatch (Josh and Brown read what his route variation should be differently - I can't find but I believe Brown said it was his fault in one postgame interview.

 

Brown >>> Flashing Foster as a WR.

 

Brown and Beasley both struggle to open against man, and Brown can not apparently make these contested catches at all.  If the ball hits him in the hands with a DB screened off behind him and reaching forward, it's not gonna be caught.

 

Other than that, the Play was fine, thank you for asking ? and I actually agree with your final sentence.

 

 

 

 

you sure about that?  foster (and clearly it was just a hot streak that he couldn't maintain for some crazy reason, foster has talent galore but can't get it together) when he was flashing late last year was just blowing up defenses and locating the ball perfectly.

 

im not saying brown isn't better, just the height of the play that foster showed which made us all excited is a higher level than brown has played at on a consistent basis.

 

****

 

(not related to the post im quoting above) something i like to do is compare skill position players of our team top to bottom to teams we are playing.

 

except for motor, i don't think we have a single player who would make the houston squad.  none of our TEs (but i hope knox improves, in blocking and not dropping balls at least!), obv not mac or williams, not bease and i don't think even brown makes the houston squat because he'd be taking snaps away from fuller who is better.

 

for the rest of the O, i suppose our C is better, maybe spain, and dawkins would prolly be their RT.  it's insane to have that kind of a talent gap on the offensive side of the ball and make the playoffs.

[Ramza86]

He just wasnt aware on that play. 

 

Ugly play to watch...but everyone has an ugly play or two a game.

[CBennett]

Look everyone makes mistakes and I bet JB wishes he had that back..he messed up..throw was pretty much PREFECT....IF he had done his part it would still be being discussed as a awesome catch and throw...since he didnt..it gets looked at for the failure it was..

[Hapless Bills Fan]

47 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

We don't NEED better receivers per se any more than we need a better QB.  What we need are a few less mistakes per game and we got that most of the season and then in the playoff game we had more mistakes than usual (offense and defense) and it bit us in the a#@.  We need Allen and the WR's to be a little more surgical and hopefully that is just a matter of time.  We need the OL  and RB's to get better at blocking things up and Allen at recognizing pressure pre snap.  There is no reason to think that the exact same unit we fielded this year couldn't put up more points next year just by Allen having another years experience. 

 

Well, I disagree.  It's possible our WR can take a step, but all year people say "Allen struggles against man coverage".   Allen doesn't struggle against man coverage, our smurf WR do.  McDermott said it about Beasley "they did some things that took him away".  We need some WR that can't be taken away so readily.

 

John Brown struggles to make the tough catches - we saw that in Cleveland, against the Ravens, and yesterday.  I feel it's an analogous situation to 2010 where Stevie Johnson came on with Fitz and was a 1000+ yd receiver kind of because there was basically no one else.

 

We badly need a QB who plays better, and it's reasonable to think he may take a step because he did between year 1 and 2, many QB do between year 2 and 3.  He's young, he came in super-raw, and he's reputed to have a tremendous work ethic.

 

We need WR who play better - who can make contested and difficult "toe tap" catches and not get taken away by man coverage.  Brown is a 6 year vet and Beasley an  8 year vet.  That is reason to believe that they "are what they are" and are not going to suddenly become "more surgical" or anything else we didn't see this year.

 

It's very possible that Duke may take a step.  It's his first year in the NFL and he made big improvements between his first and second year in the CFL.  He expressed determination to work with John Brown this off season and come back more polished as a route runner and faster, both of which are able to be achieved.  

 

Ditto for Knox.

 

But I don't want to see the Bills counting on those steps.  I want us to have alternatives.  I'm pretty sure that's where Beane is.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

He just wasnt aware on that play. 

Ugly play to watch...but everyone has an ugly play or two a game.

 

An ugly play or two every season, sure.

Every game?  I think, not good enough.

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, GG said:

 

I'd say that he's an inconsistently good runner, as evidenced by the last play in Balt.

 

We can apply many subjective characteristics to what a #1 WR is, but the simplest one is the team's approach to the position in the offseason.  If you take a look at any offseason wish lists for the Bills, upgrading the WR position is priority #1 or # 2 on each one.  That indicates that your current #1 WR is really a true #1 .

He was facing a corner that was without question a top 5 CB in 2019 on that play. Other guys make plays too. 

[Ramza86]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I disagree.  It's possible our WR can take a step, but all year people say "Allen struggles against man coverage".   Allen doesn't struggle against man coverage, our smurf WR do.  McDermott said it about Beasley "they did some things that took him away".  We need some WR that can't be taken away so readily.

 

John Brown struggles to make the tough catches - we saw that in Cleveland, against the Ravens, and yesterday.  I feel it's an analogous situation to 2010 where Stevie Johnson came on with Fitz and was a 1000+ yd receiver kind of because there was basically no one else.

 

We badly need a QB who plays better, and it's reasonable to think he may take a step because he did between year 1 and 2, many QB do between year 2 and 3.  He's young, he came in super-raw, and he's reputed to have a tremendous work ethic.

 

We need WR who play better - who can make contested and difficult "toe tap" catches and not get taken away by man coverage.  Brown is a 6 year vet and Beasley an  8 year vet.  That is reason to believe that they "are what they are" and are not going to suddenly become "more surgical" or anything else we didn't see this year.

 

It's very possible that Duke may take a step.  It's his first year in the NFL and he made big improvements between his first and second year in the CFL.  He expressed determination to work with John Brown this off season and come back more polished as a route runner and faster, both of which are able to be achieved.  

 

Ditto for Knox.

 

But I don't want to see the Bills counting on those steps.  I want us to have alternatives.  I'm pretty sure that's where Beane is.

 

 

 

An ugly play or two every season, sure.

Every game?  I think, not good enough.

 

Your expectations are too high. Youre pretty much going to get one or two ugly plays from every player in the NFL every game.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Ramza86

[GG]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He was facing a corner that was without question a top 5 CB in 2019 on that play. Other guys make plays too. 

 

Which makes it more imperative to run a better route than the lazy stutter step.

[JerseyBills]

11 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He's a good receiver, not a #1. Your #1 knows how to make that catch.

The moment that play happened I was shocked he didn't have the awareness of the sideline. That catch and ultimately a TD there changes everything in that game.  

 

Brown can be a great # 2 though. He's a helluva WR , can run all the routes , go get an elite # 1 with him and Beez in the slot , Knox at TE and Motor in the backfield and we got some firepower on O.