John Brown failure to toe drag

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, SCBills said:

Allen was making a bunch of Mahomes throws out there.  
 

If he had Mahomes playmakers we have a 1st and Goal on that play and a TD before half. 

Yep, both that Brown throw and Dukes endzone were 100% perfect. The kid is improving.  We just have to be patient. 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Guys I consider legit #1 wide receivers-

 

hopkins

thomas

hill

evans 

Beckham jr

diggs

jones

Cooper 

allen

Golladay

adams

 

Then some young guys like dj Moore, courtland Sutton, Godwin, Mike Williams who could get there soon. So maybe 10-15 teams? Probably forgetting someone

 

A 1 by default imo. And don’t get me wrong, I love Brown. He’s got great hands and speed but he’s not the whole package. 

 

 

Well, fine, then you're not using the phrase #1 receiver the way it's meant. 

 

You picked out 11 guys or so guys you like. For reasons that aren't clear, you left out guys like Edelman, Kupp, Robinson, Moore, Lockett and probably the guys you list as close. That's a group Brown belongs in.

 

The reason the phrase is "a #1" is that it refers to whether the guy could be the best receiver, not the second best, or the third-best. It's a reasonable argument that several teams don't have a guy that deserves to be a #1, but equally several teams have two, both of whom could be considered #1s. I think it's reasonable to say that there aren't teams.

 

Wanna say Brown isn't a top ten or twelve guy? That seems to be your argument, when you look at your list. If so, fair enough. He's not. But that's not a list of #1s. It's a subjective list of who you consider the best 11 in the game. Assuming for argument's sake that those are the top 11 guys in the league then yeah, Brown isn't a top dozen guy. Fair enough.

 

But you're not using the phrase #1 receiver the way that it's meant.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

36 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Ok since you seem unable to grasp this concept: technically yes, you are correct- EVERY team has a WR1. I am speaking of a wideout who is able to make the tough catches in important moments without being wide open, who defenses have to build game plans around, who can score from anywhere, kind of guy who will extend catch radius which will be immensely helpful for a QB like Allen.

 

We don’t have a guy right now whose catch radius extends beyond the length of his arms. Or can fight through a defender and present a bigger target. Maybe Knox eventually but right now the wideouts can’t.

 

 

 

I guess you're right, I don't get the concept. Is it "tall guys I like plus Tyreek Hill"?. That concept is not the concept of "#1 receiver." 

 

You've created a type of receiver in your mind that you like and created some arbitrary rules to fence out guys who you don't like. By your rules, Tyreek Hill doesn't belong. He doesn't have a big catch radius. By your rules, if Antonio Brown was sane and in the league this year he wouldn't belong. That's nuts.

 

How you make catches is beside the point. A guy who gets open a lot, like Hill, or Antonio Brown or for that matter John Brown, is just as valuable as a guy with a big catch radius. And while it would be ideal to have a bunch of guys with complementary skills, you don't need a guy who fits your category. None of the SB winners have had one for a lot of years now.

 

That type of guy isn't more valuable than a guy who gets open and makes plenty of catches in important spots because of it. A guy like Edelman, like Hlll, like Kupp.

 

What is needed is three good receivers and maybe one more for depth. What the Bills need is a real upgrade to the guys currently behind Brown and Beasley. Whether he fits your rules is a bit beside the point. Whoever he is, he needs to be good. If he's good and also tall, that'd be just fine, but it's not a necessity.

 

There's a bizarre obsession with height among Bills fans. That obsession with height rather than talent brought us James Hardy at pick #41 in a year when Desean Jackson went at #49. But he wasn't tall. We didn't need a guy like him.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Thurman#1

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

I guess you're right, I don't get the concept. Is it "tall guys I like plus Tyreek Hill"?. That concept is not the concept of "#1 receiver." 

 

You've created a type of receiver in your mind that you like and created some arbitrary rules to fence out guys who you don't like. By your rules, Tyreek Hill doesn't belong. He doesn't have a big catch radius. By your rules, if Antonio Brown was sane and in the league this year he wouldn't belong. That's nuts.

 

How you make catches is beside the point. A guy who gets open a lot, like Hill, or Antonio Brown or for that matter John Brown, is just as valuable as a guy with a big catch radius. And while it would be ideal to have a bunch of guys with complementary skills, you don't need a guy who fits your category. None of the SB winners have had one for a lot of years now.

 

That type of guy isn't more valuable than a guy who gets open and makes plenty of catches in important spots because of it. A guy like Edelman, like Hlll, like Kupp.

 

What is needed is three good receivers and maybe one more for depth. What the Bills need is a real upgrade to the guys currently behind Brown and Beasley. Whether he fits your rules is a bit beside the point. Whoever he is, he needs to be good. If he's good and also tall, that'd be just fine, but it's not a necessity.

 

 

Wat

[OZBILLS]

We need better WRs

[1ManRaid]

4 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

That's good for 21st in the NFL for receiving yards, just fyi. He also posted catch percentage of 63...again, that's not so good. 23rd in yards per reception. 26th in yards per target. 22nd in yards per game. 

 

I said he's good. If you think those are elite numbers I don't know what to tell you. 

And what was the completion percentage of the QB throwing to him?  The other stat rankings can be explained by play calls (he got a fair number of conservative short yardage passes that are normally Beasley territory) and Allen not being able to hit a barn door on deep passes to him.

 

Lies, damn lies, and statistics as they say.

[HOUSE]

3 hours ago, OZBILLS said:

We need better WRs

 

[BillnutinHouston]

I don't think he needed to jump.  So why?

[JoPoy88]

3 minutes ago, BillnutinHouston said:

I don't think he needed to jump.  So why?

He misjudged the ball. Or the corner. One or both. The hop was bad and caused him to miss the toe tap.

[artmalibu]

I am surprised this is the first time I have seen this talked about.  While watching the game I thought he could have gotten both feet in, he misjudged it.  Just was not our day.  These things happen, but always seems to happen to us at the wrong time.  

[Sundancer]

He's a really nice W R. Couple of bad plays on Sat. He will be fine. 

[Niagara Bill]

8 hours ago, billsfan714 said:

I was thinking the exact thing as it happened.    A great receiver has the awareness to drag the toes, churn up the black rubber and probably fall forward, but makes the sacrifice of the body to make plays.   Just another example of the O needing better playmakers.   Its what separates great from average.    Playmakers make plays at key moments.

Immediately made me think of Vegas effect, he did not seem to try. WAS there a pay off

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Wat

 

 

Oh, you didn't understand? If it wasn't clear enough, I'll try to explain again.

 

You said this in explaining your rules:

 

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Ok since you seem unable to grasp this concept: technically yes, you are correct- EVERY team has a WR1. I am speaking of a wideout who is able to make the tough catches in important moments without being wide open, who defenses have to build game plans around, who can score from anywhere, kind of guy who will extend catch radius which will be immensely helpful for a QB like Allen.

 

 

Hill isn't a guy who "extends catch radius," a phrase that makes no sense by the way. He's a guy who gets open a lot with his speed and shiftiness. But he doesn't fit your rules here.

 

Sure he occasionally jumps for a ball. So has John Brown.

 

 

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

 

We don’t have a guy right now whose catch radius extends beyond the length of his arms. Or can fight through a defender and present a bigger target. Maybe Knox eventually but right now the wideouts can’t.

 

 

Wat.

 

Know whose catch radius extend beyond the length of his arms? Octopuses? Guys using long sticks with stickum on 'em. That's about it. Guys with long arms have longer reaches. Nobody catches stuff beyond their reach, though. And for sure not Tyreek Hill.

 

Nor does Tyreek Hill "fight through defenders" or anyway no more than John Brown or most smaller guys. Hill is faster and better than Brown, but he's not the kind of guy your rules describe. You include Tyreek Hill because you like him, which is fine, but he doesn't fit your own arbitrary qualifications. He's just good.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Thurman#1

[BananaSquad]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He's a good receiver, not a #1. Your #1 knows how to make that catch.

Great season but ya we need a #1 badly this offseason. 

[SunDSolar]

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

When people say "a true #1," they seem to mean a top 5 or 6 in the league guy. You're right, he's not one of those. He absolutely is one of the top 22 or 23 receivers in the league, though, and that makes him a #1.

 

And as for contested catches, that has nothing to do with being good, elite or whatever. It's only one part of being a receiver. Making catches, contested or not, that makes you a great receiver. Duke Williams makes contested catches, but he sure isn't a true #1. Receivers need to make catches. If they get open and make catches that aren't contested, that's the opposite of a problem. Plenty of great receivers don't make many contested catches.

 

Go back and look at the 5 or 6 times Brown was open long and overthrown by Allen this year. There's no doubt he's a #1.

 

 

 

 

He's not just good. There are probably 60 - 90 guys in the league who are good. He's really good.

 

Elite generally means top three or four in the league. Nobody argues he's elite. They argue that he's a #1. Because he is.

 

I like John Brown, but he is not top 22-23 in this league...   he's more in the 30-40 range.   He's a very good #2 WR 

[dave mcbride]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He's a good receiver, not a #1. Your #1 knows how to make that catch.

He IS a good receiver - a very good one. But he’s not a boundary receiver and never has been. The Bills really need one of those to pair with Brown. Yes, it would have been nice if he could have toe tapped there, but I am not going to criticize a 1A-type player for not having the complete skill set of a Hopkins or a Jones.

[Thurman#1]

6 minutes ago, SunDSolar said:

 

I like John Brown, but he is not top 22-23 in this league...   he's more in the 30-40 range.   He's a very good #2 WR 

 

 

He is absolutely a top 22 - 23 guy. All you have to do is look at his yards (21st) and TDs (tied for 24th), and his production. That's where it puts him, and again, he's being thrown to by Josh Allen, and he's on a team that throws less than most of the league.

 

He's already there and he'd be higher if Josh had hit him on say half of the 5 or 6 go routes he threw to Brown open well beyond his man but Josh overthrew him every time. Brown's a #1.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

18 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He IS a good receiver - a very good one. But he’s not a boundary receiver and never has been. The Bills really need one of those to pair with Brown. Yes, it would have been nice if he could have toe tapped there, but I am not going to criticize a 1A-type player for not having the complete skill set of a Hopkins or a Jones.

 

 

I'd disagree. He's been used a number of times on outs this year. You said, "never has been, " so I went back and the first old one I found had some good boundary play and a few leaps besides.

 

 

 

They do need another guy or two to give Josh more choices and defenses more to think about. No question. I'd guess maybe another mid-priced FA and maybe a pick in the top three rounds as well.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Thurman#1

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I'd disagree. He's been used a number of times on outs this year. You said, "never has been, " so I went back and the first old one I found had some good boundary play and a few leaps besides.

 

 

I am not saying he can’t do it; if he couldn’t, he wouldn’t be in the league. But that was a HARD (albeit doable) boundary catch given the ball’s velocity and his positioning, and that is simply not one of his apex skills. He is a speed guy who is now a good route runner. That is his game.

[SunDSolar]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

He is absolutely a top 22 - 23 guy. All you have to do is look at his yards and TDs, and his production. That's where it puts him, and again, he's being thrown to by Josh Allen, and he's on a team that throws less than most of the league.

 

He's already there and he'd be higher if Josh had hit him on say half of the 5 or 6 go routes he threw to Brown beyond his man but overthrew him every time. He's a #1.

 

In no paticular order (and i maybe forgetting a guy or 2)

 

ALL BETTER THEN BROWN (JOHN):

Edelmen

Parker

Juju

Beckham

Landry

Green

Hilton

Hopkins

AJ Brown

Sutton

Hill

Allen

Cooper

Gallup

Tate

Adams

Robinson

Thielan

Diggs

Jones (julio)

Godwin

Evans

Samuel

Sanders

Kupp

Woods

Cook

Golladay

Jones (marvin)

Lockett

Thomas

Brown (Antonio)

 

Honorable mentions(on par or a level under):

Ridley

Jeffrey

Shepard

Slayton

Mclarin

Williams (Mike)

Williams (Ty)

Watkins

Chark

Westbrook

Fuller

Metcalf

Watkins

Moore (DJ)

Crowder

Anderson (Robbie)

Gordon (Josh)

 

 

Like i said the guy is somewhere in that 30-40 range...    no way is top 23...